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Nubo
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Re: Replaced 12v Lead with 12v Lithium

Sun May 24, 2020 10:51 pm

sneaky wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 7:30 pm
... When the battery gets under 12.5v all kinds of wacky things start to happen on that Leaf. I'm surprised the dealer didn't check the battery when they were diagnosing the telematics again. Also that telematics unit that the dealer said was bad is working fine now. If my DIY project fails I'll report it, but for now, it seems like a cheap solution. ...
"wacky things" shouldn't be happening at 12.5V. But it is possible that it was a weak battery presenting a misleading reading. A lead-acid battery can have a "surface charge" that falls flat the moment a load is placed on it. I had that happen a few years ago. Wasn't until I checked it under load and saw the 12-plus volts drop to single digits... One thing EVs are missing is the automatic load-testing device in ICE cars, known as the "starter motor". 12V battery analysis circuits are cheap and should be built-in to EVs, imho, to make up for that missing functionality.
I noticed you're still working with polymers.

LeftieBiker
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Re: Replaced 12v Lead with 12v Lithium

Mon May 25, 2020 12:22 am

If no misleading surface charge is present, 12.2-12.1 volts is closer to the point at which malfunctions start to occur. My 2019 measured 12.35 volts recently, with no gremlins. Other Gen II Leafs seem to read close to that as well. It's a shame that Nissan still hasn't gotten that simple thing right, because these batteries don't have a huge amount of capacity to begin with.
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GerryAZ
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Re: Replaced 12v Lead with 12v Lithium

Mon May 25, 2020 2:43 am

Sneaky,

The brake booster failure was probably just a bad component (there have been several reported failures besides mine). I had to have the brake booster replaced on my 2015 after numerous times of CAN Bus communication errors causing brake issues. I cleared DTC's to restore proper operation until it happened one morning when the car was due for its annual battery check so I carefully drove to the dealer with strange power assist (brakes still functioned, but assist was not consistent). The dealer ended up replacing the brake booster (aftermarket warranty paid for itself this time) and there were no more issues as long as I had the car.

The first upgraded 3G telematics unit (free for 2015; $199 for 2011-2014) occasionally locked up and drained the 12V battery so I also mentioned that when I took the car in for the brake issue. The dealer replaced the 3G telematics unit with a new version (rather than just performing the firmware upgrade) and that solved the occasional 12V battery drain (no more issues as long as I had the car). Whenever the first 3G telematics unit locked up, either pulling the appropriate fuse or disconnecting the 12V battery would restore normal operation until it locked up again.

Edited to add: In your case, there may not have been an actual failure of the brake booster. CAN Bus communication errors between the ABS control module and the intelligent brake controller (brake booster assembly) can cause DTC's that indicate intelligent brake controller failure. When that happens, just clearing diagnostic trouble codes will not always restore everything to normal. I found that clearing the intermittent DTC's regarding my brake booster required a process of clearing DTC's, disconnecting 12V battery, reconnecting battery, clearing DTC's, disconnecting 12V battery again, reconnecting battery, and clearing DTC's again. It sometimes even required a third disconnect/reconnect to get all codes cleared. Therefore, you may want to keep the intelligent brake controller you removed as a spare if you still have it.
Gerry
Silver LEAF 2011 SL rear ended (totaled) by in-attentive driver 1/4/2015 at 50,422 miles
Silver LEAF 2015 SL purchased 2/7/2015; traded 8/10/2019 at 82,436 miles
White LEAF 2019 SL Plus purchased 8/10/2019

DaveinOlyWA
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Re: Replaced 12v Lead with 12v Lithium

Mon May 25, 2020 6:08 am

Nubo wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 10:51 pm
sneaky wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 7:30 pm
... When the battery gets under 12.5v all kinds of wacky things start to happen on that Leaf. I'm surprised the dealer didn't check the battery when they were diagnosing the telematics again. Also that telematics unit that the dealer said was bad is working fine now. If my DIY project fails I'll report it, but for now, it seems like a cheap solution. ...
"wacky things" shouldn't be happening at 12.5V. But it is possible that it was a weak battery presenting a misleading reading. A lead-acid battery can have a "surface charge" that falls flat the moment a load is placed on it. I had that happen a few years ago. Wasn't until I checked it under load and saw the 12-plus volts drop to single digits... One thing EVs are missing is the automatic load-testing device in ICE cars, known as the "starter motor". 12V battery analysis circuits are cheap and should be built-in to EVs, imho, to make up for that missing functionality.
Agreed. I have had mine as low as 12.18 volts (always checked in car so a small load is applied but no telematics so a very small load) and I have never had 12 volt batteries issues with any of my cars. I also avoided telematics for this reason (the reliability and usefulness of the app was the other) since its an additional drain.

I am guessing this is 12.5 volts connected?
2011 SL; 44,598 mi, 87% SOH. 2013 S; 44,840 mi, 91% SOH. 2016 S30; 29,413 mi, 99% SOH. 2018 S; 25,185 mi, SOH 92.23%. 2019 S Plus; 14,342.8 mi, 93.16% SOH
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Marktm
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Re: Replaced 12v Lead with 12v Lithium

Mon May 25, 2020 8:09 am

sneaky wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 7:30 pm
I have been overly plagued with this leaf battery problem to no end on my 2015 SL. ..........In the meantime I had been working my own DIY lithium battery solution, and had purchased a battery from Amazon for $100 "ECO-Worthy 12V 20Ah Lithium Iron Phosphate Battery, Rechargeable LiFePO4 Battery Pack". ......... The battery now stays above 13v, charges at 14.5v, everything seems fine now. When the battery gets under 12.5v all kinds of wacky things start to happen on that Leaf. I'm surprised the dealer didn't check the battery when they were diagnosing the telematics again. Also that telematics unit that the dealer said was bad is working fine now. If my DIY project fails I'll report it, but for now, it seems like a cheap solution. Amazon also has a 30ah version for $150, I probably would have got that one but it wasn't there when I got mine. Thanks to all you bloggers for sharing, maybe this helps someone as well.
What a 12V journey! So bad to spend so much time and money!

This is a copy of my post on the brake "lurch" problem I've had multiple times with my 2012 Leaf from viewtopic.php?f=30&t=28983:

"Periodically, my 2012 will start "lurching" during braking - especially when just enough braking is applied to maximize regen. At times, the final "stop" of braking also grabbed excessively - only during the final few feet of stopping. The U1511 0108 and U1232 0108 both had been thrown.

Anecdotally;
I tried the "put the brake to floor for 30 seconds" technique and it did seem to help the "grab" at stopping, but no affect on the surge/lurge at speed. I then measured the settled 12 volt system voltage at 12.4 volts - very low for a FLA battery - so definitely in need of an external recharge. Over last weekend, I set up 2, 2 amp chargers and let them charge. I finished with a 15 amp (40 year old) charger for a day. The result is NO SURGE, NO LURCH - yet. No "grab" either. At first sign of any return surge, I'll measure the settled voltage again, and recharge again. We'll see.

Next post:
Not wanting to start a "lurch" war, but I've had years of Chevy Suburban bad/warped rotors and know exactly how that "cycle" feels - at essentially every braking event above certain speeds. The regen/braking "lurch" of my Leaf is very different and distinctive as it cycles at much less frequency than a warped rotor. Again, it's anecdotal, but twice I've been able to completely eliminate the "lurch" by charging up the 12 volt system - and totally eliminates the problem - for a while!

How that regen "lurch" is generated - no idea :mrgreen:"

Back to this post!
Today it measured 12.25 "settled" volts on my FLA battery (Jan 2019 replaced the original). I drive this vehicle almost everyday - charge it about every other day - 80% early morning charge. Voltage during initial charge cycle was over 14v, coming down within a hour to slightly over 13v. I need to load test the battery, but I don't believe it is bad (yet). the brake "lurch" has not come back yet, however, the final stop "grab" is starting to.

I'll keep monitoring, however, at this juncture, I have to conclude the the 2012 leaf (12v ) charge profile is quite bad, leads to funky brake problems, probably not bad enough to ruin FLA batteries quickly (the light duty on the battery may be the savior). BTW, I have never signed up for the wifi service (not even sure what it is called for the 2012 - the problematic "telematics"?
2012 Leaf SL; 46,000 miles. Battery replaced November 1st, 2016.

LeftieBiker
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Re: Replaced 12v Lead with 12v Lithium

Mon May 25, 2020 12:20 pm

Today it measured 12.25 "settled" volts on my FLA battery (Jan 2019 replaced the original). I drive this vehicle almost everyday - charge it about every other day - 80% early morning charge. Voltage during initial charge cycle was over 14v, coming down within a hour to slightly over 13v. I need to load test the battery, but I don't believe it is bad (yet). the brake "lurch" has not come back yet, however, the final stop "grab" is starting to.
Do you use the climate control regularly, or do you keep it turned off to stop the heater from sucking power in cooler weather? The reason I ask is that there is some anecdotal evidence that using the climate control results in the 12 volt battery getting charged more.
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2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
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PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

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Marktm
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Re: Replaced 12v Lead with 12v Lithium

Tue May 26, 2020 6:20 am

LeftieBiker wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 12:20 pm
Do you use the climate control regularly, or do you keep it turned off to stop the heater from sucking power in cooler weather? The reason I ask is that there is some anecdotal evidence that using the climate control results in the 12 volt battery getting charged more.
Hardly ever use the climate control during our (short) winter, however just starting to use the A/C this spring. I have not modified the control circuit to remove the resistance heater energy hog, but do mess with the temp setting to minimize it's energy use (seems the control logic is quite convoluted!). This latest reading of 12.25 volts was surprising to me as it is so low that sulfation could be a problem relatively quickly.

Curious - has anyone been able to effectively and continuously log 12v system amperes and voltages at the battery terminals? Don't believe LeafSpy can be used as the CAN bus is shutdown when "ignition is off". This log could be used to analyze the variation of SOC quite easily under various op conditions - and look for excessive "phantom" loads. I'll do some research.
2012 Leaf SL; 46,000 miles. Battery replaced November 1st, 2016.

lorenfb
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Re: Replaced 12v Lead with 12v Lithium

Tue May 26, 2020 7:38 am

Marktm wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 6:20 am

Curious - has anyone been able to effectively and continuously log 12v system amperes and voltages at the battery terminals? Don't believe LeafSpy can be used as the CAN bus is shutdown when "ignition is off". This log could be used to analyze the variation of SOC quite easily under various op conditions - and look for excessive "phantom" loads. I'll do some research.
Try one of these; https://antigravitybatteries.com/produc ... lead-acid/

Bought one and very happy with its logging ability and screen displays. It draws about a milliampere (about 2% of the typical Leaf sleep current).
Although it doesn't provide battery load currents, random battery voltage drops will provide some insight of random loads turning on, e.g. a TCU.
#1 Leaf SL MY 9/13: 76K miles, 47 Ahrs, 5.0 miles/kWh (average), Hx=70, SOH=73, L2 - 100% > 1000, temp < 95F, (DOD) > 20 Ahrs
#2 Leaf SL MY 12/18: 10.3K miles, SOH 109Ahrs/115Ahrs, 5.2 miles/kWh (average), DOD > 20%, temp < 105F

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Stanton
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Re: Replaced 12v Lead with 12v Lithium

Tue May 26, 2020 8:00 am

lorenfb wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 7:38 am

Try one of these; https://antigravitybatteries.com/produc ... lead-acid/

Bought one and very happy with its logging ability and screen displays. It draws about a milliampere (about 2% of the typical Leaf sleep current).
Although it doesn't provide battery load currents, random battery voltage drops will provide some insight of random loads turning on, e.g. a TCU.
Thanks for the post/link!
I think I'm going to give it (Lithium version) a try. I have had very good luck with my LiFePo4 battery (I started this thread), but have always wondered if/when the TCU activates and/or the 12v charges.
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knightmb
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Re: Replaced 12v Lead with 12v Lithium

Thu Sep 17, 2020 11:06 pm

Here is another reason why Lithium might work out better for you. Without having to read dozens of pages back in this topic, just know that my wife and I both have a leaf from the same year/model (2013 SV), where I went the Lithium 12v battery route many years ago and she stayed with the lead acid not thinking it worth the few hundred dollars to change it. Well, she has been through a few lead acid batteries and I have been on the same Lithium for years. That much was already posted here long ago.

Well today, I had to replace the under shield of the Leaf because she hit an animal and damaged/broke the shield. To my surprise, all that acid from the 12v battery has rusted out the frame and destroyed the paint on it. I'm going to see if I can get that rust off and repaint it, but when I checked my car out of curiosity, my frame was still in flawless paint condition.

Image of the damage, the path follows directly from the drain of the battery where acid has leaked out and spilled down the side, drained down into the lower frame area of the Leaf.
Image

Under-shield rust stains.
Image
2013 Leaf SV

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