Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

[smkettner]

It may take some effort but if you have a place to park an EV, you have a place to charge an EV.

[GRA]

It may take some effort but if you have a place to park an EV, you have a place to charge an EV.

Depends. I have a driveway and could charge L1 by running a 50' extension cord out a door or window, hopefully not causing a fire in the residential grade receptacle or any of the wiring inside my wall. I know two BEV households in my neighborhood who do this year round. For reasons which I hope are obvious, I don't consider this an acceptable solution during the heating season.

Those who live in multi-unit buildings rarely have even that option, especially if they don't have a dedicated parking space. When one of my girlfriends lived in S.F., she often couldn't find a legal on-street parking space closer than six blocks away. As she was working swing shift at the time, there was no way in hell she was going to walk that far by herself at that time of night, so she parked in bus stops instead and hoped her alarm would wake her early enough to catch a free spot as the early starters headed to work, but before the bus drivers could call in and she'd get a ticket. She had an impressive total of parking fines.

S.F. and NYC are the only two U.S. Cities to have population densities typical of European ones, with a high percentage of the population living in MUDs., European cities don't come close to the densities of the average Asian city, where most of the world's car sales growth will be happening over the next few decades.

[Oils4AsphaultOnly]

To repeat for the umpteenth time, H2 doesn't have to be cheaper than RE, it only has to be competitive with gas/diesel, which is the goal. Anything beyond that is gravy.




Seeing as how the only thing preventing you from doing so is the lack of an H2 filling station or two along the way, while FCEV a/c will have a lot of testing and certification to do before any passenger can fly on one, I'd say you've got it bass-ackwards.




And yet, despite electricity being usually cheaper than gas (not for me at retail chargers), ICEs dominate because of the capability they provide. BEVs will improve, but at the moment FCEVs also provide greater capability.

BTW, when talking about a/c you ignore FCEV trains, which are already in commercial service in Europe. The justification for them here is much greater given our much lower population density, which makes track electrification uneconomic bar a few routes like the NE corridor. Then there's ocean-going shipping.





The thing is, the typical car buyer wants about as much range as I do, certainly at least 300+ no worries miles plus a reserve in any conditions, for as long as they keep the car. Which is what virtually all ICE models provide.





380 mile range Hyundai Nexo Blue FCEV CUV base MSRP $58,735, with a real range greater than the $74,990 base MSRP '400 mile' Model S offered by Tesla, because unlike the Tesla I can freely fill it up and and if I wish drain the tank (not that I would, as an emergency reserve is there for a reason) every time if I want without having to worry about causing long-term degradation. The new Mirai will apparently exceed 400 miles, being considerably more slippery than the Nexo.

A better comparison for the Nexo size-wise is with the 316 mile, $52,990 base MSRP Model Y (Edit: new MSRP $49,990); again, Mod. Y real range will be less, unless you're so wealthy you simply don't care about degradation.

Tesla specifically recommends not charging to more than 90%, and you don't get full Regen either if you do go above that level. As we all know, battery longevity is maximised by limiting the SoC range.

No comment on the Model Y SR being cancelled and the reason given by Tesla, which flies directly in the face of your contention that range isn't compelling? The silence is deafening.

To repeat, the only thing preventing FCEVs from being practical ICE car replacements is whether and when RE H2 prices can be made competitive with gas/diesel. The car and infrastructure costs will drop due to economies of scale, and as noted in the IHS Markit link have been doing so significantly over the last several years despite the low numbers of both.

It's replies like this and to the others that show how anti-BEV you are and how you are NOT an effective advocate for EV's in general. You flat out don't get how most people can _conveniently_ own BEV's, with today's choices. That 44% not having a garage is a complete red herring, and you don't even understand why. You're completely ignorant of what living with a BEV is like. I wonder if you're one of the last users of flip-phones before being forced out when they stopped making them?

I notice you didn't answer my question re what choice you'd make in the same situation

It's not 44% not having a garage, it's 44% not being able to charge at home in the U.S. The percentage is a lot higher in other countries with higher population densities, i.e. more people living in apartments/townhomes etc. The source for the U.S. data was a survey conducted by Plug-in America a few years ago. I guess they must be anti-BEV too.

As to flip phones, only got a smart phone last year. As I don't make phone calls anymore owing to my hearing, the only thing I used a phone for was texting and I did very little of it, but a smart phone's easier for that. The flip phone was smaller, lighter and more rugged, though,which made it easier to carry in the backcountry for emergencies.

OTOH my smartphone has GPS and I've got a nav/map app for it, which makes it fun to play with (and all too seductive, like many computer programs). As I learned to navigate using map, compass, altimeter and my brain decades ago the phone's non-essential and, being fragile and dependent on batteries, not to be depended on, and I prefer to get away from people who are constantly using theirs in the backcountry in any case.

When my last laptop died I realized just how much time I was spending on it at home, so didn't replace it and dropped internet service, resolving that I'd only use library computers from then on for private email etc., as they have time limits and I'd have to walk over there to use them.

I spend enough time at work on a computer to not want to also be spending most of my free time on one. The smart phone's been essential for the last few months though, as the libraries have all been shut since mid-March. I even considered getting myself another computer but so far have resisted it, even though typing replies like this on my phone is a royal pain.

That's because it's a false choice with self-created constraints. "I" would choose "C", install an outlet in my driveway and buy a Tesla/Bolt/Ariya, and then use it for all the trips that I normally would've carpooled in, because I'd actually be reducing the emissions from both my usage as well as my buddy's. 2000 miles a year is simply the miles accumulated in my vehicle, not the actual number of miles I've driven/ridden.

[smkettner]

It may take some effort but if you have a place to park an EV, you have a place to charge an EV.

Depends. I have a driveway and could charge L1 by running a 50' extension cord out a door or window, hopefully not causing a fire in the residential grade receptacle or any of the wiring inside my wall. I know two BEV households in my neighborhood who do this year round. For reasons which I hope are obvious, I don't consider this an acceptable solution during the heating season.

Some actual effort besides jumping it off your holiday lights. Sheesh. Tell your neighbors the same.

The commitment must come from all... not just the government like hydrogen.

People will spend tons of money on frivolity and can't get an electrician for something real. Pathetic.

[WetEV]

Unlike the U.S., most of the world's car owners don't live in detached single family homes with private garages. FTM, as noted previously 44% of U S. households can't charge at home either. If you can, great, some kind of PEV could work for you.

You don't need a detached single family home with a private garage to have an L1 station by your parking spot on a driveway or the street.

As I've pointed out, it will be enormously expensive and time consuming to build all those charging stations.

As I have repeatedly replied, we don't have do all of those charging stations right away. To which I hear...crickets.

As I have repeatedly replied, some of those charging stations are very cheap, some are very expensive. And all I hear from you is about the expensive ones.

Estimating the cost of most expensive and multiplying by the number needed is not going to get a realistic answer.

44% have garages, and many can charge at home at zero installation cost. Some might need an outlet installed. Some might even need L2 installed. All of these are far cheaper than hydrogen filling stations. All of these are more convenient than hydrogen filling stations. Mostly no cost, or less than $1000 per car. Most are ready today, and the rest could be installed by next Thursday.

Many drivers have private parking spaces, and can charge at home with zero installation cost. More would need an exterior outlet installed, or L2 installed. All of thest are far cheaper than hydrogen filling stations. All of these are more convenient than hydrogen filling staitons. Cost range from zero to perhaps a few thousand.

Many drivers that don't have private parking spaces or garages go to work at places that could install charging fairly cheaply.

So yes, not everyone can get charging cheaply. But a large fraction, well more than 50%, can get charging fairly reasonably and quickly. Focusing on the renter in Boston's Back Bay section is really pointless.

I'm a firm believer in picking low-hanging fruit first, which is why I think we need to provide public charging in parking lots and garages first. There's such a city-owned lot 2 blocks from me. And far more workplaces have parking lots or garages they could install charging in, such as cwerdna has access to. So why do you think it hasn't happened faster?

Because that is not the low-hanging fruit. And not addressing the actual needs of BEV drivers.

Why are you so anti-BEV?

As noted in numerous replies to others I'm not, nor am I pro-H2/FCEV. I believe both along with biofuels have a part to play in getting off fossil fuels, but that doesn't blind me to the fact that there are enormous obstacles to success in the way of each of them.

Which might be interesting if you understood the advantages and disadvantages of BEVs, at minimum. You either don't, and don't want to learn, or just hate the whole idea. Hard to tell the difference.

[WetEV]

That 44% number needs some thought. Perhaps the original source reference would be valuable in decoding exactly what this number means. And how it was calculated.


This is for the year 2000, and buildings don't change that fast.

https://www.census.gov/hhes/www/housing ... units.html

Housing units, not buildings or people. Or EVs.

1, detached 1, attached 2 to 4 5 or more Mobile home Other
Number Percent Number Percent Number Percent Number Percent Number Percent Number Percent
United States 69,865,957 60.3% 6,447,453 5.6% 10,489,630 9.1% 20,059,76 17.3% 8,779,228 7.6% 262,610 0.2%

Most of the 60.3% + 5.6% of single units of housing likely have dedicated parking. Likewise, many of the 9.1% of 2-4 units will have some type of dedicated parking. Mobile homes likely have dedicated parking.

So the issue is mostly in the 17.3% 5 or more units.

[GRA]

It's replies like this and to the others that show how anti-BEV you are and how you are NOT an effective advocate for EV's in general. You flat out don't get how most people can _conveniently_ own BEV's, with today's choices. That 44% not having a garage is a complete red herring, and you don't even understand why. You're completely ignorant of what living with a BEV is like. I wonder if you're one of the last users of flip-phones before being forced out when they stopped making them?

I notice you didn't answer my question re what choice you'd make in the same situation

It's not 44% not having a garage, it's 44% not being able to charge at home in the U.S. The percentage is a lot higher in other countries with higher population densities, i.e. more people living in apartments/townhomes etc. The source for the U.S. data was a survey conducted by Plug-in America a few years ago. I guess they must be anti-BEV too.



When my last laptop died I realized just how much time I was spending on it at home, so didn't replace it and dropped internet service, resolving that I'd only use library computers from then on for private email etc., as they have time limits and I'd have to walk over there to use them.

That's because it's a false choice with self-created constraints. "I" would choose "C", install an outlet in my driveway and buy a Tesla/Bolt/Ariya, and then use it for all the trips that I normally would've carpooled in, because I'd actually be reducing the emissions from both my usage as well as my buddy's. 2000 miles a year is simply the miles accumulated in my vehicle, not the actual number of miles I've driven/ridden.

I take it 'you' own your townhouse; I rent, so unlike you installing a charging circuit isn't my call. My landlord says he's willing to do so, but saying it costs him nothing - we'll see how he feels when the time comes, as he's also going to have to replace the service entrance.

We all have constraints, self-created
and otherwise.

BTW, I'm still waiting for you to tell me what my QCptions are if the Ely charger is down. Which it is, as both of the last two check-ins (Apr. 21st & Today) say it is, abd Greenlots has now posted this on Plugshare:

Thank you for sharing your experience at this charger. We are looking into the negative checkins regarding station ID 53071 not booting back up. We will be following up with each driver individually. -Greenlots

Oh, but before we even get to Ely we're reliant on Tonopah. Let's see how things have been at the single QC there, shall we:

Wizmad
Chevrolet Bolt EV
No response from screen
Jun 26, 2020
Finn
Jun 14, 2020
chillyvenom
Nissan LEAF
Out of service
Jun 7, 2020
Scout205
Chevrolet Bolt EV
Thankfully it's only 92 miles to Beatty
Jun 7, 2020
Scout205
Chevrolet Bolt EV
Same issue as 2 months ago

Yessir, another sterling example of a single QC station which can be relied on to be operational.

But wait, there's more! In order to get to Tonopah, I first have to depend on the single QC at Rush Creek Lodge being both working and available. Surely I can do that?

Jul 21, 2020
davehica
2019 Niro EV
Jul 18, 2020
Steve E
Chevrolet Bolt EV
DC charger would not initialize Friday afternoon. Chargepoint rep said she put in a service ticket, but not to depend on it when I came back through Sunday. While I was on the phone FOUR other cars pulled up wanting to use it. Even if they fix it, it'll be oversubscribed on weekends. I checked and it still wouldn't initialize Sunday afternoon.
Jul 3, 2020
dhazeghi
Chevrolet Bolt EV
Place is packed. Waited an hour for the L2 charger (arrived 7:20am). There’s a silver Tesla 3 sitting at the DCFC, fully charged.
Jun 25, 2020
Pigwich
Chevrolet Bolt EV
Successful charges documented as of June 23, 2020 on Plugshare site

Let's be generous and assume it's working. As the sole QC on 120 east of Oakdale on the main route to/through Yosemite, as Steve e says, it's going to be in high demand. The fact that it's at a resort doesn't help, as resort guests will likely use it as well (there's also 1 or 2 L2s there, forget which. Plugshare says 1, but ISTR 2 when I checked the place out last fall); indeed, many BEV owners will probably choose to stay there because of the chargers.

So, that's 3 single-point failure sites in a row, which have a recent history of being unreliable, and even when working will draw BEVs like moths to a flame, there being no other options in the area.

[GRA]

It may take some effort but if you have a place to park an EV, you have a place to charge an EV.

Depends. I have a driveway and could charge L1 by running a 50' extension cord out a door or window, hopefully not causing a fire in the residential grade receptacle or any of the wiring inside my wall. I know two BEV households in my neighborhood who do this year round. For reasons which I hope are obvious, I don't consider this an acceptable solution during the heating season.

Some actual effort besides jumping it off your holiday lights. Sheesh. Tell your neighbors the same.

The commitment must come from all... not just the government like hydrogen.

People will spend tons of money on frivolity and can't get an electrician for something real. Pathetic.

You assume that both my neighbors and I own. I don't, and expect they don't either.

[GRA]

You don't need a detached single family home with a private garage to have an L1 station by your parking spot on a driveway or the street.

As I've pointed out, it will be enormously expensive and time consuming to build all those charging stations.

As I have repeatedly replied, we don't have do all of those charging stations right away. To which I hear...crickets.

As I have repeatedly replied, some of those charging stations are very cheap, some are very expensive. And all I hear from you is about the expensive ones.

Estimating the cost of most expensive and multiplying by the number needed is not going to get a realistic answer.

44% have garages, and many can charge at home at zero installation cost. Some might need an outlet installed. Some might even need L2 installed. All of these are far cheaper than hydrogen filling stations. All of these are more convenient than hydrogen filling stations. Mostly no cost, or less than $1000 per car. Most are ready today, and the rest could be installed by next Thursday.

Many drivers have private parking spaces, and can charge at home with zero installation cost. More would need an exterior outlet installed, or L2 installed. All of thest are far cheaper than hydrogen filling stations. All of these are more convenient than hydrogen filling staitons. Cost range from zero to perhaps a few thousand.

Many drivers that don't have private parking spaces or garages go to work at places that could install charging fairly cheaply.

So yes, not everyone can get charging cheaply. But a large fraction, well more than 50%, can get charging fairly reasonably and quickly. Focusing on the renter in Boston's Back Bay section is really pointless.

I'm a firm believer in picking low-hanging fruit first, which is why I think we need to provide public charging in parking lots and garages first. There's such a city-owned lot 2 blocks from me. And far more workplaces have parking lots or garages they could install charging in, such as cwerdna has access to. So why do you think it hasn't happened faster?

Because that is not the low-hanging fruit. And not addressing the actual needs of BEV drivers.

Of course it is. Every study I've read says the cheapest installs for those who can't charge at home (bar new construction) are in just the places I've mentioned. Do you have other info? New construction MUDs can be mandated to be prepped for charging, as California has done, but retrofits are exoensivet.

Grocery store and mall parking are good too, although grocery stores probably need QCs rather than L2 given the short dwell time; same goes for drug stores. The nearest dying mall to me has made a token effort, installing a total of four L2s in their thousands of mostly unused spaces.

Not that car parking is the best use of all that asphalt: building mixed use housing & essential services would be a much more energy-efficient and environmentally friendly re-purposing of the acreage. Far better to eliminate the need for most people to own cars altogether, than worry so much about the kind of cars they drive.

Why are you so anti-BEV?

As noted in numerous replies to others I'm not, nor am I pro-H2/FCEV. I believe both along with biofuels have a part to play in getting off fossil fuels, but that doesn't blind me to the fact that there are enormous obstacles to success in the way of each of them.

Which might be interesting if you understood the advantages and disadvantages of BEVs, at minimum. You either don't, and don't want to learn, or just hate the whole idea. Hard to tell the difference.

Which is your incorrect perception. Let's check, shall we?

Advantages:

Highest efficiency.

Good convenience for daily use for those who have a guaranteed, convenient place to charge at home,work or elsewhere.

Related to above, currently most options for energy replenishment.

Currently lowest initial cost alternative (albeit with less capability).

Probably lowest fueling cost, at least if charging at home.

Disadvantages:

Shorter range than other options, esp. in cold weather.

Longer energy replenishment times.

Lacks lifetime durability of the battery probably requiring replacement at least once which boosts TCO, degradation may seriously constrain use as it ages. Alternatively, treat car as throwaway item.

People who can't charge at home have to spend more time replenishing energy in places they may not wish to be, than other options. Renters are most impacted.

Away from home or major urban areas/transportation routes, energy replenishment options are often seriously limited and often of questionable reliability (this is true for now for all AFVs to varying degrees).

Limited production capability at the moment, possible material resource constraints long term.

Offhand that's the major areas. Feel free to critique. I can do the same for the others as well and have done so many times previously but since you're accusing me of being unaware of the advantages/disadvantages of BEVs, let's stick to them.

BTW, no comment on S. Korea's plans? Rather than trying to convince me, shouldn't you be trying to convince them, the EU, China etc.?

[GRA]

Both GCC:

Snam and Baker Hughes test world’s first hydrogen blend turbine for gas networks

https://www.greencarcongress.com/2020/0 ... -snam.html

. . . The test paves the way to implement adoption of hydrogen blended with natural gas in Snam’s current transmission network infrastructure.

The test took place at Baker Hughes’ facility in Florence, Italy with a Baker Hughes’ NovaLT12 gas turbine. The test marks the first time that a gas infrastructure operator such as Snam has tested this type of turbine for its existing assets.

Designed by Baker Hughes, the NovaLT is the industry’s first family of high-performance gas turbines inherently designed for hydrogen as well as other lower-carbon fuels. . . .

Baker Hughes’ NovaLT12 turbines can burn up to 30% hydrogen in dry low emission (DLN) mode; the company is moving toward 100% H2 capability. . . .

The turbine will be installed by 2021 at Snam’s compressor station of Istrana, in the province of Treviso, Italy. Once installed, the NovaLT12 will not only help to compress and move hydrogen fuel blends through Snam’s transmission network of pipelines, but the turbine will simultaneously use the same fuel to power itself.

Snam has the most extensive transmission network among European peers (more than 41,000 km globally) and the largest natural gas storage capacity (ca. 20 billion cubic meters globally). Today, 70% of Snam’s pipelines are already built with hydrogen-ready pipes to help contribute to the reduction of CO2 emissions in Italy. Today’s test further validates the viability of Snam’s infrastructure, including the NovaLT12, to support the transition to hydrogen.

blending 10% hydrogen into the total annual gas capacity transported by Snam, it is estimated seven billion cubic meters of hydrogen could be introduced into the network each year. This amount is the equivalent to the annual gas consumption of three million families and represents a reduction of five million tons of CO2 emissions. . . .

DOE announces approximately $64M in funding for 18 projects to advance H2@Scale

https://www.greencarcongress.com/2020/0 ... scale.html

. . . These projects will fuel the next round of research, development, and demonstration (RD&D) activities under H2@Scale’s multi-year initiative to fully realize hydrogen’s benefits across the economy. . . .

The projects will feature
collaborations with EERE’s Advanced Manufacturing Office on manufacturing reliable and affordable electrolyzers and with EERE’s Vehicle Technologies Office on developing low-cost, high-strength carbon fiber for hydrogen storage tanks. Other areas of focus include identifying durable and cost-effective fuel cell systems and components for medium- and heavy-duty trucks.

investment will also spur demonstrations of large-scale hydrogen utilization at ports and data centers and across industrial sectors like steel making. Additionally, these efforts will help build a comprehensive training program that will lay the foundation for a robust hydrogen and fuel cells workforce in the United States. . . .

There's a list of each project and the award amount.