Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

[smkettner]

You assume that both my neighbors and I own. I don't, and expect they don't either.

Did you even ask your landlord? How long do you plan to rent?

Yes I am amazed that none of my tenants have even inquired about EV charging.

[Oils4AsphaultOnly]

I notice you didn't answer my question re what choice you'd make in the same situation

It's not 44% not having a garage, it's 44% not being able to charge at home in the U.S. The percentage is a lot higher in other countries with higher population densities, i.e. more people living in apartments/townhomes etc. The source for the U.S. data was a survey conducted by Plug-in America a few years ago. I guess they must be anti-BEV too.



When my last laptop died I realized just how much time I was spending on it at home, so didn't replace it and dropped internet service, resolving that I'd only use library computers from then on for private email etc., as they have time limits and I'd have to walk over there to use them.

That's because it's a false choice with self-created constraints. "I" would choose "C", install an outlet in my driveway and buy a Tesla/Bolt/Ariya, and then use it for all the trips that I normally would've carpooled in, because I'd actually be reducing the emissions from both my usage as well as my buddy's. 2000 miles a year is simply the miles accumulated in my vehicle, not the actual number of miles I've driven/ridden.

I take it 'you' own your townhouse; I rent, so unlike you installing a charging circuit isn't my call. My landlord says he's willing to do so, but saying it costs him nothing - we'll see how he feels when the time comes, as he's also going to have to replace the service entrance.

We all have constraints, self-created
and otherwise.

BTW, I'm still waiting for you to tell me what my QCptions are if the Ely charger is down. Which it is, as both of the last two check-ins (Apr. 21st & Today) say it is, abd Greenlots has now posted this on Plugshare:

Thank you for sharing your experience at this charger. We are looking into the negative checkins regarding station ID 53071 not booting back up. We will be following up with each driver individually. -Greenlots

Oh, but before we even get to Ely we're reliant on Tonopah. Let's see how things have been at the single QC there, shall we:

Wizmad
Chevrolet Bolt EV
No response from screen
Jun 26, 2020
Finn
Jun 14, 2020
chillyvenom
Nissan LEAF
Out of service
Jun 7, 2020
Scout205
Chevrolet Bolt EV
Thankfully it's only 92 miles to Beatty
Jun 7, 2020
Scout205
Chevrolet Bolt EV
Same issue as 2 months ago

Yessir, another sterling example of a single QC station which can be relied on to be operational.

But wait, there's more! In order to get to Tonopah, I first have to depend on the single QC at Rush Creek Lodge being both working and available. Surely I can do that?

Jul 21, 2020
davehica
2019 Niro EV
Jul 18, 2020
Steve E
Chevrolet Bolt EV
DC charger would not initialize Friday afternoon. Chargepoint rep said she put in a service ticket, but not to depend on it when I came back through Sunday. While I was on the phone FOUR other cars pulled up wanting to use it. Even if they fix it, it'll be oversubscribed on weekends. I checked and it still wouldn't initialize Sunday afternoon.
Jul 3, 2020
dhazeghi
Chevrolet Bolt EV
Place is packed. Waited an hour for the L2 charger (arrived 7:20am). There’s a silver Tesla 3 sitting at the DCFC, fully charged.
Jun 25, 2020
Pigwich
Chevrolet Bolt EV
Successful charges documented as of June 23, 2020 on Plugshare site

Let's be generous and assume it's working. As the sole QC on 120 east of Oakdale on the main route to/through Yosemite, as Steve e says, it's going to be in high demand. The fact that it's at a resort doesn't help, as resort guests will likely use it as well (there's also 1 or 2 L2s there, forget which. Plugshare says 1, but ISTR 2 when I checked the place out last fall); indeed, many BEV owners will probably choose to stay there because of the chargers.

So, that's 3 single-point failure sites in a row, which have a recent history of being unreliable, and even when working will draw BEVs like moths to a flame, there being no other options in the area.

Just so we're clear. Your landlord offered to pay for the charger install and you think he'll change his mind?!?! That's your excuse?!?!

As for Ely, there are 3 L2 stations in the town (including a KOA campsite) in addition to the CCS at the Shell station. Weren't you going to bivouac partway anyway? Why not stop there to charge overnight? If the CCS is down, just L2 charge enough to do your hike and check back in the following day or so on your way out? Oh, you don't want to stop for an hour after 9 hrs of driving? Well I guess you've won that argument, haven't you?

[GRA]

That 44% number needs some thought. Perhaps the original source reference would be valuable in decoding exactly what this number means. And how it was calculated.


This is for the year 2000, and buildings don't change that fast.

https://www.census.gov/hhes/www/housing ... units.html

Housing units, not buildings or people. Or EVs.

1, detached 1, attached 2 to 4 5 or more Mobile home Other
Number Percent Number Percent Number Percent Number Percent Number Percent Number Percent
United States 69,865,957 60.3% 6,447,453 5.6% 10,489,630 9.1% 20,059,76 17.3% 8,779,228 7.6% 262,610 0.2%

Most of the 60.3% + 5.6% of single units of housing likely have dedicated parking. Likewise, many of the 9.1% of 2-4 units will have some type of dedicated parking. Mobile homes likely have dedicated parking.

So the issue is mostly in the 17.3% 5 or more units.

Haven't been able to track down the P-I A survey yet, but here's another that has similar results (54/46% can/can't vs. 56/44% for the P-I A one): https://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic. ... in#p462519


Here's a 2018 McKinsey article which talks about the different types of charging that will predominate, by country and also income demographic:

Charging ahead: Electric-vehicle infrastructure demand

https://www.mckinsey.com/industries/aut ... ure-demand


BTW, one of the reasons I'm partial to PHEVs at this time is that, aside from being the only AFV tech that currently provides a complete replacement for ICEs, and their lower purchase price, they can pretty easily be fully charged overnight via L1, even at say 8 instead of 12A, which is not only safer if using a non-dedicated circuit (if still illegal), but also eliminates the need for and cost of a 240V EVSE and its circuit.

As cost of PEVs is usually the biggest reason given for lack of purchase, anything we can do to reduce the price and hassle is critical. As you say, L1 is cheaper than L2, if less efficient.

[GRA]

That's because it's a false choice with self-created constraints. "I" would choose "C", install an outlet in my driveway and buy a Tesla/Bolt/Ariya, and then use it for all the trips that I normally would've carpooled in, because I'd actually be reducing the emissions from both my usage as well as my buddy's. 2000 miles a year is simply the miles accumulated in my vehicle, not the actual number of miles I've driven/ridden.

I take it 'you' own your townhouse; I rent, so unlike you installing a charging circuit isn't my call. My landlord says he's willing to do so, but saying it costs him nothing - we'll see how he feels when the time comes, as he's also going to have to replace the service entrance.

We all have constraints, self-created
and otherwise.

BTW, I'm still waiting for you to tell me what my QCptions are if the Ely charger is down. Which it is, as both of the last two check-ins (Apr. 21st & Today) say it is, abd Greenlots has now posted this on Plugshare:

Thank you for sharing your experience at this charger. We are looking into the negative checkins regarding station ID 53071 not booting back up. We will be following up with each driver individually. -Greenlots

Oh, but before we even get to Ely we're reliant on Tonopah. Let's see how things have been at the single QC there, shall we:

Wizmad
Chevrolet Bolt EV
No response from screen
Jun 26, 2020
Finn
Jun 14, 2020
chillyvenom
Nissan LEAF
Out of service
Jun 7, 2020
Scout205
Chevrolet Bolt EV
Thankfully it's only 92 miles to Beatty
Jun 7, 2020
Scout205
Chevrolet Bolt EV
Same issue as 2 months ago

Yessir, another sterling example of a single QC station which can be relied on to be operational.

But wait, there's more! In order to get to Tonopah, I first have to depend on the single QC at Rush Creek Lodge being both working and available. Surely I can do that?

Jul 21, 2020
davehica
2019 Niro EV
Jul 18, 2020
Steve E
Chevrolet Bolt EV
DC charger would not initialize Friday afternoon. Chargepoint rep said she put in a service ticket, but not to depend on it when I came back through Sunday. While I was on the phone FOUR other cars pulled up wanting to use it. Even if they fix it, it'll be oversubscribed on weekends. I checked and it still wouldn't initialize Sunday afternoon.
Jul 3, 2020
dhazeghi
Chevrolet Bolt EV
Place is packed. Waited an hour for the L2 charger (arrived 7:20am). There’s a silver Tesla 3 sitting at the DCFC, fully charged.
Jun 25, 2020
Pigwich
Chevrolet Bolt EV
Successful charges documented as of June 23, 2020 on Plugshare site

Let's be generous and assume it's working. As the sole QC on 120 east of Oakdale on the main route to/through Yosemite, as Steve e says, it's going to be in high demand. The fact that it's at a resort doesn't help, as resort guests will likely use it as well (there's also 1 or 2 L2s there, forget which. Plugshare says 1, but ISTR 2 when I checked the place out last fall); indeed, many BEV owners will probably choose to stay there because of the chargers.

So, that's 3 single-point failure sites in a row, which have a recent history of being unreliable, and even when working will draw BEVs like moths to a flame, there being no other options in the area.

Just so we're clear. Your landlord offered to pay for the charger install and you think he'll change his mind?!?! That's your excuse?!?!

He was also going to install PV at the same time, and asked me to do the calcs for him. When I told him he was looking at a 7-8 year payback for the PV, he decided that he'd pass. Unlike the PV, installing a new service entrance, a dedicated charging circuit and protection has no payback for him, as utilities are included in my rent (I share the main house's meter, so there's no way to separate usage out. He has no interest in installing a second meter). And about the time we were talking about doing all this, the city government passed a rent control ordinance, so it's not as if he could jack my rent to cover it. I'm willing to cover part of the installation cost once a BEV makes sense for me, so we may be able to come to a deal yet, but there's no guarantee.

As for Ely, there are 3 L2 stations in the town (including a KOA campsite) in addition to the CCS at the Shell station. Weren't you going to bivouac partway anyway? Why not stop there to charge overnight? If the CCS is down, just L2 charge enough to do your hike and check back in the following day or so on your way out? Oh, you don't want to stop for an hour after 9 hrs of driving? Well I guess you've won that argument, haven't you?

If the purpose of my trip was to spend as much time as possible in towns like Ely, then L2 charging there or elsewhere might be acceptable.

The purpose of the trip is to get to Great Basin NP as quickly as possible, specifically Wheeler Peak campground at 10k' (to acclimate to hike the Peak the next day), 70 plus miles beyond Ely. Any extra time spent along the way is time taken away from what I'm taking the trip for. And after that, I need to drive another 130 miles or so easy to I-15 and the EA QCs at Scipio,on my way to Arches and then RMNP.

Course, all this assumes I actually get past first Rush Creek Lodge the 198 miles to Tonopah and then the 169 miles to Ely, and do so without delays, neither of which appears likely at the moment.

So yeah, I win this argument. The QC infrastructure off interstates generally, and on this route specifically, lacks both the reliability and redundancy to be depended on to get me to my destination, and do so in the least amount of time and with minimum inconvenience.

I'm not taking a trip like this to have a driving adventure, I want to get where I want to go as quickly, reliably and with as little hassle as possible. Someday this will be possible in a BEV, with little or no time penalty vs. an ICE. Once it is, I will happily kiss my ICE goodbye. This isn't possible today.

[Oilpan4]

2.5 billion just to arrive at a dead end.
Too bad GM didn't spend it on lithium battery tech.

[WetEV]

I'm a firm believer in picking low-hanging fruit first, which is why I think we need to provide public charging in parking lots and garages first. There's such a city-owned lot 2 blocks from me. And far more workplaces have parking lots or garages they could install charging in, such as cwerdna has access to. So why do you think it hasn't happened faster?

Because that is not the low-hanging fruit. And not addressing the actual needs of BEV drivers.

Of course it is. Every study I've read says the cheapest installs for those who can't charge at home (bar new construction) are in just the places I've mentioned. Do you have other info? New construction MUDs can be mandated to be prepped for charging, as California has done, but retrofits are exoensivet.

Ah, the problem in a nutshell. Every study you've read just about covers the problem. Like reading surveys of 6th graders ideas about sex. Yes, very useful for understanding the knowledge and lack of knowledge for the target audience. But not very useful in actually learning about sex.

Yes, it might be cheaper to install charging there. Totally missing the point. It is very likely that if you don't have the ability to charge at home or work you are going to dislike owning a BEV. Sure, perhaps workplace charging will be enough for a lot of people, if enough is installed at your workplace. And a few might find charging at a supermarket and/or restaurant and/or other retail location enough.

[WetEV]

So yeah, I win this argument. The QC infrastructure off interstates generally, and on this route specifically, lacks both the reliability and redundancy to be depended on to get me to my destination, and do so in the least amount of time and with minimum inconvenience.

I agree. You are not the average driver, as you don't commute by car, and your trips are both long and to uncommon destinations. Not in the first 1% of BEV drivers, or the first 2%, or 4%, or 8%, or 16%, or 32%, but sometime after 64%. I'd hazard a guess of 2030 or later. After most new cars are BEVs.

[WetEV]

BTW, one of the reasons I'm partial to PHEVs at this time is that, aside from being the only AFV tech that currently provides a complete replacement for ICEs, and their lower purchase price, they can pretty easily be fully charged overnight via L1, even at say 8 instead of 12A, which is not only safer if using a non-dedicated circuit (if still illegal), but also eliminates the need for and cost of a 240V EVSE and its circuit.

As cost of PEVs is usually the biggest reason given for lack of purchase, anything we can do to reduce the price and hassle is critical. As you say, L1 is cheaper than L2, if less efficient.

For you, I'd recommend an ICE (or hybrid ICE) for at least the next decade. You will not be happy with a BEV with no home charging, your trip profile and your expectations. As you don't have home charging, you gain nothing from the extra cost of having the plug. A FCEV can't go to places far beyond subsidized fueling stations. No trips to Arches for a decade or more, perhaps never, as hydrogen is far too expensive to produce and to handle.

A PHEV is useful for someone that has lots of short trips than can be all EV, and occasional long trips. You don't fit that profile.

As batteries get cheaper and longer lasting, the value of a PHEV is getting harder to find.

[Oilpan4]

I saw a department of energy report where the government believes in 2030 that 70% of new cars sold will still be straight gas burners.
Something drastic would have to happen like 400 to 500 mile batteries becoming standard and the BEV version is cheaper than the ICE version, with out a bunch of other people's money.

[GRA]

Because that is not the low-hanging fruit. And not addressing the actual needs of BEV drivers.

Of course it is. Every study I've read says the cheapest installs for those who can't charge at home (bar new construction) are in just the places I've mentioned. Do you have other info? New construction MUDs can be mandated to be prepped for charging, as California has done, but retrofits are exoensivet.

Ah, the problem in a nutshell. Every study you've read just about covers the problem. Like reading surveys of 6th graders ideas about sex. Yes, very useful for understanding the knowledge and lack of knowledge for the target audience. But not very useful in actually learning about sex.

I'm curious, do you have any personal experience of the costs of different types of public charging? If not, I'd say I'm well ahead of you. I make no claims to have personal experience or expertise in the area, barring watching several charging sites under construction and sometimes talking to the crews about the issues (I did the same with my local H2 site). As far as the costs of different kinds of parking spaces themselves, Donald Shoup's 600-some page tome "The High Cost of Free Parking" is one of the standard sources, but not for the faint of heart. I've read it, have you?

I've had enough interest in the subject to read and get that info, because I recognize the enormous difference between installing a single EVSE at a home and installing huge numbers of public ones; you apparently haven't had even as much education on the subject as I have, purely as an interested layman.

Yes, it might be cheaper to install charging there. Totally missing the point. It is very likely that if you don't have the ability to charge at home or work you are going to dislike owning a BEV. Sure, perhaps workplace charging will be enough for a lot of people, if enough is installed at your workplace. And a few might find charging at a supermarket and/or restaurant and/or other retail location enough.

See the survey I linked to, where grocery stores were the public location of choice for those who couldn't charge at home or work, followed by some of the other locations. Absent such public charging, people of lower income levels and MUD tenants (often the same; referring to them all as renters may not be sufficiently accurate) simply won't be able to use BEVs. But they can use vehicles which refuel quickly at central locations, i.e. gas or H2 stations (ultimately the same thing, as H2 fueling is being added to existing gas stations, being a natural fit for same). If we could produce drop-in liquid biofuels in the necessary quantity we wouldn't be futzing about with BEVs or FCEVs, but as we want to continue eating that's not an option.