T/M Vehicle System Malfunction Warning

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I echo these thanks- had same issue today and panicked that I would need to get a tow to dealer (car wouldn't start in driveway) but went to Costco and replaced the battery myself following the instructions!

This forum is awesome


JohnnyRockstar said:
Thank you DaveinOlyWA and everyone else above! Problem solved!!!


Like many posters, my 2013 Nissan Leaf got this error code all of the sudden: "T/M Vehicle System Malfunction Warning. See dealer." The car would turn on as if I had not pressed down on the brake (wouldn't drive, but radio, etc. worked) and the brake pedal actually felt like it had retreated so that trying to turn the car on felt atypical and was actually not possible. Basically I was stuck in our garage and on the edge of calling to tow it to the dealer.

...

I took the 12v battery out. Took it to Costco (just like Dave above) and for $82.67 had a new replacement battery in hand (Costco keeps the old one). I installed the new battery and everything is all fixed and working!!! Yippee!

From first reading this forum to a fixed car was about 1.5 hours total (7:00pm - 8:30pm, including driving to and from a Costco in our other car) and $82.67, and I know almost nothing about working on a car, car batteries, or anything else mechanical. If I can do it, so can you. ;)

Based on some other reading, the 12v batteries last about 5 years or so. The new one I purchased says it has a 3 year warranty. The original battery in my 2013 Leaf was going on 7 years old, so it all kinda makes sense in the end.

Thanks, everyone!
Click to expand...
 
Having this warning message come up today-Thursday.

Tuesday I had a VA state inspection done.
Wednesday it acted like a car would if it had a dead battery. Checked and the negative/ground battery lug was loose. Moved it a little and it got me home. Tightened the lug by imprinting it a little with a screwdriver and hammer.

Thursday car started up and got to work fine.
Leaving work today, I got the same sort of behavior as Wednesday, but this time with the t/m message.

Cycled the button a few times and checked the battery terminal again(still tight). And it turned on normally and I got home.

The 12v battery is dated 02/2018. It shouldn't need replacement at less than 2.5 years(Gold). I'll report back if it crops up again. I'll replace the battery terminal if I can find a p/n somewhere since the one on the car is maxed out.
 
^^^
Measure the voltage of the 12 volt after it's sat overnight or when the car's off and you hit this bad state of not being able to go READY mode (green car with arrows).
 
Lead acid batteries can be damaged or even ruined by being run dead or near to dead - just once to dead can do it. I'm not saying that this happened in your case, but it remains a possibility.
 
cwerdna said:
^^^
Measure the voltage of the 12 volt after it's sat overnight or when the car's off and you hit this bad state of not being able to go READY mode (green car with arrows).
Click to expand...
Measured today after sitting for almost 24hr, 9.97v, I still got the go ready mode when powering the car up. :(

LeftieBiker said:
Lead acid batteries can be damaged or even ruined by being run dead or near to dead - just once to dead can do it. I'm not saying that this happened in your case, but it remains a possibility.
Click to expand...
How does it run dead on a modern car? My other two vehicles never kill batteries under 4 or 5 years old.
 
The Leaf can run the battery dead by drawing power from it and then not adequately replacing it. This happens often when the car is left plugged in for days after charging ends. It can also be a more chronic condition that takes months to drain the battery. I'm surprised that you were able to get Ready Mode! Anyway, first you have to see if there is a "vampire drain" like a Bluetooth dongle left plugged in all the time, or a relay sticking open and powering a subsystem when the car is off. We have several topics on the subject. I'm a bit under the weather, but I'm sure someone will link you with one or more of them.
 
drfrisker said:
cwerdna said:
^^^
Measure the voltage of the 12 volt after it's sat overnight or when the car's off and you hit this bad state of not being able to go READY mode (green car with arrows).
Click to expand...
Measured today after sitting for almost 24hr, 9.97v, I still got the go ready mode when powering the car up. :(

LeftieBiker said:
Lead acid batteries can be damaged or even ruined by being run dead or near to dead - just once to dead can do it. I'm not saying that this happened in your case, but it remains a possibility.
Click to expand...
How does it run dead on a modern car? My other two vehicles never kill batteries under 4 or 5 years old.
Click to expand...
Thanks! Just as I suspected...

FWIW, the 12 volt that came in my used '13 Leaf (built 5/2013) that I bought in July 2015 bit the dust in Oct 2015. I got it replaced for free by a local dealer under 3 year/36K warranty.

Unfortunately, its replacement bit the dust after the 100% free replacement period, so I bought a replacement from Costco for less $ than what the dealer wanted. I posted about this at https://mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=572068#p572068.

At least on '13 Leafs, the 12 volt charging algorithm seems poor.
 
It's worth noting at this point that sometimes replacing the OEM battery with a larger capacity AGM type battery will solve or lessen the undercharging issue. It may be because the car's charging algorithm works better with more available capacity. The configuration needed is 51R. Make sure that the new battery - of whatever type - is FULLY charged either before or right after installation, using an external charger.
 
Looking at either a Deka ETX-30L (have one of these in my gasser, going on 4 years with it) or considering a li-ion antigravity battery w/restart (one of these in my motorcycle)
 
The Deka would work, but the relatively small capacity would likely cancel out the advantage of it being AGM. Some people go with small lithium batteries, and seem to be happy with them. My opinion is that it makes more sense to spend half as much for an AGM with two or more times the capacity of a small lithium battery.
 
LeftieBiker said:
It's worth noting at this point that sometimes replacing the OEM battery with a larger capacity AGM type battery will solve or lessen the undercharging issue. It may be because the car's charging algorithm works better with more available capacity. The configuration needed is 51R. Make sure that the new battery - of whatever type - is FULLY charged either before or right after installation, using an external charger.
Click to expand...


This is a critical step that is overlooked. Depending on turnover, you might be getting a battery that has been sitting for a long time.

Single data point: 2015 LeafS, $150 BoschAGM 51R, now 1.5 years old, doing fine. After several months of almost daily use (short trips), I put it on a 1.25a BatteryTenderPlus overnight. It showed fully charged the next morning.
 
Yes, car batteries are sold with the assumption that the car's alternator will charge them right up on the first drive, so they aren't usually topped off before or after installation. EVs are much more leisurely about charging accessory batteries, and the Leaf can be downright negligent about it.
 
I have the same problem with the car won’t start initially as if the brake pedal was not depressed to turn on to “run” mode without any error message. Then it started but the brake totally failed which scared me so I turned off the car immediately but it won’t start again after multiple trials. Then eventually it displays the warning error message of T/M vehicle system malfunction.

So I thought the brake system failed. But then the electrical system flickers by itself, turning on and off the dashboard lights. Then I know it’s the battery problem, either that terminals were loose or the battery is dying on the last breathe. And eventually the battery was so drained that it couldn’t wind down the window. I was afraid I need to tow it to the dealer to check it out but decided to replace the 12V battery instead.

So I jump started the Leaf with a jumper cable from an ICE car and it turns on without a glitch. Then I drove it to the auto store and they checked the 12V battery and sure enough, the battery is no good. So they replace the battery for me and it runs without any problem.

So it’s the 12V battery not having enough voltage to run the electronics that gives the warning error message and failed to even detect the wireless ignition key.

Thanks you all In this forum, it saves me the towing cost or paying the dealer to work on the car or the brakes when it’s simply a dead battery problem.

Why do they even need a 12V battery to run the lights and electrical system when there’s the lithium battery already? Granted that the voltage may be different but why not get rid of the lead acid battery completely when you have the lithium battery to deliver more power, longevity and stability than the lead acid battery without requiring the cranking power to start the torque motor that’s not like the ICE engine that requires the juice to start the engine when electric motor is self-starting?

It’s easy to use a transformer to match the voltage for the lights and electronic system using the lithium battery without the lead acid battery. I’m surprised the stupid engineers didn’t put an alternator in the Leaf to charge the lead acid battery :roll:
 
Nicoladie said:
Why do they even need a 12V battery to run the lights and electrical system when there’s the lithium battery already? Granted that the voltage may be different but why not get rid of the lead acid battery completely when you have the lithium battery to deliver more power, longevity and stability than the lead acid battery without requiring the cranking power to start the torque motor that’s not like the ICE engine that requires the juice to start the engine when electric motor is self-starting?
Click to expand...
Well, that's a penetrating insight. Odd, don't you think, that not only Nissan, but Every other EV manufacturer makes the same silly mistake and uses a 12V system to run onboard electronics, accessories, and lighting? Maybe it has something to do with
  • Safety Feel like plugging into a 400VDC cigarette lighter?
  • Safety HV power should be cold and dead when car's off. So what runs the systems that listen to the key fob?
  • Safety Interrupting a 400VDC circuit, whether by a mechanical switch OR a fuse, is extremely challenging
  • Economics Twelve volt automotive systems are ubiquitous, with HUGE economies of scale
Nicoladie said:
It’s easy to use a transformer to match the voltage for the lights and electronic system using the lithium battery without the lead acid battery. I’m surprised the stupid engineers didn’t put an alternator in the Leaf to charge the lead acid battery :roll:
Click to expand...
Transformers only work for AC power, not DC. A legitimate disappointment about the LEAF's 12V system is its use of a lead-acid battery. Now if only Nissan could discover some other battery technology... Nah, that's just a pipe dream.
 
The issue with the Leaf isn't that there is no good way to convert 400VDC to 13VDC. The DC-DC converter does that just fine. It is the way that the car is programmed to keep the 12 volt battery slightly starved for power that causes problems. Alternators, BTW, require a spinning shaft to work.
 
Nicoladie said:
I have the same problem with the car won’t start initially as if the brake pedal was not depressed to turn on to “run” mode without any error message. Then it started but the brake totally failed which scared me so I turned off the car immediately but it won’t start again after multiple trials. Then eventually it displays the warning error message of T/M vehicle system malfunction.

So I thought the brake system failed. But then the electrical system flickers by itself, turning on and off the dashboard lights. Then I know it’s the battery problem, either that terminals were loose or the battery is dying on the last breathe. And eventually the battery was so drained that it couldn’t wind down the window. I was afraid I need to tow it to the dealer to check it out but decided to replace the 12V battery instead.

So I jump started the Leaf with a jumper cable from an ICE car and it turns on without a glitch. Then I drove it to the auto store and they checked the 12V battery and sure enough, the battery is no good. So they replace the battery for me and it runs without any problem.

So it’s the 12V battery not having enough voltage to run the electronics that gives the warning error message and failed to even detect the wireless ignition key.

Thanks you all In this forum, it saves me the towing cost or paying the dealer to work on the car or the brakes when it’s simply a dead battery problem.

Why do they even need a 12V battery to run the lights and electrical system when there’s the lithium battery already? Granted that the voltage may be different but why not get rid of the lead acid battery completely when you have the lithium battery to deliver more power, longevity and stability than the lead acid battery without requiring the cranking power to start the torque motor that’s not like the ICE engine that requires the juice to start the engine when electric motor is self-starting?

It’s easy to use a transformer to match the voltage for the lights and electronic system using the lithium battery without the lead acid battery. I’m surprised the stupid engineers didn’t put an alternator in the Leaf to charge the lead acid battery :roll:
Click to expand...

We have had this problem also. The 12V battery is losing charge due to lack of use and we have had a couple of occasions when the car would start, go into "R", but the brakes totally fail.

IMHO, there should be a recall to fix this.
 
SimonMatthews said:
We have had this problem also. The 12V battery is losing charge due to lack of use and we have had a couple of occasions when the car would start, go into "R", but the brakes totally fail.

IMHO, there should be a recall to fix this.
Click to expand...
I suggest you file a safety complaint w/NHTSA at https://www.safercar.gov/.
 
Levenkay said:
Transformers only work for AC power, not DC. A legitimate disappointment about the LEAF's 12V system is its use of a lead-acid battery. Now if only Nissan could discover some other battery technology... Nah, that's just a pipe dream.
Click to expand...

At the risk of beating a dead horse...it's very easy to replace the 12v lead-acid with a 12v Lithium battery. I have had mine (see sig) for over 5 years now with no issues (and I have never had a 12v battery last that long in Texas)...and there are more choices now than when I bought mine. Search for my name and the 12v Lithium thread I started years ago. EVs are perfect candidates for Lithium starter batteries since they almost universally have "phantom drain" from telematics and Lithium batteries don't care if their charge levels fall below 50% (unlike lead-acid).
 
EVs are perfect candidates for Lithium starter batteries since they almost universally have "phantom drain" from telematics and Lithium batteries don't care if their charge levels fall below 50% (unlike lead-acid).
Click to expand...

They do care very much, however, if their SOC falls below 10%. That's why I don't recommend them: an expensive lithium battery can get killed dead just like a cheap SLA battery, and then cost several times as much to replace. Lithium can be a good solution for people who are actively involved in maintaining/monitoring their cars, but not so much for those who want to just drive the things.
 

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