2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses
- Thread starter cwerdna
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Help Support My Nissan Leaf Forum:
Why not?
ac19 said:
The Leaf in question is from Texas, US, NA. It was built in the US.
Hi, I Hope you can give me some advice as I am new to ev. We purchased a 2017 30kw leaf with a 6.6kw 4nr6a charger a few weeks ago. We get about 90 miles driving carefully at 4miles per kw which the dealer says is normal for a used leaf. It has 11 bars with a soh of 74% which I understand should be 9 bars? We have found out since it was at the dealer fully charged for over 10 weeks. Does anyone know if there is a charger bms update for this car or any suggestions?
Many thanks.
Many thanks.
cwerdna
Well-known member
Battery capacity and energy are measured in kWh, not "kw". "4miles per kw" should be 4 miles per kWh. As for "90 miles", what is that until? 1st warning (LBW)? 2nd warning (VLBW)? Turtle? Car totally dead and stops moving? Some unknown to me % SoC on the dash display?Ac123 said:
Are you looking at the correct bars when you're talking about 11 bars? Where is "soh of 74%" coming from? It seems unlikely a car w/Leaf Spy SOH of 74% would have 11 capacity bars. That's too many.
See earlier posts in this thread about updates.
To put the question another way: have you or someone else used LeafSpy Pro to read the battery health? Or are you looking at the charge percentage on the dashboard, which is different from battery capacity? If you are getting 90 miles of actual range, with at least some highway driving, then you have a good battery.
Please read this, especially the section on the 2016-2017 Leaf. It may help.
https://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=26662&p=538030
And this. Some of it applies mainly to the older Leafs, but the 2017 is 90% the same as them, and most still applies: https://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=23297&p=482154
Please read this, especially the section on the 2016-2017 Leaf. It may help.
https://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=26662&p=538030
And this. Some of it applies mainly to the older Leafs, but the 2017 is 90% the same as them, and most still applies: https://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=23297&p=482154
cwerdna
Well-known member
When people complain about "short" range or something along those lines, we usually need answers to questions like https://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=275421#p275421 so that we can establish a baseline. But again, need to know how you're determining "90 miles", where that SOH figures comes from and if you're actually telling us about the capacity bars.
https://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=436255#p436255 has a visual aid of the capacity bars, the thinnest ones all the way on the right, including the red ones.
https://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=436255#p436255 has a visual aid of the capacity bars, the thinnest ones all the way on the right, including the red ones.
Hi
Thanks for your quick replies and the links to the help sections. We have been learning very rapidly.
When we purchased our Leaf we did not realize the health was the bars on the side, we have 2 red bars and 9 white bars 11 in total.
From February to August it did 105 miles and we can see in the sales photos it sat fully charged for at least 10 weeks until we purchased it in August, it has done 43K miles
Driving carefully at 30-50mph the energy economy meter on the dash shows at the end of 80miles an average of 4.1miles/kwh with 10 miles remaining battery life. I see other owners get around 130mile at the moment in the warmer UK 20 degrees celsius weather.
From my leafspy on 20 August I can see
AHr=60.97
Soh75.29%
hx=64.08%
354.74v -0.90A
10mv
11.68v
soc39.2%
the SOH yesterday shows 74.42%
I see some say about a BMS update if the number ends in A if it has a 3kw onboard charger but ours has a 6.6kw onboard charger. I think it is the 4nr6a number that is the important one?
4nr3c charger 2351116x831475
3ng2a ev/hev
4nr6a hv battery 230uk11716000325
I have borrowed another Leaf and drove it for 116miles with 12miles remaining.
When we said to the dealer about the range they said it is normal and gave the basic battery print out showing 11 bars, does anyone know if a Nissan dealers can see the SOH like leafspy?
I don't think this Nissan dealer is very familiar with Leafs or electric vehicles, they had 4 electric vans, I asked to test drive one, 3 were flat and the one I drove had 14miles remaining.
I hope you can advise me if I need a BMS update or the battery is failing or any other advice.
Thanks for your help
Thanks for your quick replies and the links to the help sections. We have been learning very rapidly.
When we purchased our Leaf we did not realize the health was the bars on the side, we have 2 red bars and 9 white bars 11 in total.
From February to August it did 105 miles and we can see in the sales photos it sat fully charged for at least 10 weeks until we purchased it in August, it has done 43K miles
Driving carefully at 30-50mph the energy economy meter on the dash shows at the end of 80miles an average of 4.1miles/kwh with 10 miles remaining battery life. I see other owners get around 130mile at the moment in the warmer UK 20 degrees celsius weather.
From my leafspy on 20 August I can see
AHr=60.97
Soh75.29%
hx=64.08%
354.74v -0.90A
10mv
11.68v
soc39.2%
the SOH yesterday shows 74.42%
I see some say about a BMS update if the number ends in A if it has a 3kw onboard charger but ours has a 6.6kw onboard charger. I think it is the 4nr6a number that is the important one?
4nr3c charger 2351116x831475
3ng2a ev/hev
4nr6a hv battery 230uk11716000325
I have borrowed another Leaf and drove it for 116miles with 12miles remaining.
When we said to the dealer about the range they said it is normal and gave the basic battery print out showing 11 bars, does anyone know if a Nissan dealers can see the SOH like leafspy?
I don't think this Nissan dealer is very familiar with Leafs or electric vehicles, they had 4 electric vans, I asked to test drive one, 3 were flat and the one I drove had 14miles remaining.
I hope you can advise me if I need a BMS update or the battery is failing or any other advice.
Thanks for your help
goldbrick
Well-known member
I don't know much about Leafs in the UK but in the US, any Nissan dealer should be able to tell you if the BMS firmware update has been done based on the VIN. I don't think the BMS update will affect the range of the car but it could affect the SOC% reading as well as the SOH% reading. I don't know about that but my SOH% went up significantly after the update. 4.1 m/kWh is pretty low in my experience for that speed. How are the tires and air pressure in them? Any chance you have a dragging brake on one of the wheels?
On the bright side, if your battery is really at 75% SOH, it should drop another bar soon (I would think 75% would already be at 10 bars) and when the 4th bar drops, you should be entitled to a new replacement battery, assuming Nissan is still in business at that point.
On the bright side, if your battery is really at 75% SOH, it should drop another bar soon (I would think 75% would already be at 10 bars) and when the 4th bar drops, you should be entitled to a new replacement battery, assuming Nissan is still in business at that point.
We still don't know where the 75% SOH is coming from. It sounds like the car has a solid 11 bars (the first one is worth 15% of total capacity) and a range that corresponds with that. If the SOH is really 75% and the OP is just driving slowly, then as noted above, a new, free battery may be in the future...
European charger configurations differ from North American ones, where all mid and top grade Leafs have the 6.6kwh charger.
European charger configurations differ from North American ones, where all mid and top grade Leafs have the 6.6kwh charger.
First things first, get the BMS updated if not already done.Ac123 said:
We *think* that the 12th and 1st capacity bars ~ 16% of capacity each and the intervening bars are 6.5% each. There is some wiggle room here so either your BMS needs an update or you are on the cusp of losing the 11th bar.
Sept 1 update. 300 GID's, SOH=82.60%, Hx=58.93%. 81286 total miles, 36357 miles on new battery, 136 L3 total, 22 on new battery, 1595 l2 total, 721 on new battery. I'm driving a lot less now so wear and tear on the battery is less but it's still losing power at about the same rate per mile as before. It still looks like I won't hit the 4 bar down mark before the 100K warranty limit. At the current rate, I'll get 70K out of this battery before it hits 8 bars. That would put me at about 115000 miles overall. I'll probably trade it in sometime next year. Tesla is in the lead as a replacement but I'd like to look at the ID4 before I make up my mind. State and Federal tax credits on the ID4 that I don't get with a Tesla could make a difference. If Congress were to extend the federal credit to Tesla as well, that would make a big difference as well.
cwerdna
Well-known member
You're in CA, so you have PLENTY of choices of EVs. All non-Tesla and non-GM EV/PHEV makers are still eligible for full Federal tax credit, for now.johnlocke said:
https://cleanvehiclerebate.org/eng/eligible-vehicles shows Tesla Model 3 and Y eligible for CVRP. More expensive models don't qualify: https://cleanvehiclerebate.org/eng/faqs/why-don%E2%80%99t-i-see-my-vehicle-eligibility-list-0. I never qualified (2 year lease on Leaf; used Leaf and now I make too much $ vs. the current income limits so n/a for my Bolt).
A
Anonymous
Guest
johnlocke said:
Have you test driven a Bolt?
Goodbar
Well-known member
Just beyond the 3-year anniversary with our 2017. We've been averaging 8k miles/year and I've continued to be careful to avoid high SOC and hot weather (usually 50-80% unless a full charge for a longer trip). Usually parked in the shade in hot weather. It seems like SoH did not rebound in warm weather this year and it has continued eroding. Haven't lost the first bar, but it must be just around the corner.
Is there anything to be interpreted from the big difference between SoH and Hx? It didn't used to be so large.
Also, the L1/L2 charges are implausibly high. Does it count every time the car is plugged in and every time charging is started? I have the charge timer configured for early AM. I can't think of another scenario that would give that elevated number.
Is there anything to be interpreted from the big difference between SoH and Hx? It didn't used to be so large.
Also, the L1/L2 charges are implausibly high. Does it count every time the car is plugged in and every time charging is started? I have the charge timer configured for early AM. I can't think of another scenario that would give that elevated number.
Yes, with charge timer set, L1/L2 count will increment by 1 when plugged in before scheduled charge time as car goes through system checks. It will then increment again when charge starts. If you have climate control timer set to start after charge is complete (or you start climate control remotely), then charge count will increment again. Therefore, you could have 1, 2, or 3 L1/L2 charge counts for one charge cycle.
Hx seems to be inversely related to internal resistance of the battery, but probably not directly related to energy storage capability. Therefore, Hx vs. SOH can vary depending upon driving, storage, and charging patterns. I found that highway driving and quick charging improved Hx and SOH (at least temporarily) while slower driving and slower charging caused the numbers to drop on my 2015. I have not observed the same pattern with 2019, but it may be too soon to tell.
Hx seems to be inversely related to internal resistance of the battery, but probably not directly related to energy storage capability. Therefore, Hx vs. SOH can vary depending upon driving, storage, and charging patterns. I found that highway driving and quick charging improved Hx and SOH (at least temporarily) while slower driving and slower charging caused the numbers to drop on my 2015. I have not observed the same pattern with 2019, but it may be too soon to tell.
Goodbar
Well-known member
GerryAZ said:
Thanks. Covid has reduced our highway driving this year, and QCs along with it.
GerryAZ said:
So it's actually monitoring battery conductance, right? Since Hx declines from an initial value of 100, it's mostly likely
a ratio of the present conductance to the initial conductance. Given that, it should also track SOH over time as the battery degrades, right?
Have you discovered any references from Nissan, or do you have data/calculations which refutes this?
GerryAZ said:
Given this anecdotal info, do you have any recommendations for Leaf 1 drivers?
The only references I have seen to Hx have been in numerous threads on this forum--nothing in the Nissan service manual (for either 2011 or 2015) provides lists or definitions of information available from the CAN Bus. On all of the vehicles I have data for (the replacement battery for the 2011, the 2015, and the 2019), Hx started out above 100% so it must be referenced to some nominal value and not the actual starting value for the particular battery. I have the most data for the 2015 and Hx did seem to inversely track the internal resistance over the 4-1/2 years I drove that car. I observed/tracked internal resistance by noting voltage drop under full load and calculating approximate internal resistance periodically.
Based upon my observations with the 2011 and 2015, I recommend driving the car as you wish. Don't be afraid to accelerate hard or drive on the freeway within range limitations. Don't be afraid to routinely discharge the battery deeply and/or charge to 100%, but don't let it sit deeply discharged for more than a few hours and don't leave it parked at full charge for more than a day or two. In general, try to minimize the time spent at full charge and have charge level between 40% and 70% for extended parking (such as at the airport). Don't be afraid to use "B" mode to get maximum regeneration. Don't be afraid to use DCQC when necessary, but try to avoid multiple QC sessions in a day to avoid overheating the battery (especially in high ambient temperatures). Use the highest rate of L2 charging that your car and power source will support for routine charging to minimize the drop in Leaf Spy numbers. Also, faster L2 charging is more efficient if the battery is deeply discharged (no real difference when battery is close to full charge due to charge tapering). When the 2015 (with 6.6 kW onboard charger) was new, it took 26.41 kWh to charge from shutdown to full charge using my 12-ampere EVSE Upgrade unit on 240 volts at home. Using my 30-ampere AeroVironment EVSE, it took 25.45 kWh on 208 volts at my workshop and 24.85 kWh on 240 volts at home.
Based upon my observations with the 2011 and 2015, I recommend driving the car as you wish. Don't be afraid to accelerate hard or drive on the freeway within range limitations. Don't be afraid to routinely discharge the battery deeply and/or charge to 100%, but don't let it sit deeply discharged for more than a few hours and don't leave it parked at full charge for more than a day or two. In general, try to minimize the time spent at full charge and have charge level between 40% and 70% for extended parking (such as at the airport). Don't be afraid to use "B" mode to get maximum regeneration. Don't be afraid to use DCQC when necessary, but try to avoid multiple QC sessions in a day to avoid overheating the battery (especially in high ambient temperatures). Use the highest rate of L2 charging that your car and power source will support for routine charging to minimize the drop in Leaf Spy numbers. Also, faster L2 charging is more efficient if the battery is deeply discharged (no real difference when battery is close to full charge due to charge tapering). When the 2015 (with 6.6 kW onboard charger) was new, it took 26.41 kWh to charge from shutdown to full charge using my 12-ampere EVSE Upgrade unit on 240 volts at home. Using my 30-ampere AeroVironment EVSE, it took 25.45 kWh on 208 volts at my workshop and 24.85 kWh on 240 volts at home.
