T/M Vehicle System Malfunction Warning

LeftieBiker said:

EVs are perfect candidates for Lithium starter batteries since they almost universally have "phantom drain" from telematics and Lithium batteries don't care if their charge levels fall below 50% (unlike lead-acid).

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They do care very much, however, if their SOC falls below 10%. That's why I don't recommend them: an expensive lithium battery can get killed dead just like a cheap SLA battery, and then cost several times as much to replace. Lithium can be a good solution for people who are actively involved in maintaining/monitoring their cars, but not so much for those who want to just drive the things.

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Sorry, but I don't think it's reasonable for a starter battery to fall below 10% with even the Leaf's charging algorithm. A common failure point for lead-acid batteries is 50% SOC, which is a far cry from 10% (which I don't even dive my main battery down to).

You seem to believe that the lowest a lithium battery would be drained would be 50%, because that's where many lead-acid starter batteries are when diagnosed. I believe that this is because at that point the car often won't start, and that the bad charging algorithms would happily drain a lithium battery right down to a similar SOC at which the voltage drops off - like 2%.

Stanton said:

Levenkay said:

Transformers only work for AC power, not DC. A legitimate disappointment about the LEAF's 12V system is its use of a lead-acid battery. Now if only Nissan could discover some other battery technology... Nah, that's just a pipe dream.

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At the risk of beating a dead horse...it's very easy to replace the 12v lead-acid with a 12v Lithium battery. I have had mine (see sig) for over 5 years now with no issues (and I have never had a 12v battery last that long in Texas)...and there are more choices now than when I bought mine. Search for my name and the 12v Lithium thread I started years ago. EVs are perfect candidates for Lithium starter batteries since they almost universally have "phantom drain" from telematics and Lithium batteries don't care if their charge levels fall below 50% (unlike lead-acid).

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Which one are you using? I talked to one manufacturer, and the 12V lithium battery was $700 and they had concerns that due to the slightly high charge voltage and known issues with the Leaf Charging algorithm, that the battery might not charge until it hit the cutoff voltage.

Lothsahn said:

Stanton said:

At the risk of beating a dead horse...it's very easy to replace the 12v lead-acid with a 12v Lithium battery. I have had mine (see sig) for over 5 years now with no issues (and I have never had a 12v battery last that long in Texas)...and there are more choices now than when I bought mine. Search for my name and the 12v Lithium thread I started years ago. EVs are perfect candidates for Lithium starter batteries since they almost universally have "phantom drain" from telematics and Lithium batteries don't care if their charge levels fall below 50% (unlike lead-acid).

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Which one are you using? I talked to one manufacturer, and the 12V lithium battery was $700 and they had concerns that due to the slightly high charge voltage and known issues with the Leaf Charging algorithm, that the battery might not charge until it hit the cutoff voltage.

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I use the Lithium Pros C925, but there are several other good (e.g. BMS/voltage protection/etc) Lithium 12v batteries on the market now as well (and they don't cost $700). The charging algorithm and battery specs are compatible (I'm an EE), but I suggest you visit the thread I started years ago if you want more information. Did you read the part about I've had one of these in my Leaf for over 5 years now?

Stanton said:

I use the Lithium Pros C925, but there are several other good (e.g. BMS/voltage protection/etc) Lithium 12v batteries on the market now as well (and they don't cost $700). The charging algorithm and battery specs are compatible (I'm an EE), but I suggest you visit the thread I started years ago if you want more information. Did you read the part about I've had one of these in my Leaf for over 5 years now?

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I did read the thread you posted. The Lithium Pros C925 is an $800 battery and out of stock... Has it gone up in price or is there a cheaper place to buy it than their website?

Stanton said:

The charging algorithm and battery specs are compatible (I'm an EE), but I suggest you visit the thread I started years ago if you want more information. Did you read the part about I've had one of these in my Leaf for over 5 years now?

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Yes, that's why I asked which one you used. I wasn't challenging that you found a product that worked--I was just saying when I looked, I only found very expensive solutions and some had compatibility issues with the Leaf.

Unfortunately, I just replaced my 12V battery ~6 months ago, but I used an Optima Yellow top and haven't had any problems since.

Lothsahn said:

Stanton said:

I use the Lithium Pros C925, but there are several other good (e.g. BMS/voltage protection/etc) Lithium 12v batteries on the market now as well (and they don't cost $700). The charging algorithm and battery specs are compatible (I'm an EE), but I suggest you visit the thread I started years ago if you want more information. Did you read the part about I've had one of these in my Leaf for over 5 years now?

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I did read the thread you posted. The Lithium Pros C925 is an $800 battery and out of stock... Has it gone up in price or is there a cheaper place to buy it than their website?

Unfortunately, I just replaced my 12V battery ~6 months ago, but I used an Optima Yellow top and haven't had any problems since.

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I bought my battery direct from Lithium Pros (and didn't pay near that much), but am not aware of other distributors (they actually design/manufacture their batteries in TN). No matter, there are other/cheaper options (like the Antigravity Lithium starter batteries)...and they don't have to fit the 51R profile or supply more than ~20AHr to work in a Leaf.
12v Lithium starter batteries are like insurance: better to have it and not need it...than to need it and not have it. I've never had a "dead battery" or any funky brake/system issues since I went Lithium. It's always easy to go with a cheaper option to get you "down the road"...but you get what you pay for.

Stanton said:

Lothsahn said:

Stanton said:

I use the Lithium Pros C925, but there are several other good (e.g. BMS/voltage protection/etc) Lithium 12v batteries on the market now as well (and they don't cost $700). The charging algorithm and battery specs are compatible (I'm an EE), but I suggest you visit the thread I started years ago if you want more information. Did you read the part about I've had one of these in my Leaf for over 5 years now?

Click to expand...

I did read the thread you posted. The Lithium Pros C925 is an $800 battery and out of stock... Has it gone up in price or is there a cheaper place to buy it than their website?

Unfortunately, I just replaced my 12V battery ~6 months ago, but I used an Optima Yellow top and haven't had any problems since.

Click to expand...

I bought my battery direct from Lithium Pros (and didn't pay near that much), but am not aware of other distributors (they actually design/manufacture their batteries in TN). No matter, there are other/cheaper options (like the Antigravity Lithium starter batteries)...and they don't have to fit the 51R profile or supply more than ~20AHr to work in a Leaf.
12v Lithium starter batteries are like insurance: better to have it and not need it...than to need it and not have it. I've never had a "dead battery" or any funky brake/system issues since I went Lithium. It's always easy to go with a cheaper option to get you "down the road"...but you get what you pay for.

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FYI - Antigravity was one of the vendors I looked at. They said that I would need to special order a battery without the restart feature, or it might have compatibility issues given the Leaf's charging profile. The 51R is $650, and at the time, I wasn't aware that you could use a different size battery, so I didn't investigate it.

Can Stanton give me a financial or reliability reason to use one of these expensive lithium batteries, instead of a $150-$200 AGM 51R? I still can't see one.

LeftieBiker said:

Can Stanton give me a financial or reliability reason to use one of these expensive lithium batteries, instead of a $150-$200 AGM 51R? I still can't see one.

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I'm interested, as well. While I only have 17 months on my $150 Bosch AGM 51R, I haven't had any issues. I totally agree with "proactive" 12V battery replacement, but at $150/ea, I could replace with the AGM 3 more times and still be $$$ ahead of the cost of a lithium battery.

I'm also living in Stanton's state of TX...high heat...

With all respect, I'm not going to generate a biz case on "why you should go 12v Lithium". I'm sure there's plenty of anecdotal info on the 'net.
If you want to replace your failed lead-acid battery every couple of years (depending on climate), then be my guest; if you want to put something in there that may very well last the life of your car (and mine is approaching 10 years), then do it.
If these things were a bit closer in price, we wouldn't even be having this discussion...but I'm not here to defend the cost (I just don't want to get stuck on the road).

While it's possible that a genuinely Crappy Chinese "AGM" labeled battery might fail every two or three years (especially in a Hot climate), a decent brand is more likely to last 5-7 years. I'd be curious to know what the warranty is on the lithium batteries.

The heat under the hood of a leaf is nothing compared to the temperature of an ice. Which I bothered to measure once, 180 to 200 on the highway, 220F in stop and go traffic and 280F when you go from driving 85mph, typical Florida highway traffic to stop quickly.

2015 LeafS, right at 40k miles.

Bosch 51R AGM, replaced 1/2019

20 months old, TX heat. Connected BatteryTenderPlus, 1.25a, within seconds, charger showed 80% battery charge. Within 8 hours, 100% charge.

So far, so good...for $150.

We simply replaced the 12 v battery (probably 7 or 8 years old in our 2015 Leaf) and that solved the problem. No tow, no dealer’s fees.

I had this issue twice in one month. Changed out my 12V battery. No further issues.

My wife ran into to this issue coming out of work in Phoenix yesterday afternoon.

I tried calling the Nissan Dealer: $149.00 just to look at the car (no tech available until the next day)
Leaf towing service: $180.00 (out of warranty) to bring the car to the dealer.

So $329.00 before anything was actually done to the car? No way Jose~ :evil:

Came back to this website for some insight.
Found this thread. As a result:

-Ordered a Platinum Super Start AGM Platinum Battery Group Size 51R | SSB 51RPLT at O’Reilly Auto Parts for $199.99 +$22 core charge.
-Picked up the battery this morning and drove from QC to PHX with battery, cables and a tool kit.
-Door wouldn't even open... thank goodness for the actual embedded key to unlock the door.
-Replaced battery
-crossed fingers
-Turned the ignition key.
Shazam... the car started!

Afterwards drove back and returned the core for the deposit to be refunded.

Thank goodness for this website!!! It was so helpful in resolving this bewildering issue!
With all of the electronic gizmos in these cars there couldn't be a code that tells you "12V battery is too low or not functioning"?
That T/M Vehicle System Malfunctioning warning is too vague and not helpful whatsoever!
Again, thanks to everyone in this thread that provided information, links and guidance.

Speaking of which... here's the battery link: https://www.oreillyauto.com/detail/c/platinum/super-start-platinum-battery-group-size-51r/ssbq/51rplt/v/a/137817/automotive-car-2016-nissan-leaf?brand=true&pos=0
For some reason it is $10.00 more today. :roll:

Thank you all for this thread. Had the same issue with 2014 Leaf S today. (70000+mi., daily driver about 6000mi annually. Still shows 11/12 of the main battery. Only using Lv1 charger) I bought it used in 2017 and i bet the aux battery is still original.

The car didn't started after going to work and on the way back stopping at a store. Gave the famous T/M malfunction error.

After reading the all of the posts here, took the ICE car there. When i got in, pushed the button and It was all black, nothing was running, int. lights were very dim. Jumped the aux battery and charged it about 10min and whola, it started just fine, no error message, just the yellow car sign with exclamation. After driving home, i turned it off and on again and even the yellow warning light was off.

Plugging it at home showed 14.5V charge voltage at the aux. I'll most probably use it like this and monitor the voltage between the charges to see how it does but will get a 51R soon.

Today, my 2016 Nissan Leaf would not start. The Nissan dealership was no helpful but the forum was! Thank you. I replaced the standard car battery and I am good to go. The tech at AutoZone went out of his way to help. Thank God for this forum and AutoZone.