PHEVs Fail to Reduce Emissions Compared to HEV

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SageBrush

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https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-54170207

Bottom line: they are bought for perks and subsidies, and then not plugged in (enough to justify the support.)

Told ya
 
Yes, they are cleaner if they are plugged in for local trips. Unfortunately, most apparently don't bother even in Europe with higher fuel costs. Personally, I would plug in at home because it is much more convenient than going to gas stations. I doubt that I would search for public charging on trips since, at least in the USA, gasoline would be as cheap as public charging cost. Also, some of the early PHEV's had such small batteries and short EV range that it was probably not worth the trouble to plug in. Later models with larger batteries may do better in emissions studies.
 
Perks and subsidies cause distortions in many places if not focused appropriately. Sadly there seem to be a large number of cases here.

When we had our '12 Plug-in Prius, we used it in 100% electric mode for my work commute, then 100% electric in the wife's Leaf for further errands such as soccer games and airport runs in farther out cities. Then when we had road trips, typically several hundred miles, we took the Plug-in Prius, usually getting 55-60mpg with the four of us onboard. Never put the car pool stickers on the Plug-in Prius and probably got close to the vehicle's maximum efficiency potential.
 
Before the motor on our PIP became problematic, we still plugged it in before every trip, and the "lifetime" fuel economy average, including some long, cold Winters, stands at 66MPG. It was in the seventies for years. Now, if we keep it another Winter, it will be a local trip EV (with no heat) until the weather improves enough again for the ICE to run halfway well. I'd love to have her trade it in, and she is wavering, but I will miss the no-liftover cargo area.

My point, and I did have one, is that the PIP gets great fuel economy even when not plugged in - substantially more than the regular Prius. So I think that PHEVs like the Volt and Outlander, which get mediocre fuel economy if not plugged in, have skewed the data to tar all PHEVs with the same dirty brush.
 
Our Clarity is on the second gas tank this year, and is still full. My main concern with the car is the gas going bad. Close to 18000 miles since the beginning of 2018 and I do not believe we filed the 7 gallon tank more than a dozen times. Half of the gas was used during two 1000 miles each trips.
 
LeftieBiker said:
My point, and I did have one, that the PIP gets great fuel economy even when not plugged in - substantially more than the regular Prius.
The EPA disagrees with you, as do I from experience with 3 Toyota Prius HEV and one Toyota Prius Prime.

iPlug is right, subsidies have caused distortions with PHEVs. I hope the authorities catch on and give subsidies by MPG and tailpipe emissions rather than tech. PHEV will have to be treated mostly as an ICE.
 
The EPA disagrees with you, as do I from experience with 3 Toyota Prius HEV and one Toyota Prius Prime.

The Prime is not the PIP. It was common knowledge in the Toyota Prius PHEV users group that the PIP got better fuel economy than the Prius II even when not charged. I had suggested the opposite because of the additional weight, was corrected by the group, and our subsequent experience bore out what they had said. The lithium pack in the PIP is able to store substantially more energy from regeneration than is the NiMH pack, and that makes a difference. It must be a case of how the car is used, and how the EPA test cycle differs from how a lot of PIP owners drive. This also suggests that Toyota could improve the economy of the Prius just by replacing the NiMH packs with lithium batteries, at least in milder climates.

I don't know if your experience with the Prime is typical or unusual. Since my housemate is considering a Prime (her range anxiety is currently at war with he newly acquired distaste for ICEs) as well as a Leaf, I may look into it a bit. Or not, because she is religious about always plugging in anyway.
 
camasleaf said:
Our Clarity is on the second gas tank this year, and is still full. My main concern with the car is the gas going bad. Close to 18000 miles since the beginning of 2018 and I do not believe we filed the 7 gallon tank more than a dozen times. Half of the gas was used during two 1000 miles each trips.
There is no doubt that a PHEV has the potential to be a smart, environmental car. You use it as intended; I used our Prime that way. In fact, the Prius Prime was outstanding for us. I used it for my work commute of 86 miles r/t in 4 season Colorado and frequent 250 mile trips each way to New Mexico and ended up with ~ 100 mpg lifetime.

However, The point of the study is that overall PHEVs about match HEVs in tailpipe emissions because owners like us are the tiny minority. You and I are anecdotes.
 
I picked up a RAV4 Prime a couple weeks ago and will definitely be different from those in the survey. I'll do probably 95%+ EV driving only after the 600 mile break-in period. But yes, the majority aren't going to plug-in much and just buy the plug-in model since it costs (after rebates etc) the same as the non plug-in models. The plug-ins are usually more loaded / optioned as well, so that's another incentive.
 
RonSwanson said:
I picked up a RAV4 Prime a couple weeks ago and will definitely be different from those in the survey. I'll do probably 95%+ EV driving only after the 600 mile break-in period. But yes, the majority aren't going to plug-in much and just buy the plug-in model since it costs (after rebates etc) the same as the non plug-in models. The plug-ins are usually more loaded / optioned as well, so that's another incentive.
What would you have bought without the PHEV incentive ?

By the way, the RAV Prime has the potential to be an outstanding environmental and value choice. I thought about buying one also, until I realized that the ICE would be useless in our household. You might also find, as we did with our Prime and many others do with their PHEVs, that the daily EV operation reminds you every day just how much ICE sucks. If you find yourself trying to avoid ICE use no matter how trivial, you have fallen into the PHEV trap.
 
SageBrush said:
RonSwanson said:
I picked up a RAV4 Prime a couple weeks ago and will definitely be different from those in the survey. I'll do probably 95%+ EV driving only after the 600 mile break-in period. But yes, the majority aren't going to plug-in much and just buy the plug-in model since it costs (after rebates etc) the same as the non plug-in models. The plug-ins are usually more loaded / optioned as well, so that's another incentive.
What would you have bought without the PHEV incentive ?

By the way, the RAV Prime has the potential to be an outstanding environmental and value choice. I thought about buying one also, until I realized that the ICE would be useless in our household. You might also find, as we did with our Prime and many others do with their PHEVs, that the daily EV operation reminds you every day just how much ICE sucks. If you find yourself trying to avoid ICE use no matter how trivial, you have fallen into the PHEV trap.

That's really a good question. I looked at EVs too. My other interest was the Tesla 3 but decided against it for a few reasons (no fed tax credits ,not enough range and a just not as big as the RAV4).

I think in the end I'd probably have gotten a RAV4 hybrid. I wanted the extra room the RAV4 offers over cars plus some towing ability and cross bars up top. I probably lied about EV use above on my new Prime. I'll probably go on a few road trips/vacations per year where the gas engine and the ~500 miles or so on a tank will come in handy. So 95% EV driving when I'm not on trips.

My plan is to keep the prime until there's an EV SUV that's more affordable than the Tesla Y and bigger than Kona, Niro etc...
 
RonSwanson said:
SageBrush said:
RonSwanson said:
I picked up a RAV4 Prime a couple weeks ago and will definitely be different from those in the survey. I'll do probably 95%+ EV driving only after the 600 mile break-in period. But yes, the majority aren't going to plug-in much and just buy the plug-in model since it costs (after rebates etc) the same as the non plug-in models. The plug-ins are usually more loaded / optioned as well, so that's another incentive.
What would you have bought without the PHEV incentive ?

By the way, the RAV Prime has the potential to be an outstanding environmental and value choice. I thought about buying one also, until I realized that the ICE would be useless in our household. You might also find, as we did with our Prime and many others do with their PHEVs, that the daily EV operation reminds you every day just how much ICE sucks. If you find yourself trying to avoid ICE use no matter how trivial, you have fallen into the PHEV trap.

That's really a good question. I looked at EVs too. My other interest was the Tesla 3 but decided against it for a few reasons (no fed tax credits ,not enough range and a just not as big as the RAV4).

I think in the end I'd probably have gotten a RAV4 hybrid. I wanted the extra room the RAV4 offers over cars plus some towing ability and cross bars up top. I probably lied about EV use above on my new Prime. I'll probably go on a few road trips/vacations per year where the gas engine and the ~500 miles or so on a tank will come in handy. So 95% EV driving when I'm not on trips.

My plan is to keep the prime until there's an EV SUV that's more affordable than the Tesla Y and bigger than Kona, Niro etc...

The Rav4 Prime is top of our list, what state do you live in? I've been checking at our local dealer and last I checked a month?? ago, they were not available. Our usage sounds similar, I'd plan on 99% EV around town but the couple times/year 500+ mile trip. With the Rav4 PHEV I'm hoping to get rid of our '07 Prius we use for road trips and one of our Leafs, used by my wife for a 20 mile RT work commute, I could care less abut all the power the Rav4 has but do like the ability to tow a small trailer with it and increased space over our Leaf. I'm happy with the space in the Prius but don't like the low to the ground in/out nor low headroom where I frequently hit my head!
 
jjeff said:
RonSwanson said:
SageBrush said:
What would you have bought without the PHEV incentive ?

By the way, the RAV Prime has the potential to be an outstanding environmental and value choice. I thought about buying one also, until I realized that the ICE would be useless in our household. You might also find, as we did with our Prime and many others do with their PHEVs, that the daily EV operation reminds you every day just how much ICE sucks. If you find yourself trying to avoid ICE use no matter how trivial, you have fallen into the PHEV trap.

That's really a good question. I looked at EVs too. My other interest was the Tesla 3 but decided against it for a few reasons (no fed tax credits ,not enough range and a just not as big as the RAV4).

I think in the end I'd probably have gotten a RAV4 hybrid. I wanted the extra room the RAV4 offers over cars plus some towing ability and cross bars up top. I probably lied about EV use above on my new Prime. I'll probably go on a few road trips/vacations per year where the gas engine and the ~500 miles or so on a tank will come in handy. So 95% EV driving when I'm not on trips.

My plan is to keep the prime until there's an EV SUV that's more affordable than the Tesla Y and bigger than Kona, Niro etc...

The Rav4 Prime is top of our list, what state do you live in? I've been checking at our local dealer and last I checked a month?? ago, they were not available. Our usage sounds similar, I'd plan on 99% EV around town but the couple times/year 500+ mile trip. With the Rav4 PHEV I'm hoping to get rid of our '07 Prius we use for road trips and one of our Leafs, used by my wife for a 20 mile RT work commute, I could care less abut all the power the Rav4 has but do like the ability to tow a small trailer with it and increased space over our Leaf. I'm happy with the space in the Prius but don't like the low to the ground in/out nor low headroom where I frequently hit my head!

Hey there, I'm located in Los Angeles. Most dealers around here are charging 5-10k over MSRP but I found a dealer that gave me the vehicle at MSRP, which still isn't ideal, but about as good as it gets. I got the base model so about 39k msrp (a few accessories added). I'll get $9500 back ($7500 tax credit, $1000 CA rebate, $1000 Utility Rebate) so that brings down the price to 29.5k + taxes/fees, which is a great deal on this vehicle in my opinion.

Feel free to reach out by private message if you have any questions as I'm more than happy to help out!
 
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