Replaced 12v Lead with 12v Lithium

GerryAZ said:

I periodically ask the local battery store about lithium replacement for one motorcycle which has an alarm system that drains the battery when parked if I forget to connect a charger (even AGM does not tolerate repeated deep discharge). They sold lithium motorcycle batteries several years ago for a short time, but had too many problems. I saw a poster for lithium motorcycle batteries when I was in a couple weeks ago. I asked about them and found out they are starting to sell them again (different brand than before), but only by special order for now. I may try one for that motorcycle, but they told me that deep discharge might impact the internal BMS system (I don't understand why, but that is what I was told).

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That last comment suggests they don't have a deep (pun intended) understanding of the subject, but I know from your many years of forum participation that you can probably figure it out. Remember that Lithium batteries can survive a much deeper discharge than any lead acid counterpart, and I have never had an issue with my mine (no matter how long I've operated in "accessory mode" or let my car sit at the airport). I would give it a try on your motorcycle...and post back with your experience.

Stanton,

I edited my post slightly and will likely try one when I need a new battery for that bike. I asked for technical information about the batteries they now offer by special order, but they did not have any so I will search online. I am also interested in learning what brands of 12V lithium batteries people have had good experience with.

The biggest problem with lithium batteries is that they always come with a BMS, and these Chinese BMS units are at least as likely to fail as is a lead acid battery over a few years. (Yes, some will not fail and the batteries will be fine for 10 years or more.) It's a real problem in the world of small EVs. We are sold on the idea that a BMS is vital if you want a lithium battery, but they are also the most likely failure point. I didn't understand at first why the man who converted my Vectrix to Leaf cell power didn't install a BMS (he did install balance leads) but now I do. It should be possible to make a 12 volt battery replacement using either 3 Leaf cells charged to full, or 4 cells charged to about 85%, with no BMS. The trick is to pick cells that are near perfect and well matched (in fully charged voltage) with each other.

I had a chance to check a friend's Leaf (2015 SV) mentioned below. They had some very, very, light acid damage rust, not much to worry about. But I noticed they were using a completely different brand battery than the one's that Nissan provide, they were using a Duracell (yeah, the same company that makes AA batteries at the store :shock: ) The battery itself showed no signs of any acid leak around the top or sides. They told me it was replaced shortly after purchasing their Leaf in 2015 after the 12v from the dealer died within months, they got battery replaced and sent the bill to the dealership for the battery it seems, they didn't want the dealership battery. :lol:

knightmb said:

I am actually going to check a friend's leaf (2015, they are still using lead acid) to see if the same issue exist for them.

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My leafs next 12v battery will be of the lead acid variety. Most likely the biggest AGM I can make fit in the battery area.

Oh and there's only like 3 lead acid battery manufacturers left in the United States. So all the dozens and dozens of brands you see, they were likely made at one of those 3 factories.
That's Johnson controls, exide and east penn.
JC and exide are 80 to 90% of the market.

I had good service from Optima yellow top (deep cycle) AGM batteries in the 2011 and 2015 so I plan to put one in the 2019 as soon as the Nissan OEM battery starts showing signs of deterioration. The original 51R size is adequate for my use so I will stay with that size to avoid the need for changes to the battery box or hold-down hardware.

I will probably try a lithium battery in one motorcycle when it needs a new battery.

GerryAZ said:

I edited my post slightly and will likely try one when I need a new battery for that bike. I asked for technical information about the batteries they now offer by special order, but they did not have any so I will search online. I am also interested in learning what brands of 12V lithium batteries people have had good experience with.

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Here are the two manufacturers of 12v Lithium batteries I recommend the most (good for motorcycle and car):

https://www.lithiumpros.com/ (I have had the C925 in my Leaf for years...and I did not pay "list" price)
https://antigravitybatteries.com/ (I use their "Battery Tracker" product and their ATX20-HD would work well in a Leaf)

These are American designed and made products.
It's easy to fit these smaller batteries in the Leaf.
Enjoy!

These are American designed and made products.

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AFAIK there are no lithium battery cells being manufactured in the US for sale in the US. They may use cells from Asia, or cell components bought from an Asian manufacturer and assembled here.

LeftieBiker said:

These are American designed and made products.

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AFAIK there are no lithium battery cells being manufactured in the US for sale in the US. They may use cells from Asia, or cell components bought from an Asian manufacturer and assembled here.

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Well...you are wrong (not that it invalidates my point that these are not Chinese designed products from Chinese companies). Why do you have to reply (negatively) to nearly every one of my posts in this thread?

Stanton said:

LeftieBiker said:

These are American designed and made products.

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AFAIK there are no lithium battery cells being manufactured in the US for sale in the US. They may use cells from Asia, or cell components bought from an Asian manufacturer and assembled here.

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Well...you are wrong (not that it invalidates my point that these are not Chinese designed products from Chinese companies). Why do you have to reply (negatively) to nearly every one of my posts in this thread?

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An American company that comes to mind:
Tesla makes them at the Gigafactory in Nevada. Now before someone says it, yes Panasonic is doing it, but still technically being made in the US. :mrgreen:

I know that auto makers are producing batteries for their cars in the US. That's why I wrote "for sale." I don't intend to hound you and will try to avoid doing so.

You must have very deep pockets.
The link provided by the OP on the very first post in this thread shows a $799 battery (out of stock)!
Back the Google search for my 2018 Leaf.

Scratchy101 said:

You must have very deep pockets.
The link provided by the OP on the very first post in this thread shows a $799 battery (out of stock)!
Back the Google search for my 2018 Leaf.

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This thread is over 5 years old: commerce links just don't last that long.
If you look just one page back from this page, you will find some (newer) links to some currently available Lithium 12v batteries.

Goodmorning,
Time has come to change the 12V battery on our 2014 Tekna / SL.
Car is a muxsan adapted car with a 85KWh battery pack, 22KW charger etc.
Trying to spend money wisely and planning on keeping this car for another 20 years - currently 212.000km.

Here is my question:
Running OVMS was a bit of a problem for the current battery.
How much AH would you suggest to be necessary to run that service continuously?
Would the Lithium 20AH still be enough or should I go for a lithium 50AH version?.

antoinem01 said:

Here is my question:
Running OVMS was a bit of a problem for the current battery.
How much AH would you suggest to be necessary to run that service continuously?
Would the Lithium 20AH still be enough or should I go for a lithium 50AH version?.

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I've been running OVMS on the same Lithium 12v (20Ah) battery for almost 2 years now...so I would say that should be fine.

Okay good to hear.
Slightly off topic Any special settings I may have done wrong in OVMS to make it suck up so much energy?

Haste prevented me to go through with the plan to change to lithium for now - have to be on the road tomorrow and temperatures are below zero her in the Netherlands at the moment - car wasn't starting up anymore.

May ditch the battery now installed (Bosch thing) and still move to lithium when time allows. I can always make someone happy with a new battery, I guess.

Been scouring Amazon for a Leaf-compatible battery, and finally found something:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BDVVXDX3/?coliid=I18A08SWRC0YPW&colid=7H02C6AB69W2&ref_=gv_ov_lig_pi_dp&th=1

Widthwise it will fit, although it is shorter than the original and 51R size in general...

Just wondering if anybody had any experience with this battery/manufacturer, and if there is something I am not seeing that would make it a no-go. Price is very appealing ($140), and there is even a $10 coupon right now. Thinking of giving it a go, for the price it does not seem to have any downsides...

(I know about Ohmmu, but it's 3X the price, there is also Powertex at $550 and Antigravity at $$$)

My concern with the amazon battery listed above is it looks like it has a 250w or 20 amp charge controller. While most likely that would be ok if you go over that it looks like the controller shuts it down. I haven't checked but I would think you could pull closer to 50 amps with everything 12v running. Of course as long as the car is in "ready" mode the traction battery would supply the power with the small one acting as a buffer.

Thanks for a quick look, Brock. Would it not just limit charging to 20A, though? Seems OK to me, why would I want to charge it faster than that?

They state they can supply 36A continuous or 10C pulse on the discharge side...

I see what you mean though, you may run out of battery if pulling 50A and only charging at 20A... That's why I installed LED's everywhere I could, the only big item is the heat pump I think - how much does it pull? I thought most (if not all) of the heat pump power comes from the big battery, not the 12V one...

From the reviews it says it shuts off if overloaded. Say you didn't have the car in ready mode, just in "aux" mode and turned some 12v stuff on, it could trip off and then you would have 0v and no way to start the Leaf except jump starting it which sounds like it resets the controller back on. So it's not just a limit on charging it is a limit on draw. Although the Leaf can charge crazy fast over 100a, which would also likely trip out the charge controller on the battery shutting it off and then the car would shut off as well. Think of it like a circuit breaker not letting more than 20 amps in or out and if exceeded it stays off until it sees a stable 12v supply to reset itself.