Volkswagen ID.4 CUV

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DaveinOlyWA said:
Leasing is dumb from a financial standpoint,



Eliminating options w/o investigation is dumber. There is a reason why a LOT of people lease and it aint because they are dumb.

Three reasons:
EV tax credit. Lease to own, let the leasing company collect the tax credit if you don't have the tax liability to collect the full amount.
Business car use. Talk to your accountant. If they say lease, lease.
Incentives. A buddy of mine went to buy a LEAF, came to work with a leased LEAF. Total of all payments was less than the price he could get for a purchase, even counting tax credit. Usually not the case.
 
WetEV said:
DaveinOlyWA said:
Leasing is dumb from a financial standpoint,



Eliminating options w/o investigation is dumber. There is a reason why a LOT of people lease and it aint because they are dumb.

Three reasons:
EV tax credit. Lease to own, let the leasing company collect the tax credit if you don't have the tax liability to collect the full amount.
Business car use. Talk to your accountant. If they say lease, lease.
Incentives. A buddy of mine went to buy a LEAF, came to work with a leased LEAF. Total of all payments was less than the price he could get for a purchase, even counting tax credit. Usually not the case.

"Usually" is changing just as fast as EVs are changing the transportation landscape. Leasing a gasser is a completely different game. What I should do is add up what I have paid over the decade and see if I am ahead on this game.
 
GRA said:
Leasing info via GCC:
For highly qualified customers through Volkswagen Credit, the monthly lease payment for a 36-month lease with 10,000 miles a year, is $379 per month with $3,579 due at signing, excluding tax, title, license, options and dealer fees.

https://www.greencarcongress.com/2020/09/20200923-vwoa.html

There's also more info there on equipment fit and options.

I am strongly considering leasing one of these, but it will depend entirely on VW's buyout offer. If they let me buy out the lease without repaying the tax credit (unlike the way Chevy does). For me it is a way to reduce risk. VW has a history of wiring issue. And they had the software issues at first with the ID3. I figure 36 months is a good burn-in period. If anything shows up, it's VW's problem. If nothing shows up, I'm more likely to be in the clear. And assuming they have a good buyout policy (a prereq for leasing to me, as stated), I just buy it and keep it.

I am curious about your impressions on the car. It seems to fit (or come close to) a lot of your desirements for an EV. For example, I'm sure it will be long enough for you to sleep in.
 
GetOffYourGas said:
<Snip>

I am curious about your impressions on the car. It seems to fit (or come close to) a lot of your desirements for an EV. For example, I'm sure it will be long enough for you to sleep in.

As I haven't seen or driven it, I can only give you my impressions based on specs and photos, but here goes.

It's just slightly over the max length I'd prefer to limit it to, 180.5" vs 180"; my Forester is 175.2" which is plenty, and the Niro is 171.7?". OTOH, like most modern cars the wheelbase has been pushed out more towards the ends: the Forester is 99.4" vs. 108.9". This is good if you regularly carry passengers in the rear, but not so good if you want max. cargo space with the rear seats up. The ID.4 is 30.4? Cu. Ft. vs. 32 in the Forester. When carrying heavy, dense objects like scuba tanks I want an upright seat between my body and them, as well as strong tie-downs that will hold them in place in a serious accident.

Length is more important than max. width for me in the area behind the seats, as it's much easier to load/unload and access things like tanks and backpacks if stored lengthwise. I suspect the ID.4 will be a bit short in comparison, but will have to wait until I measure one.

I'll have to hold off on the control ergonomics until I can try them, but I consider having touchscreen rather than physical controls for any control I have to operate while moving to be unsafe and unacceptable. They have provided some physical sliders for temp and volume, and I'll have to see how the rest of the controls and displays work. This is at least a German car, and generally they put more emphasis on function than gadgetry compared to the typical Japanese car, or Tesla.

Similarly, German cars tend to have the ride, handling, seating, steering feel and feedback and driver visibility I want - of the 8 or 9 BEVs I've test driven, the e-Golf was the best in most if not all of those areas, so hopefully that will hold true here.

As far as performance, I'd probably be fine if the AWD version had the same total HP (201) as the RWD version instead of 302, especially if the range were boosted as a consequence. My Forester (165 hp, forget the torque, 3,095 lb curb wgt.) does 0-60 in 9.6 sec. and that has been adequate except on a few mountain roads at very high density altitudes - as a BEV has the same power)torque at any altitude, any accel equal or less than 10 seconds will be adequate, although I'll be happy to take quicker if it doesn't cost me something of more value to me. In any case, passing accel is more important to me than 0-60.

I've been driving Subarus for 32 years, so clearly looks have a low priority for me; how well I can see out and how practical the interior is are far more important to me than what the car looks like from the outside. The ID.4's looks are typical crossover and unobjectionable - enough said. The one thing I do have a question about is the roof slope - some photos seem to show a fairly flat roof, which I want, and others a sloped one which I don't. It's unclear to me if the latter are from the concept and it's now been given a more utilitarian roof. To me the main reason to buy a CUV/SUV is the 'U' function, and detracting from that for reasons of drag is schizophrenic.

I prefer cloth seats and VW tends to use vinyl or leather, but that's what seat covers are for.

Re charging speeds, faster is obviously better for trips. 38 min. 5-80% probably means about 30 from 15-80%, and that's about as low SoC as I'd want to go for both reserve and battery health reasons, although 20% would be better yet. That means about 2 hours at freeway speeds with allowances and reserve followed by 1/2 hour of charging and repeat, which is inadequate for serious road trips but about the best we can expect at current semi-affordable BEV prices, and usefully better than the Niro's 54 minutes from 5?-80% (42 minutes from 20-80%).

And that's about all I can say before we get some reviews or hands-on experience.
 
DaveinOlyWA said:
What I should do is add up what I have paid over the decade and see if I am ahead on this game.
That would be interesting, although I'm not sure how you would value the car you didn't buy but is paid off and presumably available for your use. Perhaps avoided future lease payments.

I find lease value to be degraded by opportunity cost. As an example, close to 4 years ago I learned of cheap off-lease LEAFs so I sold our Honda Fit for $10k (bought 3 years earlier for $15k) and bought the LEAF for $8,300 less a $2,000 tax credit available to Colorado residents. We still have the car and it appears to have years of useful (to us) service in it. People in leases just don't have the flexibility to jump on deals that show up from time to time.

In a similar fashion, I've given some thought to selling our LEAF to buy a cheap, new Bolt in this window of depressed new car sales related to Covid and the upcoming new Bolt. If I find a great deal I'll jump on it and if not I'll stay with the LEAF until something else comes along. That flexibility is worth perhaps 20% of the car price.
 
SageBrush said:
I find lease value to be degraded by opportunity cost. People in leases just don't have the flexibility to jump on deals that show up from time to time.

A lease is a kind of loan. You can pay the balance and own the car at any time. Sure, not the same as owning the car outright and having the title in your safe or your deposit box and can sell it in minutes.
 
The first edition says its sold out.

I wonder if VW dealers are going to pull a Ford or Toyota and price it over msrp gouging their customers? (Mache, rav4prime)

I really liked the yellow/gold color but its not a US color.

Well Poop.
 
danrjones said:
The first edition says its sold out.

I wonder if VW dealers are going to pull a Ford or Toyota and price it over msrp gouging their customers? (Mache, rav4prime)

I really liked the yellow/gold color but its not a US color.

Well Poop.
White Grey Black and Silver only.
 
WetEV said:
danrjones said:
The first edition says its sold out.

I wonder if VW dealers are going to pull a Ford or Toyota and price it over msrp gouging their customers? (Mache, rav4prime)

I really liked the yellow/gold color but its not a US color.

Well Poop.
White Grey Black and Silver only.

Yep. And the regular edition for 2021 doesn't have the yellow shown either.
 
IEVS:
2021 Volkswagen ID.4 $379/Mo Lease: Is It Really A Good Deal?

https://insideevs.com/features/445841/2021-volkswagen-id4-lease-deal-comparison/


. . . According to CarsDirect, despite the attractive lease incentive, the ID.4 will be much more expensive than many current EVs and over triple the cost of leasing a Chevrolet Bolt. We previously announced that people in some areas can lease a Bolt EV for just $154 per month with only $154 due at signing.

The Volkswagen deal applies to the 2021 ID.4 Pro. As soon as it comes out of the gate, people will be able to lease it for $379 per month with $3,579 due at signing. This is a $10,000-mile per-year lease plan. If you roll the down payment into the monthly payment to get a better idea of the effective cost, it works out to nearly $500 per month before taxes and fees.

CarsDirect says the effective payment for the ID.4 is $48 a month more than the Hyundai Kona Electric ($319 per month with $3,999 down). However, it's also $179 less per month than the Tesla Model Y ($499 per month with $5,694 down). The publication's lease deal speculation for the Ford Mustang Mach-E is right on par with that of the Model Y. Ford hasn't made a lease deal official, but CarsDirect says the lease rate "is equivalent to 2.25% APR with 36 and 48-month lease options. . . ."
 
For the cost of a refundable $100, I went ahead and placed a reservation for a 1st edition. One weird thing to note is about the colors. Blue and red are not technically added cost options, but you can only choose them if you select upgraded options.

We take multiple long trips with our kids to our cabin in Oregon each Summer, so I've been looking for something that is a little larger than the Leaf and that also charges faster. Or, at least that charges as fast as the Leaf Plus can, but consistently. So far, the Tesla model Y, Nissan Ariya, Ford Mach-E, and VW ID.4 all meet our criteria. Of those, the Y seems by far the best vehicle, but it's also more money than my wife is willing to pay for a car, and I have to admit she has a point. The Mach-E is similarly expensive, and doesn't seem to be as good of a car, so it's right out. I'm waiting to see what the long-range Ariya will cost, but it has the disadvantage of not being available for a year. The Ariya comes out ahead in my spreadsheet weighing cost vs features, but that's with several assumptions about the cost. So, we'll see. My main concern about the ID.4 is the botched rollout of software for the ID.3 in Europe, and given how much of the car is controlled by the software I don't want to get saddled with something that is effectively unusable.
 
Astros said:
For the cost of a refundable $100, I went ahead and placed a reservation for a 1st edition. One weird thing to note is about the colors. Blue and red are not technically added cost options, but you can only choose them if you select upgraded options.

We take multiple long trips with our kids to our cabin in Oregon each Summer, so I've been looking for something that is a little larger than the Leaf and that also charges faster. Or, at least that charges as fast as the Leaf Plus can, but consistently. So far, the Tesla model Y, Nissan Ariya, Ford Mach-E, and VW ID.4 all meet our criteria. Of those, the Y seems by far the best vehicle, but it's also more money than my wife is willing to pay for a car, and I have to admit she has a point. The Mach-E is similarly expensive, and doesn't seem to be as good of a car, so it's right out. I'm waiting to see what the long-range Ariya will cost, but it has the disadvantage of not being available for a year. The Ariya comes out ahead in my spreadsheet weighing cost vs features, but that's with several assumptions about the cost. So, we'll see. My main concern about the ID.4 is the botched rollout of software for the ID.3 in Europe, and given how much of the car is controlled by the software I don't want to get saddled with something that is effectively unusable.

Hard to be a fan of a car that doesn't exist but on paper, but it has potential. It is not a lot larger than the LEAF although leg room in on par with the #1 Bolt. Cargo space with passengers a bit bigger. The real issue will be supply which means minimal discounting so the cost will be significantly higher than the LEAF Plus probably until the US factory launches. I like that factory hitch is available so at least VW admits to what everyone else is doing anyway which is towing with their EVs.

Unless something drastic happens in the next 14 months, I will be holding onto my LEAF for a while but this could be contender when the dealing starts.
 
DaveinOlyWA said:
Hard to be a fan of a car that doesn't exist but on paper, but it has potential. It is not a lot larger than the LEAF although leg room in on par with the #1 Bolt. Cargo space with passengers a bit bigger. The real issue will be supply which means minimal discounting so the cost will be significantly higher than the LEAF Plus probably until the US factory launches. I like that factory hitch is available so at least VW admits to what everyone else is doing anyway which is towing with their EVs.

More likely just means people want to use hitch racks for bikes/skis/snowboards. I've never seen anyone towing with a BEV locally but have seen plenty of hitch racks, and the range and charge times make current BEVs poor at towing except at short range. Not to mention the general lack of pull through charging spots, that force tow drivers to either block multiple chargers, a lane, or unhitch.
 
I have to say: this is a pretty underwhelming car given all the hype. How is this a significant advance over the Kona and Niro, cars which are basically two years old at this point? Compared to the Niro/Kona, the ID4 has: 1.) moderately improved cargo space (30 cu ft in the ID4 vs. 23 cu ft in the Niro), and 2.) slightly better rapid charging speeds (average speed from 10-60% SOC: mid 80's kW in the ID4 vs. mid 60's kW in the Niro/Kona). And for these humble improvements, there's also a $5K price increase ($37K for the Kona vs $42K for the ID4). I'll admit, cargo space which puts the ID4 more in line with a CRV or RAV4 is somewhat of a a big deal, but for this car to be the true "car for the millions" it was supposed to be, I would have expected it to hit at least three out of the four following benchmarks: $35K before incentives, 300 miles of range, 30 cu ft cargo space, 100 kW average rapid charging speed from 10-60%. I wouldn't have said this a week ago, but the Ariya is honestly looking like a better car right now, except for the fatal flaw of its hilariously/pathetically small cargo space (who would want an SUV that has less trunk space than a Honda Civic?). So perhaps the Ioniq 5 will be the actual car to wait for...
 
^^^ In general I agree with you, although the ID.4 will eventually offer AWD which is the biggest equipment option lacking on the Kona/Niro/Bolt. At a considerably higher price to be sure, but still a lot less than the Model Y or Mustang.

Also, it will presumably have a capacity warranty like the e-Golf, which the Koreans don't have.

I hope/suspect that VW is low-balling the range as they did with the Taycan, as even with the ID.4's greater size and weight the extra 11-18 kWh between it and the others (not clear if the Bolt and Koreans kWh are usable or total) should give it range that exceeds any of theirs - I was thinking at least 270-275 EPA, and am hoping they may hit 300.

As for charge speed, although it's not a Tesla, a 1/3rd (your calc) to 1/2 (my calc) increase in average charge rate is still usefully better.

Still, I confess I'm considering a Bolt lease now; although the car falls short of my requirements for range/charging speed/space/AWD, there are some excellent deals to be had, the seats don't bother me and it's a fun car to drive. I can either keep my Forester for the trips the Bolt is really unsuited for, or sell it and put up with the Bolt's limitations for three years while I await something better.

The problem with selling is there's no guarantee a car I'll want to buy for the long term will be available then - I suspect it will be more like 5-7 years, so I might find myself three years from now without another relatively inexpensive interim BEV to lease.
 
GRA said:
^^^ In general I agree with you, although the ID.4 will eventually offer AWD which is the biggest equipment option lacking on the Kona/Niro/Bolt. At a considerably higher price to be sure, but still a lot less than the Model Y or Mustang.

Also, it will presumably have a capacity warranty like the e-Golf, which the Koreans don't have.

I hope/suspect that VW is low-balling the range as they did with the Taycan, as even with the ID.4's greater size and weight the extra 11-18 kWh between it and the others (not clear if the Bolt and Koreans kWh are usable or total) should give it range that exceeds any of theirs - I was thinking at least 270-275 EPA, and am hoping they may hit 300.

As for charge speed, although it's not a Tesla, a 1/3rd (your calc) to 1/2 (my calc) increase in average charge rate is still usefully better.

Still, I confess I'm considering a Bolt lease now; although the car falls short of my requirements for range/charging speed/space/AWD, there are some excellent deals to be had, the seats don't bother me and it's a fun car to drive. I can either keep my Forester for the trips the Bolt is really unsuited for, or sell it and put up with the Bolt's limitations for three years while I await something better.

The problem with selling is there's no guarantee a car I'll want to buy for the long term will be available then - I suspect it will be more like 5-7 years, so I might find myself three years from now without another relatively inexpensive interim BEV to lease.

Agreed on the possibly conservative range estimate - I too am hoping for 270-275 EPA.

I may be flat out wrong about the average rapid charging speed. For one, I based my estimate mostly on Bjorn's video of the ID3 charging on an Ionity charger (it never charged higher than 100 kW; and at only 30% SOC, it started levelling off) with the assumption that the ID4 will have the same charging curve (it very well may not). More importantly, your comment prompted me to check several green car websites again, and many of them - Green Car Reports, for example - are claiming 5%-80% gained in 38 minutes, which means a gain of .75 x 77 kWh useable over .63333 hours = 91 kW average charging speed. Is that more or less what you got?

Since you brought up leasing a Bolt, you might consider buying a used Bolt instead and then just re-selling it in three years. On cars.com, 2017 Bolts are starting at around $14K right now. I have to think that 14K minus whatever you can sell it for in three years would be less $ than the cost of a three year lease, but then again, I haven't looked at lease prices in a while. The same goes for 2017 Ioniq EVs by the way - they're about 13K right now. Less range than the Bolt, obviously, but faster rapid charging speeds, more comfortable seats, and more cargo space (though I found the rear visibility in the Ioniq to be poor).
 
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