I should write a Tips & Tricks for Tesla drivers. #1 would be to inform them that slowing down beats sitting around stopped and charging.
The RAV-4 PHEV Topic
- Thread starter LeftieBiker
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Thank you, some actual Rav4 PHEV information in after all this official RAV4 threadOrientExpress said:
Some people get so caught up in the whole EV vs PHEV, which should really be a separate thread it just plugs up a thread like this where people would come to look for RAV4 PHEV info.
I quoted this and will counter it with what I've been told in a non CAFE state.
The RAV4’s popularity has caught quite a few off guard, including Toyota. Combine this with the Covid-19 constraints, and this Japanese manufactured RAV4 is selling as quickly as they are being made, and in some cases, dealers are taking advantage of the scarcity to add quite a bit of dealer markup. We reached out Toyota representative on when supply may catch up with demand and they responded that “Our intent is to increase volume in CY21 as much as possible for us, conditional on the market situation at the time.”
Again in my state my local dealer told me to expect to wait 2-3 years just for the opportunity to be able to plunk down $40k to get a Rav4 Prime
I'm happy I won't have to pay over sticker(I wouldn't just on principle) but the rest of the US apparently won't be able to see this vehicle for years to come....I'm not against Toyota selling first to CAFE states, unfortunately MN isn't one and I really doubt it will ever be, well at least for a very long time. I just like Toyota is making this vehicle available in backward states like mine, Honda and other companies don't always do this and restrict their EV type vehicles to CAFE only states.
OrientExpress
Well-known member
To follow-up with the Tesla new owners thread on FB, here are some of the comments from the seasoned Tesla owners.
DougWantsALeaf
Well-known member
Are those for SR+ or LR model 3s?
danrjones
Well-known member
I don't think its just Tesla who suffers from highway / freeway range reduction. My rule of thumb to figure out MY highway (high speed) range is to take EPA and multiply it by 2/3. For my 2018 leaf the best I can tell it has a real world highway range of around 110 miles, though I've never quite run it to empty, and have no plans to. But the 2/3 rule seems to work when I test routes with ABRP for my Leaf and other EVs.
Actually, maybe that's one advantage to the Hummer (and others) for off roading. I would think EVs will do quite well off roading because you might actually get good range, or range close to EPA, since you are not doing 70 or 80 or 90 mph. A 350 miles EV for off roading might be plenty, if you can get past the price tag of 120 thousand dollars! LOL
But for travel on highways it is an issue, FOR SOME of us.
Back to the rav4 prime, I actually considered trading in my wife's outback for a Rav4 prime, allowing us to have the best of both worlds - use my solar to fuel her up when in town and still have the ICE with good mpg for road trips, since my Leaf can't do road trips. BUT the problem was quite simple. Not enough ravv4 primes around - maybe one per dealer - and some dealers asking 10k over msrp. That's insane. I'm not paying 50k for a rav4 unless is craps gold bars.
Actually, maybe that's one advantage to the Hummer (and others) for off roading. I would think EVs will do quite well off roading because you might actually get good range, or range close to EPA, since you are not doing 70 or 80 or 90 mph. A 350 miles EV for off roading might be plenty, if you can get past the price tag of 120 thousand dollars! LOL
But for travel on highways it is an issue, FOR SOME of us.
Back to the rav4 prime, I actually considered trading in my wife's outback for a Rav4 prime, allowing us to have the best of both worlds - use my solar to fuel her up when in town and still have the ICE with good mpg for road trips, since my Leaf can't do road trips. BUT the problem was quite simple. Not enough ravv4 primes around - maybe one per dealer - and some dealers asking 10k over msrp. That's insane. I'm not paying 50k for a rav4 unless is craps gold bars.
OrientExpress
Well-known member
DougWantsALeaf said:
These conversations are from the Model Y forums, but there are Model S and 3 owners chiming in too. The person who stated the thread said that his EPA range was 312 miles, so which Model Y is that?
jlv
Well-known member
FTFY.LeftieBiker said:
I played around with this question a couple of years ago for fun. It is easiest to solve with calculus as a maxima exercise, and it obviously depends on the charging power. In general the charging power past ~ 70 or 80% SoC is too low to offset high speed driving.LeftieBiker said:
user 24513
Well-known member
Another part of the calculitic equation that is interesting is that, apparently, an electric car can accelerate to speed as fast as it wants to without efficiency penalty, unlike an ICE car whose gas motor is not operating as efficiently during the jackrabbit starts.... So, accelerating and slowing down rapidly are not factors in overall mileage.
dmacarthur said:
I think that this is overstated, because I'd bet dollars to donuts that waste heat production increases with high acceleration, as the controller at least (and maybe the motor and cabling, depending on the EV) works outside of its most efficient parameters. It is probably true that there is no measurable penalty for accelerating somewhat briskly as opposed to slowly.
user 24513
Well-known member
My inlaws just bought a Tesla, they have been known to accelerate "somewhat" briskly!
goldbrick
Well-known member
Accelerating quickly also gets the car to a faster velocity sooner so it will spend more time pushing air at that velocity than a slower start. Probably not measurable but it's a factor.
I think the bigger contributor would be the quick stops. This implies brake use which converts kinetic energy to heat with an efficiency of about 100%. Using regen will get some of that back but there are losses there as well. So start fast if you like but coast as long as possible before stopping if maximum range is the goal.
I think the bigger contributor would be the quick stops. This implies brake use which converts kinetic energy to heat with an efficiency of about 100%. Using regen will get some of that back but there are losses there as well. So start fast if you like but coast as long as possible before stopping if maximum range is the goal.
DougWantsALeaf
Well-known member
You also have more heat loss with both acceleration and regen/stopping than gentle velocity changes.
danrjones
Well-known member
goldbrick said:
That also may be more or less of an impact based on the EV. I haven't driven a Tesla but don't they ONLY do regen on one pedal driving? That is, if you hit the brake, it never uses regen?
One thing I DO like on the leaf is how smooth it is between brake and regen, and the fact I can choose two pedal driving and still get regen. You might be tempted to ask why use two pedals, and the answer is that my Leaf always turns one pedal or epedal back off, so sometimes for short drives I forget. Moreover, because my wife often drives our outback, when she does drive the leaf it is easier to keep her using two pedal driving. So its nice to get that regen from the actual brake pedal.
GRA
Well-known member
SageBrush said:
Please explain how prior ownershio of a PHEV gives you some special insight into the operational capabilities of liquid-fueled ICEs and their infrastructure vs. BEVs and theirs. After all, everyone here has decades of experience with the former, regardless of whether the ICE is powering the car directly or through an electric motor as an HEV.
Re subsidies, without them, perks like SO HOV stickers, free parking and no tills, and government mandates or ZEV zones, BEV sales would similarly dry up. All AFV sales remain dependent on one or more of the above, except those sold to people for whom transportation value for the dollar is of little or no concern.
BTW, my ICE is rated at 27 HWY (25 under the current test regimen), and I normally get 28-30 on trips, which constitute 90-95% of my usage.
I had missed this. We had a PHEV in our two person family for seven years. We got it at my urging. I drove it often some years, less often others. I worked on it occasionally. It was actually me who, along with other PIP drivers, hounded Toyota to add cabin heat, preferably a heat pump. Does the fact that my name wasn't on the title really mean anything?
(BTW: the saying is "let alone")
WetEV
Well-known member
GRA said:
BS and off topic. Bicycle has better "transportation value per dollar", how many people are cycling to work? Transportation is more than getting from A to B. iMiev was probably the cheapest car new car to own for many in the PNW in 2011, and did many sell? No.
GRA said:
Almost the reverse of the average American usage. 85% trip miles under 100 miles.
https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/policyinformation/pubs/pl08021/fig4_5.cfm
GRA should drive an ICE.
So back to PHEVs. They make sense if you have long trips beyond easy BEV infrastructure AND have lots of short trips in battery range. Your four yearly trips to Sleeping Buffalo, Montana will be just as easy as if you had an ICE, and you daily trips will be just as nice as if you had a BEV.
A BEV would be better if you have lots of short trips and few trips beyond range into places with reasonable BEV infrastructure.
Hydrogen might make sense for long distance trucking.
The cheapest way of getting there is likely walking, bicycle or bus.
Yes, that was a typo.LeftieBiker said:
You often characterize the other person that lives in the house you live in as your 'housemate.' And it was her car (and I presume her money), not yours. So it seemed reasonable to exclude you from the dataset. Have I brought you two closer together ?
Pretty much, although *some* coasting rather than max coasting is also quite effective in a car with regen.goldbrick said:
I've estimated stopping losses while driving my Tesla in our small-ish city.
The Tesla has excellent regen -- on the order of 2/3 of KE.
If my baseline is 40 mph to 0 mph using friction brakes,
Then in comparison in my Tesla:
I coast down to 30 mph, and then collect 2/3 of the KE available
The coasting used up 1/4 of the starting speed, so 9/16 of the initial KE remain
Regen takes up 2/3 of the 9/16, leaving behind 1/3 of 9/16 = 3/16 of the starting KE as heat
If I didn't coast then 1/3 of the starting KE would turn into heat
We have a shared budget. Think of our household as a cooperate rather than a rooming house.