GRA
Well-known member
Montrose and Estes Park are both showing as open on Plugshare and the CP app.
Colorado Electric Vehicle Fast-Charging Corridors
- Thread starter dgpcolorado
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dgpcolorado
Well-known member
Hoping to head down and check Montrose in the next day or two (it is a 70 mile trip so I wait until I need groceries).GRA said:
GRA
Well-known member
Estes Park has disappeared from Plugshare's map but is still shown on CP's app, and there was a check-in by a LEAF at 12:54 today.
dgpcolorado
Well-known member
One of the two stalls in Montrose CO is on. The other is "Unavailable," perhaps because the shipping crates block access to the front side of the pedestal. The stalls "share" 125 kW so I presume that they are the usual 62.5 kW each. The rate is a stiff 20¢/kWh plus 25¢/min, an increasingly common rate in Colorado.
^ Stall 2 on the left is "Available." This DCFC station is a joint project of the State of Colorado and DMEA (Delta-Montrose Electric Association), the local power co-op.
^ The shipping crates block easy access to the front of one stall.
^ Stall 2 on the left is "Available." This DCFC station is a joint project of the State of Colorado and DMEA (Delta-Montrose Electric Association), the local power co-op.
^ The shipping crates block easy access to the front of one stall.
GRA
Well-known member
For a LEAF or a Bolt, 20¢/kWh + 25¢/ min. means you're paying over 45¢/kWh initially, with the price rising from there, which isn't competitive with gas (gasbuddy shows prices in Montrose around $2.26-$2.33/gal.). And the cars which will impose the highest demand charges will pay the least per kWh :roll:
cwerdna
Well-known member
20 cents/kWh for DC FC by CA standards wouldn't be bad but yeah, the 25 cents a minute on top of that is pretty crappy.dgpcolorado said:
I'm guessing they won't be used very much...
dgpcolorado
Well-known member
^ While I agree that such expensive DCFC charging won't be used much by locals, as part of a road trip expense it is less of an issue, considering the other expenses of travel. If using lodging (hotels/camping) with destination charging, one starts out with a full battery each day. For shorter trips, say an out and back from home with one or two DCFC stops enroute, home charging covers a lot of the miles on both ends of the trip.
Nevertheless, I'd much rather see a flat 30¢/kWh, or something simple like that. By way of comparison, the residential rate for DMEA is about 11¢/kWh.
Access Fee = $150.00/month
Energy Charge = $0.17000/kWh
Member Demand Charge = $2.00/kW
Idle Service Charge per month = $75.00/month
[I believe that this rate was formally adopted by the DMEA board in October.]
So, if the ChargePoint station drew 125 kW at some point in the month, the demand charge would be $250 for that month. It wouldn't matter how many times that threshold was reached. (It might actually be somewhat higher if the stations deliver 125 kW but they draw somewhat more than that.)
Nevertheless, I'd much rather see a flat 30¢/kWh, or something simple like that. By way of comparison, the residential rate for DMEA is about 11¢/kWh.
A technical note: that's not really how demand charges work. They are usually set by the highest power draw in any fifteen minute period in a month. So, if at any time the station draws the full 125 kW for fifteen minutes, that would set the demand charge at the maximum for the month. The actual DMEA proposed EV charge station tariff for three-phase stations of 50 kW or more:GRA said:
Access Fee = $150.00/month
Energy Charge = $0.17000/kWh
Member Demand Charge = $2.00/kW
Idle Service Charge per month = $75.00/month
[I believe that this rate was formally adopted by the DMEA board in October.]
So, if the ChargePoint station drew 125 kW at some point in the month, the demand charge would be $250 for that month. It wouldn't matter how many times that threshold was reached. (It might actually be somewhat higher if the stations deliver 125 kW but they draw somewhat more than that.)
GRA
Well-known member
^^^ Thanks for posting the details. With those access and idle fees, I agree the demand charges become far less significant, and doing it by the kW instead of a kW range makes things fairer.
Remember back when we were all taken aback by 70 cents a kWh in Europe at the Ionity chargers ?dgpcolorado said:
Slow charging EVs like the LEAF are not much cheaper
One silver lining though: people are going to learn to not charge much past a SoC of 60% if they do not need the charge to reach their next charging stop.
DougWantsALeaf
Well-known member
I do feel for ev drivers that have no home charging. They do need an economical option. For your occasional road trip, the price premium for a dc charge is ok with me, as I want there to be working infrastructure to support the trip.
dgpcolorado
Well-known member
Yes. For those who don't have home charging, it also acts as an incentive to find and use cheaper L2 charging.SageBrush said:
Educating new EV road trippers to charge only enough to make the next stop, plus a reasonable buffer for something unexpected, such as a strong headwind, is going to be a long process. The ICE mentality of "fill it up" at fuel stops is going to be hard to break for many.
GRA
Well-known member
dgpcolorado said:
Of course, until the charging station density and their reliability radically improve, 'a reasonable buffer' may require an extra 70-120 miles worth of charge. If you're also unwilling to deplete your battery below say 20% SoC except in emergencies for longevity reasons, then as a practical matter you're limited to a maximum of just 60% (QC to 80%, reserve of 20%) of whatever the battery's usable capacity/range is at that time, before any allowance for conditions.
A nominal 200 mile HWY BEV thus has at best just 120 miles of usable range between QCs, considerably less after allowances. Subtract any degradation and you need to charge well over 80% of the remaining usable capacity, and you can forget keeping 'a reasonable buffer' to get you to the next station in most rural areas, given their current spacing.
dgpcolorado
Well-known member
While I agree that 200 EPA is too little for easy road trips I've been doing them successfully with much less (my car has been at 178 EPA rated miles for the last several years and I have no trouble with 6000 mile road trips). A lot depends on the nav software (does it estimate battery percentage at destination in real time and is it reliable?) and driver experience. Tesla has had reliable nav software for years; how that will shake out for VW, GM, BMW, Ford and all the rest remains to be seen.GRA said:
Once cars are routinely above 300 miles EPA range, road trips become really easy. Once DCFC is almost as ubiquitous as gas stations, road trips will be easy. The former is pretty much here but the latter will take some time.
Your assumption of 20% as a lower limit to preserve the battery isn't reasonable. Occasionally going down to 5% or so is no big deal, as is charging to 100% just before setting out on a trip. Setting artificial limits on battery use to limit usable range is not reasonable for road trips. That's simply not how it works (nor should it). Keeping the battery in that 20% to 80% temperate zone for local driving is fine. So is using the whole battery on occasion when needed, so long as it isn't left at high or low charge.
GRA
Well-known member
dgpcolorado said:
I'm not aware of any Li-ion chemistry that is comfortable being depleted semi-routinely to 5%, although you can of course do so if you choose. But that implies what is to me an inadequate reserve: 5% of 178 is only 8.9 miles. Personally, I want a soft reserve of 20%, and a hard reserve of the greater of 15% or 30 miles. That latter number has long been used by CR as a reserve when calculating a car's range, but is often wholly inadequate for BEVs given the current spacing of stations.
Perhaps our different attitude to what we're willing to do to a battery depends on a different attitude towards a car's expected usable lifetime. For me, that's >= 15 years.
As to what range is adequate on trips, you're retired and thus can afford to spend more time enroute. Even if that weren't the case, I suspect you possess far more patience than I do. :lol: And while your S60's range is far too limited for me, it does at least charge considerably faster than the Bolt I drove across the Sierra and back, including having to spend over an hour gnashing my teeth in a Walmart parking lot while it charged from 77 to 100%. Given better charging site locations, closer spacing and more reliability of charging I wouldn't have had to do that, but lacking all of the above on that trip, especially the latter, it proved to be essential that I did so.
All that being said, I don't think 300 EPA miles will be enough for the general public, because in their mind those miles come with a whole host of understood conditions common to ICEs, most of which don't now, and in some cases may never apply to BEVs. For example, to provide a practical range for the life of a BEV roughly comparable to a "300 mile" (HWY+ reserve) ICE, the BEV would need something around 700 miles of range. This is based on the following, and only covers 8 rather than 15 years, as that's the longest capacity warranty currently offered): 700 x .7 (degradation) = 490 x .6 = 294 miles. Note I'm not including any allowance for HVAC use or adverse conditions, all of which are included in the ICE's "300 mile + reserve" range.
To me, the above calc indicates that the most important factors in an improved battery are reducing degradation over time, and also allowing a wider SoC range to be used without hastening degradation. Failing that, battery leasing.
salyavin
Well-known member
I am always surprised to find how many people here in Colorado do very limited or no road trips even near me in a somewhat "well off" area. Some don't want to go more than 15 minutes to go shopping as well. While some go skiing 200 miles covers that, I myself take the LEAF plus up to breckenridge and camp and leadville etc. without charging (arriving not going and returning). In my case I have done three charge trips and I am find with that the main problem the LEAF has the heat which kills the charge rate sometimes in the 2nd and certainly the third in the summer. The Bolt, a guy I am friendly with has he takes to Yellowstone or various other multistate trips. It works with careful planning. To me 200 was always the magic number for road trips. more is always better and gives you more chances should a DCFC be down or gives you access to other areas easier. I really think range anxiety for the vast majority of people is in their head especially when you have 200 mile batteries. Yes there are places that are very hard to get to (finding an RV outlet or other pain in the rearstuff or nothing at all) like a lot of Wyoming but not everyone goes there. Building DCFC every 70 to 100 miles as Colorado is working on is great. L2 at stores, workplaces, state parks (Chatfield, Staunton etc.), are a great help to people without home charging. How far do you think people commute or drive regularly that 300 is not enough. I seriously do not buy it other than some misunderstanding in peoples heads leading to range anxiety. Drive from Colorarado Springs to DTC and back no problem then charge at home overnight. I drive from very south Denver almost Castle Rock to Fort Collins to visit family and back on one charge even when snowing in a plus.
dgpcolorado
Well-known member
ChargePoint CCS/Chademo charging has opened in Steamboat Springs, Del Norte, and Fairplay. Prices are all over the map:
Del Norte, one stall (another coming? Says power is shared, also "power reduced"), Cost: "free"
Fairplay, two stalls at the Fairplay Visitor's Center, 20¢/kWh plus 25¢/minute
Steamboat Springs, two stalls at Kum & Go, 20¢/kWh
Montrose, two stalls, 20¢/kWh plus 25¢/minute
Pagosa Springs, two stalls, 30¢/kWh
Salida, two stalls, 20¢/kWh plus 20¢/minute
Buena Vista, one stall, 54.6¢/kWh from 10 PM to 4 PM, $1.329/kWh from 4 PM to 10 PM
Colorado Springs, one stall CCS only, free
Grand Junction, one stall at a Stop N Save, 25¢/kWh plus 10¢/min from 5 AM to 11 PM
Dinosaur, two stalls, 20¢/kWh plus 25¢/minute
Meeker, one stall, 25¢/kWh
Carbondale, one stall, 14¢/kWh
Basalt, one stall, free
Crested Butte, one stall, 20¢/kWh plus 25¢/minute
Gypsum, two stalls at Eagle County Airport, 10¢/kWh
Eagle, one stall at the park and ride, 10¢/kWh
Edwards, one stall, 24¢/kWh from 12 AM to 4 PM, 75¢/kWh from 4 PM to 9 PM, free from 9 PM to 12 AM
Avon, one stall, free
As always: YMMV.
Del Norte, one stall (another coming? Says power is shared, also "power reduced"), Cost: "free"
Fairplay, two stalls at the Fairplay Visitor's Center, 20¢/kWh plus 25¢/minute
Steamboat Springs, two stalls at Kum & Go, 20¢/kWh
Montrose, two stalls, 20¢/kWh plus 25¢/minute
Pagosa Springs, two stalls, 30¢/kWh
Salida, two stalls, 20¢/kWh plus 20¢/minute
Buena Vista, one stall, 54.6¢/kWh from 10 PM to 4 PM, $1.329/kWh from 4 PM to 10 PM
Colorado Springs, one stall CCS only, free
Grand Junction, one stall at a Stop N Save, 25¢/kWh plus 10¢/min from 5 AM to 11 PM
Dinosaur, two stalls, 20¢/kWh plus 25¢/minute
Meeker, one stall, 25¢/kWh
Carbondale, one stall, 14¢/kWh
Basalt, one stall, free
Crested Butte, one stall, 20¢/kWh plus 25¢/minute
Gypsum, two stalls at Eagle County Airport, 10¢/kWh
Eagle, one stall at the park and ride, 10¢/kWh
Edwards, one stall, 24¢/kWh from 12 AM to 4 PM, 75¢/kWh from 4 PM to 9 PM, free from 9 PM to 12 AM
Avon, one stall, free
As always: YMMV.
DougWantsALeaf
Well-known member
I have a lot of relatives in Del Norte. Sounds like an excuse for a road trip.
GRA
Well-known member
Just to avoid any confusion, while dgp's list are all Chargepoint stations, only the ones I've marked with an asterisk (think I got them all) are one of the of the state's 34 sites in their 6 electric vehicle fast charging corridors. The rest are independent of that, albeit useful, mainly off-interstate rural sites as many are.
dgpcolorado said:
dgpcolorado
Well-known member
I believe that you are right about those but it is possible that some of the ones you marked were placed independent of the state charging corridors project (I don't care to research them since it really doesn't matter much). I do know that the Montrose station is part of the state project and it is marked as such on one of the stalls.GRA said:
Given that two ChargePoint stalls per site doesn't allow much redundancy, the more locations the better in the remote areas of the state. If a driver gets to Dinosaur and the two stalls are down, it could be a long day scrambling for "plan B"!
GRA
Well-known member
dgpcolorado said:
Some of the state-financed sites have also been moved, e.g. Conifer is now apparently going to be in Indian Hills, while the state site which was to be in Silverton has apparently been split into two, at Ouray and Purgatory Resort instead. I thought Silverton was a good choice, located in between high passes both north and south of it, but the new sites are spaced better and on both north and south sides of the group of three passes. This splitting into two may be why the total # of state sites increased from 33 to 34.
One indication that the site is possibly state-financed is that they all have (at least) two CCS/CHAdeMO chargers, and IIRC the sites had to have the necessary electrical capacity to double the number of chargers if/when needed.
