Battery Upgrades are very possible

When you are ready, maybe try ev rides (in Oregon I think).

Next year I might be willing to use one of my Pluses as a guinea pig (and of course pay for it).

Have you extended any Plus models yet? Any complication charging at the faster 200-300 amp rate with extender pack?
(I have 0 depth in electrical concepts as an fyi)

I'm curious at what point all that pack weight will impact the drivability and safety of the car. A 62 kWh pack weighs over 400 kg already, an extender likely another 200 kg. I'm wondering, how much does that leave, for passengers and cargo, to stay under the GVWR?

The e-plus actually has an already-modified suspension and can handle almost exactly the same amount of additional cargo.

We're expecting to extend an e-plus somewhere in february-ish. From a technical perspective there is basically no difference with gen1-4, but we're definitely getting into 'is it really worth it?'-territory with these main battery sizes. We're probably going to sell a lot more extender batteries once we get new cells, active cooling and some other serious QoL improvements figured out (which will be around late 2021).

Edit: and we're already somewhat in contact with Anton from EV Rides, they're already using our CAN bridges for a few things (right now it's independent from our extender products, but I'm sure that they will be happy to serve their local niche when we have the production capacity)

Awesome on all accounts.


I saw it looks like Kia is moving the Niro from a 64kWh pack to an 80 kWh pack. Has cell size reduced enough that Nissan might consider upping pack capacity one more time in the existing package?

For as much as the Leaf is not overly competitive in many aspects now, the fact they have kept the battery form the same over the 10 years...is kind of odd advantage as it opened up the aftermarket different from many other scaled evs.

DougWantsALeaf said:

For as much as the Leaf is not overly competitive in many aspects now, the fact they have kept the battery form the same over the 10 years...is kind of odd advantage as it opened up the aftermarket different from many other scaled evs.

Click to expand...

This is what I hung my hat on (bold added by me above) when I bought my Leaf, because Nissan made a big deal about their "reusable EV platform". I just thought that Nissan would be the ones pushing capacity upgrades...
Can't wait until a shop in Dallas (or least North Texas) gets on "the list".

I don't really see how the Leaf - especially the Plus - isn't "competitive" when newer offerings from Kia/Hyundai don't drive or handle any better, and have even worse forced option packages. In hotter climates, sure. In cooler ones I really would rather have a Leaf than a Korean EV. Compared to the cars I drove all my life until 2013, the current Leafs are Supercars.

The Leaf tends to compete on:
- Being within budget
- Brand loyalty
- Legspace/headspace (a Big Deal in the Netherlands)
- preference for driving assist features (ProPilot is generally favored over anything but Autopilot)
- General inside space (lots of luggage space, 2/3rds rear seat)
- styling (generally considered one of the prettier EVs)

Most people choose a car based on their color and how it looks, then checkbox features, and everything else is not very important. Most people barely drive their cars so the (advertised) range of even a 2016 Leaf is going to be sufficient. Either that, or you get into the well-known argument of nothing being enough and only 600mi+ EVs being worthy of consideration.

Then after a year or two people come to us to fix the flaws.

Mux, very true. The reason why we didn't buy a Bolt was cargo space, and general driving feel. The Tesla, interior feel and cargo (pre model Y). At 6'2" I am very comfortable, and because seating position is high, its my wife's preferred vehicle for driving (at 5'2").

The Plus also is fine for what most people consider a road trip as our bathroom stops and lunch breaks are already longer than charging stops.

Mux, did you see the G3 has arrived with Chademo too? Do you think the additional models (with Lexus) will give additional life to Chademo in Europe?

DougWantsALeaf said:

Awesome on all accounts.


I saw it looks like Kia is moving the Niro from a 64kWh pack to an 80 kWh pack. Has cell size reduced enough that Nissan might consider upping pack capacity one more time in the existing package?

For as much as the Leaf is not overly competitive in many aspects now, the fact they have kept the battery form the same over the 10 years...is kind of odd advantage as it opened up the aftermarket different from many other scaled evs.

Click to expand...

My guess is Nissan has already done that...with Ariya.

DougWantsALeaf said:

Mux, very true. The reason why we didn't buy a Bolt was cargo space, and general driving feel. The Tesla, interior feel and cargo (pre model Y). At 6'2" I am very comfortable, and because seating position is high, its my wife's preferred vehicle for driving (at 5'2").

The Plus also is fine for what most people consider a road trip as our bathroom stops and lunch breaks are already longer than charging stops.

Mux, did you see the G3 has arrived with Chademo too? Do you think the additional models (with Lexus) will give additional life to Chademo in Europe?

Click to expand...

I don't think a new car coming along with chademo is in any way a hopeful sign. Chademo has significant structural (organizational) issues, severely lacking featureset and slowly getting into an infrastructure crunch. A few models here and there aren't going to fix that unless those brands are going to actively contribute to the build-out of new infrastructure. Xpeng isn't going to do that, they're just interested in breaking into the European market with the cheapest possible model that will sell.

Additionally, it's not just chademo being deficient here - it's CCS (and the SAE and its partner organizations in general) actively trying to ruin the competition. There's no fair fight going on here.

That being said, chademo isn't going down nearly as fast as I expected in 2018. It's very nice that most Shell Recharge stations have a high-power chademo now. I won't use them outside of testing for obvious being-an-oil-company-reasons, but the general public won't care and will be well-served by this new glut of shiny, fairly durable infrastructure. Chademo still has a fair number of years in it, and CDM 2.0 chargers will enable a very cheap upgrade to slightly higher charging power for our customers.

mux said:

That being said, chademo isn't going down nearly as fast as I expected in 2018. It's very nice that most Shell Recharge stations have a high-power chademo now. I won't use them outside of testing for obvious being-an-oil-company-reasons, but the general public won't care and will be well-served by this new glut of shiny, fairly durable infrastructure. Chademo still has a fair number of years in it, and CDM 2.0 chargers will enable a very cheap upgrade to slightly higher charging power for our customers.

Click to expand...

mux - do you see V2X being a determinant in charging type proliferation? Or in reality, the (lack of) availability of the energy conversion equipment being the actual determinant. Nuvve does claim commercial type equipment already available for CCS1.
https://nuvve.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/nuvve-res-hd60-v2g-spec-sheet-1.1.pdf

I realise this is off-topic and move if needed.

Hi Folks;

Thanks to all for this incredible discussion, especially the canbus folks (Muxsan; Daniel Öster, and the awesome New Zealand peeps).

In short, I suspect at some point, I'll need a rear spring part # for a 2011 Leaf after upgrading to 62KwH.

Longer story: I am in the process of having my 2011 Leaf (Beige interior) upgraded to 62KwH in Los Angeles. Side note, he has had difficulty with his Russian Canbus guy for that model, so he turned to Daniel Oster in Finland (Yea Daniel) to get a canbus to installer has promised will work for everything including quick charge. That should be coming soon (hint, hint Daniel).

From Daniel: "Pairing is not needed when using my solution. Original battery ID is pre-programmed onto the CAN-bridge, after that the vehicle can accept
any 24/30/40/62kWh pack."

So...what do people specifically recommend for rear springs and shocks given the new added and probably significant weight change (for this early model) with specific part #s?

Also, I am looking at some point when Michelins wear out into getting larger tires such as:

205/65R16

- This to raise the car ever so slightly.

Especially as I will be installing:

EcoHitch Hidden Trailer Hitch Receiver - Custom Fit - 2"
Item # 306-X7184

To hold a 65 lb electric bike.

I welcome any feedback on any and all matters raised here related to the upgrade:
a. canbus
b. changing suspension in specifics.
c. larger tire / tyre

Thank you all so much. Hope to give my feedback as I go further in the journey (maybe in Jan. 2021)

p.s. did a minor seat upgrade thanks to someone's idea: [soareyes]
(with M8 1.25 x 45 bolt)
(Used 45 mm with some spacer bolts)

https://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?t=9051


addendum 5/21 Installer is MIA, doesn't return calls / texts, has no physical address and has several BBB complaints against him. You've been warned.

E-mail us at [email protected], we have custom rear springs exactly for this purpose.

jbsocdelica said:

...
Longer story: I am in the process of having my 2011 Leaf (Beige interior) upgraded to 62kwh by Pavel in Los Angeles. Side note, he has had difficulty with his Russian Canbus guy for that model, so he turned to Daniel Oster in Finland (Yea Daniel) to get a canbus that Pavel has promised will work for everything including quick charge. That should be coming soon (hint, hint Daniel).
...

Click to expand...

Nice! I would really like a 62kWh pack to experiment with also! Haven't been able to get my hands on one yet.

Please be aware of the current known issues with the BatteryUpgrade software: https://github.com/dalathegreat/BatteryUpgrade-UserManual/issues

It is not 100% yet for the US market, but we are getting there slowly but surely

Total Cost for my project

$7500 62KwH battery
$1300 installation

$8800 (U.S.) or €7200 (Euro)

notes:

using Dala's canbus


Note, in North America (U.S.) I have heard good things about EV Rides:

https://evridesllc.com/battery-upgrade-service/

Their pricing ranges from 11 to 12k (and for the moment, is only available for 2013-2017 models to get to 62 kWh).

For '11 and '12 they do upgrade from 24kWh to 30 and 40kWh for 5k and 9k respectively.

jbsocdelica said:

Total Cost for my project

$7500 62kw battery
$1300 installation

$8800

notes:

using Dala's canbus

Click to expand...

Looks like the "market price" is getting established at <$10k "turnkey". I am hoping someone in Dallas (or at least Texas) will start doing this, as I am getting serious about putting a 40 kWh pack (I don't want the added mechanical/weight issues of a 62 kWh pack) in my 2011 Leaf.

Stanton; yes...though maybe think of the extra weight of roughly 250lb as an extra person you're driving with.

Here are my thoughts in terms of: A) weight, B) suspension, C) suspension and D) overall reflections.

A) Weight:

This is worth pondering: 2011 Leaf with 62 kWh + just over 250 lb extra weight or...

1) Original Weights:

Approximate Original Weight of Nissan Leaf 2011: 4,322 lb / 1960 kg
Approximate Original Weight of Nissan Leaf 2019: 4,751 lb / 2155 kg

2) Difference between two: 429 lb / 195 kg

3) Approximate weights of battery alone:

64 kw weight: 410 kg (904 lb)
24 kw weight: 294 kg (648 lbs

Difference 116 kg (256 lb)

4) Difference after upgrade: Nissan Leaf 2019 (4751) - Nissan Leaf 2011 with 62 kWh (4322 + 256) 4578 : difference 173lb / 78 kg)


B) Suspension:

I haven't upgraded my suspension nor tires yet; noting that in my first test runs, it drives pretty good as it. In fact today, I'm going to take it to Ojai for the turns.

(On Ojai trip: enjoyed it mostly; and indeed did note some suspension differences; seems more dead than my other 2011 Leaf (because of extra weight and maybe springs / struts?). For the record, we had on two bicycles on the 2" hitch (TH990XT):

EcoHitch Hidden Trailer Hitch Receiver - Custom Fit - 2" Item # 306-X7184

https://www.etrailer.com/Trailer-Hitch/EcoHitch/306-X7184.html?feed=npn&gclid=Cj0KCQiA_qD_BRDiARIsANjZ2LDn1uQntnO5hnkXCCbsnrxr-_culma4rAikbxgzyuKsbVSEXZdYPXMaAjPEEALw_wcB

C) Mileage:

Mileage was great even with the load (2 passengers, 2 bikes); at one point guessometer put us at 300 miles left (if we had sustained 40 mph). By the time we finished our 30 mile trip; with some 65 mph stints, we still had over 200 miles estimate on the meter. So far, for my driving 75-86 mph, I get just under 200 miles (with surf racks and Thule hitch rack; will add data as I go along). If you think about my above calculation musings, because the 2011 Leaf weighs less than the 2019 model by about 173 lb / 78 kg, that should improve range, ever so slightly (see first calculations).

I'll note, to raise height (which might be unecessary), I'll go to 205 65 R16 at some point, maybe soon, as Costco has their Michelin sale this week: $436.92 before taxes / $460 otd / Michelin - Defender T + H).

In 10 years (2030) with a mileage loss of 8-10 miles or so per year, I'll still be around the 130 to 150 mark for distance; which isn't bad even if at that time when new car average batteries will probably give 750 miles +/- 150. Some battery loss estimates are at 4.2% per year.

For that rough-stimate calculation I'm using a blog:

"The Leaf has an average degradation rate of 4.2%, while the Model S is 2.3%. Good thermal management means better protection against degradation."

(source: https://www.geotab.com/blog/ev-battery-health/ )

So .042*230 (just under 10 miles a year: 10 years, 100 miles lost, or 130 miles +/- (shorter slower commutes probably in the 170s).

D) Recommendations:

Even though you're leaning to 40 kWh, I highly recommend that you think once more about going the 62 kWh for those reasons, and of course, am open to hearing counter thoughts to help me think this through. I'm pretty sure my installer will fly out to Texas — as he just did job in Atlanta even though he is based in LA County....).

He is not "Turn Key" per se though (yet), as he helped me source the battery, and then he came by to install it.


5/21 Update: Installer not reliable, doesn't return calls, has no voicemail nor physical address, you've been warned!

jbsocdelica said:

Even though you're leaning to 40kw, I highly recommend that you think once more about going the 62kw for those reasons, and of course, am open to hearing counter thoughts to help me think this through. My installer will fly out to Texas -- he just did job in Atlanta even though he is based in LA County....)

Click to expand...

This got my attention: you have someone that travel to a given location and perform upgrades...and still keep the cost <$10k turnkey?
Since you asked, there's a couple of things that are keeping me at 40 kWh:
1) I'll never change my tire size (messes with the speedometer, etc.)
2) I sometimes carry my drums around, so there's some extra weight there already...and
3) speak for yourself: I weigh half that!

jbsocdelica said:

Stanton; yes...though maybe think of the extra weight of roughly 250lb as an extra person you're driving with.

Click to expand...

I believe I will be OK (long term) if I can just maintain a real 100 mile range (summer/winter/whatever).

Stanton;

That's a really good point about changing tire size and affecting odometer accuracy. As of yet, I haven't changed the tires (as I still have about 10-15k left on my current Michelin Defenders); I notice if I'm gingerly going over this one really steep driveway (from flat to sharp) I can avoid the rub.

So, I calculated the Leaf 2011 with 64 kWh would come in at about 173lb less than then the Leaf 2019 Extended (see previous post).

With my weight (190 lb), spouse's 120 lb, and bikes (40 lb) + thule (35 lb), that's a cargo load of 385lb / 175 kg.

If you're coming in around 150lb (or under, being so sveltey!) and your kit is 100lb +/-; that's about 250 lb....

I wonder if your goal is to hold onto the car for a decade; and / or you have a different calculation in mind.

Sounds like if you got the 40kWh and your starting range was 170, then after ten years you would probably be about the 100 mile mark which could meet your goals.

If you kept your tires stock, remind me your concerns about the additional 22 kWh?

Also there maybe one more reason for 64 kWh upgrade that I just thought of. Most 62 kWh batteries will be less than 1 year old and have little mileage on them / down time. I wonder what the probabilities are of you getting a hold of a fresh 40 kWh battery?

Two observations to contribute:

• A larger tire diameter would very likely make the speedometer more accurate, not less. With stock tires, the speedometer is about 5% off (you're going slower than the speedometer reports)
  
  
• The discharge rate of each cell should be lower in a 62 kWh pack vs a 40 kWh pack, so that should mean less heat (assuming similar cell chemistry)
  
  
• On average, the depth of discharge should be lower with the larger pack. Although that's a secondary factor to pack degradation (with ambient temperature being the dominant one), it's still significant.