Heat pump water heaters

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Kieran973

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 19, 2018
Messages
170
Location
near NY, NY
Can anyone recommend a reliable heat pump water heater? They’re getting a lot of hype right now - some can supposedly use 1,000 - 2,000 kwh per year as opposed to a regular electric water heater which might use 4,000 - 5,000 kwh per year - but most also seem to be plagued with reliability issues: breaking after 1-3 years, etc. So does anyone on the forum have any experience with this?
 
I don't have any experience with Heat Pump water heaters but about a year ago I replaced our 10-year-old 50g natural gas water heater with a 29-gallon high-performance water heater and couldn't be happier. Because it only has 29 gallons sitting around they say it's 17% more efficient than a standard 50g model and because it has a 60k BTU burner(about twice a normal water heater) you can take a shower all day. The only downside is if you're filling a large tub with your faucet on full bore, you could run out of hot water.
They aren't cheap compared to a regular water heater but are cheaper than a heat pump model.
Time will tell on it's longevity compared to a regular water heater but as it has a 12-year warranty I'm hoping it will last longer than our 10-year warranty old model that lasted just about 10 years before it started leaking.
https://www.menards.com/main/plumbing/water-heaters/gas-water-heaters/richmond-reg-encore-reg-xr90-high-performance-29-gallon-12-year-natural-gas-water-heater/12g30-60/p-1444452201722-c-1541513694149.htm?tid=-931433815511202727&ipos=5
Oh as it's a power vent model you need to plug it in, otherwise it was a direct replacement for our 50g model and it only comes in natural gas and probably propane.
 
Best are Rheem and the relabeled brands they make. We've had ours a few years and it is wonderful. Have been following these for years, and no reliability issues that I am aware of to date.

https://www.rheem.com/products/residential/water-heating/hybrid/

Home Depot carries them. Recommend you go one volume size higher than what you have currently if you want to run it in heat pump mode ~100% of the time.
 
jjeff said:
I don't have any experience with Heat Pump water heaters but about a year ago I replaced our 10-year-old 50g natural gas water heater with a 29-gallon high-performance water heater and couldn't be happier. Because it only has 29 gallons sitting around they say it's 17% more efficient than a standard 50g model and because it has a 60k BTU burner(about twice a normal water heater) you can take a shower all day. The only downside is if you're filling a large tub with your faucet on full bore, you could run out of hot water.
They aren't cheap compared to a regular water heater but are cheaper than a heat pump model.
Time will tell on it's longevity compared to a regular water heater but as it has a 12-year warranty I'm hoping it will last longer than our 10-year warranty old model that lasted just about 10 years before it started leaking.
https://www.menards.com/main/plumbing/water-heaters/gas-water-heaters/richmond-reg-encore-reg-xr90-high-performance-29-gallon-12-year-natural-gas-water-heater/12g30-60/p-1444452201722-c-1541513694149.htm?tid=-931433815511202727&ipos=5
Oh as it's a power vent model you need to plug it in, otherwise it was a direct replacement for our 50g model and it only comes in natural gas and probably propane.
Click to expand...

Thanks, and interesting - I didn’t know these existed. I have a 50 gallon natural gas water heater right now. But we just had solar put on, and the array produces about 4,000 more kwh per year than we’ve been using, so I’m looking for ways to electrify more things in the house - the main upcoming projects will be switching the water heater to electric (either heat pump or regular) and the heat to electric minisplits.
 
iPlug said:
Best are Rheem and the relabeled brands they make. We've had ours a few years and it is wonderful. Have been following these for years, and no reliability issues that I am aware of to date.

https://www.rheem.com/products/residential/water-heating/hybrid/

Home Depot carries them. Recommend you go one volume size higher than what you have currently if you want to run it in heat pump mode ~100% of the time.
Click to expand...

Thanks, iPlug. I’m aware of and really like the Rheem models, and I was all set to have one installed this fall, but then I read some of the customer reviews on Home Depot’s webpage. There are a lot of angry customers giving 1 star reviews. The same goes for AO Smith heat pump water heaters at Lowe’s. The issue with both brands seems to be that things go wrong after 1-3 years with the anode rods, resistive heating elements, the heat pump itself, and/or the “smart” mode tech (which, when something goes wrong, can apparently shut the whole unit down). And even though some of these units are covered by 6-10 year warranties, this is for parts, not labor, so every time something breaks, you have to find and pay a local plumber to fix the problem (if you can even find someone who knows how to work on these). So don’t get me wrong - I think heat pump water heaters sound awesome in theory, and I’d really like to get one, but I don’t want to buy something that’s breaking all the time where suddenly my wife and 2 year old son have to take cold showers/baths for a week while Home Depot sends out replacement parts. To me, a reliable water heater is something that you can hook up and then never speak or think about again for 10 years. So I’ve been considering just getting a regular electric resistance water heater, despite the significant consumption penalty, if that means it will have Toyota Corolla level reliability for a decade.
 
Kieran973 said:
iPlug said:
Best are Rheem and the relabeled brands they make. We've had ours a few years and it is wonderful. Have been following these for years, and no reliability issues that I am aware of to date.

https://www.rheem.com/products/residential/water-heating/hybrid/

Home Depot carries them. Recommend you go one volume size higher than what you have currently if you want to run it in heat pump mode ~100% of the time.
Click to expand...

Thanks, iPlug. I’m aware of and really like the Rheem models, and I was all set to have one installed this fall, but then I read some of the customer reviews on Home Depot’s webpage. There are a lot of angry customers giving 1 star reviews. The same goes for AO Smith heat pump water heaters at Lowe’s. The issue with both brands seems to be that things go wrong after 1-3 years with the anode rods, resistive heating elements, the heat pump itself, and/or the “smart” mode tech (which, when something goes wrong, can apparently shut the whole unit down). And even though some of these units are covered by 6-10 year warranties, this is for parts, not labor, so every time something breaks, you have to find and pay a local plumber to fix the problem (if you can even find someone who knows how to work on these). So don’t get me wrong - I think heat pump water heaters sound awesome in theory, and I’d really like to get one, but I don’t want to buy something that’s breaking all the time where suddenly my wife and 2 year old son have to take cold showers/baths for a week while Home Depot sends out replacement parts. To me, a reliable water heater is something that you can hook up and then never speak or think about again for 10 years. So I’ve been considering just getting a regular electric resistance water heater, despite the significant consumption penalty, if that means it will have Toyota Corolla level reliability for a decade.
Click to expand...
The Rheem units have excellent reliability. For example we have this unit we got in 2017:

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Rheem-Performance-Platinum-65-Gal-10-Year-Hybrid-High-Efficiency-Smart-Tank-Electric-Water-Heater-XE65T10H45U0/312741511

This generation and later gets 5 stars by almost everyone and high sample size. Compare that to other Home Depot ratings. I have kept in touch with several others who also have Rheem heat pump water heaters of this generation and no hardware issues. I don't see better reliability for gas or electric and have been following this for years. You have to look at all the reviews, one will find poor reviews with everything, but sampling size and percentages of experiences are important here.
 
Out of curiosity I looked at the reviews. The negative ones, while far fewer than the positive ones, were pretty numerous and were almost all credible. A significant number of the positive reviews were written either shortly after purchase or well within the first year. This reminds me of the ground source heat pump systems back in the Nineties: glitchy and not necessary long-lived. And a 10 year warranty in which only the first year covers service labor?? No, thanks.
 
People come back to update as needed with all of their products. How does that compare statistically to electric resistance and NG heaters and their other products? Hard to buy the argument as others in my circle are also not seeing that. Come over to TMC and see if others are seeing the same.
 
Kieran973 said:
Thanks, iPlug. I’m aware of and really like the Rheem models, and I was all set to have one installed this fall, but then I read some of the customer reviews on Home Depot’s webpage. There are a lot of angry customers giving 1 star reviews. The same goes for AO Smith heat pump water heaters at Lowe’s. The issue with both brands seems to be that things go wrong after 1-3 years with the anode rods, resistive heating elements, the heat pump itself, and/or the “smart” mode tech (which, when something goes wrong, can apparently shut the whole unit down). And even though some of these units are covered by 6-10 year warranties, this is for parts, not labor, so every time something breaks, you have to find and pay a local plumber to fix the problem
Click to expand...
The anode rods and resistive heating elements in a hybrid heat pump water heater are no different than those in a regular, resistance heat only water heater.

Reading negative reviews has to be taken in context. First, people write when they are unhappy, and rarely to give praise. Second, a *lot* of these heaters are sold, so even a problem rate well below 1% will generate a generous complaint page. Third, at least a portion of the complaints are not the unit itself but either improper installation, operation, maintenance or use. The only hot water heat pump I am aware of that has sold in large quantities and is truly a bad piece of equipment is the GE HotSpring. I think it has been discontinued.
 
I own 3 of these water heaters in rental properties and have no complaints- I BELIEVE that some appliances made for the big box stores are not as well-made as the ones sold through plumbing suppliers- this is true of power tools and the same could easily be said of appliances. For example, I own a Rinnai combi hot water heater/ boiler which I bought form Home Depot and when a relay inside it gave out in less than a year, I called Rinnai for the replacement and they identified the unit as having come from HD- the relay listed is different than if the unit had not been a Home Depot model...... who knows but it should not have crapped out. But, back to the HW heaters: the 2 AO Smiths are loud and occasionally the renters complain, whereas the Rheem is quiet. I had to replace the electronic unit in a Smith but it was easy and was covered under warranty, PIA but no big deal. They all make plenty of water and we try to keep them set on Heat Pump only, occasionally the renters will boost them up to Hybrid when they have teenage kids...IMO the Rheem is a better tool.....
 
I think that the only way to sell a $2k water heater is with a warranty that includes at least 3 years of in-home service (5 would be better) - or to at least make that a low cost extra. If the tanks really are reliable then this wouldn't cost the manufacturer a lot. We went through two resistive water heaters quickly, but it was because the first installer refused to install the expansion tank I requested, and our somewhat high water pressure, combined with the heat expansion of the water, overstressed the physical tanks. With so many mediocre or worse installers out there, you need more protection than a one year inclusive warranty on an appliance that costs that much. Even if the payback estimate is spot on, it takes three years for the things to pay for their extra cost.

Dmacarthur slipped. Yes, the units sold through big box stores may well use cheaper components. They shouldn't be allowed to do that with other brands.
 
What gets me is why water heaters are still made out of glass lined steel. I had a Kenmore 'Survivor' electric water heater that I bought used for $100 back in the early 90's. It was still going strong when I sold the house 15 years later. It had a plastic tank and rigid foam insulation around it. Looked more or less like a regular water heater and took normal electric heating elements. Sears had a transferable lifetime warranty on them at some point but the last time I looked for them I didn't see them sold anymore. Maybe there isn't enough money to be made on them but I sure liked mine.
 
I had one. It died. It was nice while it lasted. It would help air condition the house in the summer.
I would like to replace it but I'm not spending 1 or 2 grand on it.
 
Oilpan4 said:
I had one. It died. It was nice while it lasted. It would help air condition the house in the summer.
I would like to replace it but I'm not spending 1 or 2 grand on it.
Click to expand...

It is true that heat pump water heaters basically steal heat from the surrounding air to warm the water, so, in northern climates a heated basement (which is underground and kept at Earth ambient temperature) works OK but in a kitchen or bathroom it is not a good solution (except in hot summer weather as Oilpan points out...). Curious why yours died Oilpan and why you did not fix it? the chip should have been warranteed...
 
Yeah when the heat needed to be on I turned off the heat pump and ran resistance heating or use the hot water plumbing I added to the coal furnace.
Need to add a thermostatic valve to the hot water heater cause after running the coal furnace all night that water gets freaking hot. I haven't popped the TP valve yet.
 
The reasons I think HPWHs are probably less reliable than regular electric and natural gas water heaters are 1.) I believe they’re more complex/elegant — there’s more opportunity for things to break and 2.) they’re relatively new terrain for companies like Rheem, AO Smith, etc who have been making water heaters for decades but have only been making HPWHs for what, less than 10 years?

That being said, the actual reliability stats are important. Can anyone suggest any?

And for those who have already installed: any advice you might offer? What did you pay for labor, what is your annual usage like, how happy are you with the performance of your unit? If I go through with this, I’m planning to size up (65 gallon HPWH for family of 3), to insist on a professional contractor model as opposed to a consumer model, and to try and get a better labor warranty than the one-year warranty that Leftie referred to (which seems standard on the box store consumer models).
 
I would install one to pump heat out of my garage (into the water) most of the year and turn on the resistance elements in the coldest months if I thought the unit would be reliable enough to be cost effective. Unless I find one that uses something better than a glass-lined steel tank, the tank will likely fail before I save enough electricity to justify the cost (based upon my off-peak power costs). The payback time could be less in areas with high power cost or combined with rooftop solar.
 
Using an expansion tank to take all excess pressure off the water heater's tank seems to work well to increase longevity of steel/glass tanks. It does have to be properly adjusted to work right.
 
Oilpan4 said:
Yeah when the heat needed to be on I turned off the heat pump and ran resistance heating or use the hot water plumbing I added to the coal furnace.
Need to add a thermostatic valve to the hot water heater cause after running the coal furnace all night that water gets freaking hot. I haven't popped the TP valve yet.
Click to expand...

We have a HW coil in the wood stove, which does occasionally pop the T/P valve so we added a copper pipe loop int he bedroom with a ball valve to allow small amounts of hot hot water to thermosiphon thru the loop- manual adjustment keeps water hot enough for all uses but not boiling..... plus, a little extra heat in the bedroom.
 
Kieran973 said:
The reasons I think HPWHs are probably less reliable than regular electric and natural gas water heaters are 1.) I believe they’re more complex/elegant — there’s more opportunity for things to break and 2.) they’re relatively new terrain for companies like Rheem, AO Smith, etc who have been making water heaters for decades but have only been making HPWHs for what, less than 10 years?

That being said, the actual reliability stats are important. Can anyone suggest any?

And for those who have already installed: any advice you might offer? What did you pay for labor, what is your annual usage like, how happy are you with the performance of your unit? If I go through with this, I’m planning to size up (65 gallon HPWH for family of 3), to insist on a professional contractor model as opposed to a consumer model, and to try and get a better labor warranty than the one-year warranty that Leftie referred to (which seems standard on the box store consumer models).
Click to expand...

Sorry, I have not kept track of actual savings, in the rentals that is hard to do anyway because of different habits among the tenants, but they DO consume less electricity and have, so far, been OK for maintenance. I install them myself, some states till allow this but not much longer I imagine.....
 

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