2020 SV Plus rapidgate advice?

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OP,
I'm sorry we cannot provide any hidden gems of advice and I do understand where you are coming from.

In the spirit of getting a better deal next time around, avoid KBB as a shopping tool. Truecar.com gives I think better market value data, e.g
https://www.truecar.com/prices-new/nissan/leaf-pricing/2020/?exteriorColorId=noPreference&incentiveIds=64465631&interiorColorId=1033888&optionPreference=popular_configuration&updateAttempts=2&userSelectedExteriorColor=false&userSelectedIncentives=false&userSelectedInteriorColor=false&userSelectedStyle=true&viprStyleId=68347&zipcode=87111

Although the best approach is to come to a car forum like this one. There is always a thread for people looking for the best deals going. While you may not get absolute best deal, you will be a much more informed consumer.

Or just get a Tesla ;)
And actually, now that I think about it ... since you paid ~ $40 pre tax, why didn't you buy a Tesla ? It sounds like the difference between ~ $32.5k after tax credit for the LEAF or ~ $38k for the Tesla Model 3 SR+
 
A portable A/C or heatpump (I have one of those but don't use it for this) could blow cool air under the car while garaged, but I don't see how that would get you a second fast QC in hot weather. It would maybe make the first one faster...
 
BrOtis said:
webeleafowners said:
For what it’s worth I think you have a great car, and that is coming from a Very happy Tesla model 3 owner. Leafs do what they do very well and the hatch back is great. Not to mention a very good looking car in my opinion. Miss my leaf. We retired and didn’t need two cars so we sold it.

But I’m sure a ton of people here want yo know. What kind of driving conditions are you using it under. You have so few miles but you need to fast charge. Are the only trips you make 500 miles? Most people rarely fast charge. I know Tesla owners who have never been to a fast charger in 3 years. Do you have charging at home?

Soooo curious on this. Please let us know.

Cheers.

Also, I will trade cars with you anytime you want lol.

Heh heh. I’ll have to pass on the trade.

So yah your trips to San Diego from Phoenix are literally the worst case scenario for you car and it explains a lot. We live in Palm Springs during the winter so know that stretch of road we’ll. I would do two things.

1. For the occasional San Diego trip just rent something. The rest of the time you’ll still enjoy a great car.

2. Don’t beat yourself up to much. We have all been there at some point in life. Those who haven’t will. Wait a couple or three years and trade up to something else. By then there will be more than just Tesla in the game although Tesla is a great way to go as well. In the mean time I can think of a lot worse cars to be in than a 2020 SV leaf.

And visit this board from time to time. Super nice bunch of people and very helpful. We don’t even own a leaf anymore but still come over once in a while to check out the news. Lots of knowledgeable folks here.

Cheers and stay safe.
 
A Facebook Leaf taxi driver in Vegas has tried putting a fan in under the rear hump lid to pump more air across the battery. Supposedly it gets you a few degrees off the battery every 15 minutes.

I have done 2 back to back DC charges on 90 degree weather, but it doesn't get to 120, like it does there.
 
This might be a dumb and obvious comment, but besides keeping and enjoying your leaf, and then just renting for a few trips per year to San Diego... what about finding a relative or friend or coworker and swapping vehicles for those trips? If you are comfortable with that, I suspect a coworker or friend will really enjoy driving it for a few days while you are out of town.
 
I honestly would not try to take a LEAF on long drives, let alone in hot weather.

But do be aware that heat discharge into the battery increases quadratically with car speed and headwind. The slower you drive, the slower the battery will overheat. The same holds true for charge rate.

So maybe the LEAF can be gamed a little doing the following:
Charge to full the day before your trip, to give the battery a chance to reach ambient
Drive 60 mph
Hopefully DCFC at a a decent rate to to full battery
Drive 70 mph
Charge at L2 speeds
Drive 70 mph to your destination
 
BrOtis said:
I recently purchased a 2020 Nissan Leaf SV plus and quickly realized the mistake I had made. I live in Arizona and at the time of purchase I had no idea what passive cooling was and the sales person certainly had no clue about anything involving the car. I knew more than he did.

Had I realized that the battery would suffer such harsh throttling about 90% of the year in Arizona due to the heat, I’d have bought an EV with an active cooling system. I suppose I’m fault here for not doing the proper amount of research but it feels like I got taken for a fool. Please don’t make me feel anymore stupid than I already do.

I could have gotten myself a model 3 for what I paid. And to make matters worse, my cars value somehow depreciated almost 25k in less than 5 months. It has less than 6k miles on it and is in immaculate condition. I know depreciation happens but more than half of what was financed in less than half a year?! How is this legal? That was a real kick In the pants. So I can’t get rid of the car because I’m not rich and I can’t afford to just take on 20k or more in negative equity.

At this point I’m desperate for some sort of help. I think Nissan should not be allowed to sell this car in this state honestly. Does anyone know of anything that will help me?

I tried going to Nissan and they basically told me sorry but you’re out of luck. Apparently the firmware update that help this issue isn’t available for the 2020 model for some unknown reason.

Is there anything I can do to help this? Could I buy a different battery pack with active cooling? Could I pay some custom EV shop to build something? I love the car other than the rapidgate issue. Please don’t respond with snarky comments about how I need to get a different car. I would if I could.

How can we take this post seriously when you claim this?

my cars value somehow depreciated almost 25k in less than 5 months

how about some numbers so "we" can decide for ourselves?

As far as selling in AZ, we have someone with a Plus and he seems to be doing fine living in Phoenix.
 
BrOtis said:
webeleafowners said:
For what it’s worth I think you have a great car, and that is coming from a Very happy Tesla model 3 owner. Leafs do what they do very well and the hatch back is great. Not to mention a very good looking car in my opinion. Miss my leaf. We retired and didn’t need two cars so we sold it.

But I’m sure a ton of people here want yo know. What kind of driving conditions are you using it under. You have so few miles but you need to fast charge. Are the only trips you make 500 miles? Most people rarely fast charge. I know Tesla owners who have never been to a fast charger in 3 years. Do you have charging at home?

Soooo curious on this. Please let us know.

Cheers.

It’s only when I have I charge more than once. Second fast charge is instantly slower than the first. Taking about 2 hours. 3 is slower than a level 2 charger. I’ve tried going from Phoenix to San Diego which took 14 hours. A 5 hour trip in a gas car. I also tried Phoenix to LA with similar results. I tried both in the best of the summer and about a month ago. For San Diego to compare how it did with cooler temps and instead of taking 14 hours it took just under 13. Which is still pretty unacceptable to me. Maybe this is normal for EVs? I’m just a regular person who decided to try and be more Conscious about my car on foot print. And now I feel as though I was prayed on by my ignorance. I realize this is probably just how it works. But it is a hard pill to swallow when you thought the technology was something it isn’t. And your stuck with an insane amount of debt that the car isn’t worth.


Sounds more like not having the basic understanding of how charging works. DK what the spread of chargers is but you need to charge the bottom 2/3rds of the pack on road trips. Will cut charging time significantly and yeah, involves more stops but I think you will find it more tolerable.

15 minutes of planning will save you hours
 
SageBrush said:
I honestly would not try to take a LEAF on long drives, let alone in hot weather.

But do be aware that heat discharge into the battery increases quadratically with car speed and headwind. The slower you drive, the slower the battery will overheat. The same holds true for charge rate.

Sage will give the worst case, of course. In cool/cold weather, this isn't an issue.

The slower you drive the less heating, and the lower the fraction of time spent charging. The battery will cool between charges.

If you drive very fast, you will overheat the battery in all but cold conditions.

If it is very hot, the battery will overheat on long trips.

Hot conditions can't be avoided, usually. Speed needs to match traffic speed. So if this corner of conditions is common, you need a different car.

I've done a day trip with 6 QC sessions. Weather was about 3 C.
 
DaveinOlyWA said:
how about some numbers so "we" can decide for ourselves?

As far as selling in AZ, we have someone with a Plus and he seems to be doing fine living in Phoenix.
OP said he paid $46k, the financed amount. He wasn't able to claim the full $7,500 tax credit. Sounds like he overpaid for the car or got a really bad interest rate and didn't do his research before buying a Leaf over a Tesla.
 
Triggerhappy007 said:
DaveinOlyWA said:
how about some numbers so "we" can decide for ourselves?

As far as selling in AZ, we have someone with a Plus and he seems to be doing fine living in Phoenix.
OP said he paid $46k, the financed amount. He wasn't able to claim the full $7,500 tax credit. Sounds like he overpaid for the car or got a really bad interest rate and didn't do his research before buying a Leaf over a Tesla.

I also wonder if some people don't actually use the tax credit to offset the cost of the car.

I knew how much my tax credits and rebates were going to be, so I borrowed that much from myself and used it as the down payment, effectively lowering the cost of the car. I wouldn't be surprised if a few people end up financing the full cost and when they do get the tax credit, spend it on other things. They are welcome to do that, but the resale value of these have (I think) priced in the tax credits. So if you do not use the tax credit to lower the cost of the car, indeed you could end up VERY upside down in your loan.
 
Triggerhappy007 said:
DaveinOlyWA said:
how about some numbers so "we" can decide for ourselves?

As far as selling in AZ, we have someone with a Plus and he seems to be doing fine living in Phoenix.
OP said he paid $46k, the financed amount. He wasn't able to claim the full $7,500 tax credit. Sounds like he overpaid for the car or got a really bad interest rate and didn't do his research before buying a Leaf over a Tesla.

Ok, so the only one to pay MSRP for a LEAF in the past 7 years? Yeah, anything is possible. Interesting the car after 5 months is only worth what? 20, $21K?

Well, at that price, at least he won't have a problem selling it...
 
BrOtis said:
GerryAZ said:
BrOtis said:
I recently purchased a 2020 Nissan Leaf SV plus and quickly realized the mistake I had made. I live in Arizona and at the time of purchase I had no idea what passive cooling was and the sales person certainly had no clue about anything involving the car. I knew more than he did.

Had I realized that the battery would suffer such harsh throttling about 90% of the year in Arizona due to the heat, I’d have bought an EV with an active cooling system. I suppose I’m fault here for not doing the proper amount of research but it feels like I got taken for a fool. Please don’t make me feel anymore stupid than I already do.

I could have gotten myself a model 3 for what I paid. And to make matters worse, my cars value somehow depreciated almost 25k in less than 5 months. It has less than 6k miles on it and is in immaculate condition. I know depreciation happens but more than half of what was financed in less than half a year?! How is this legal? That was a real kick In the pants. So I can’t get rid of the car because I’m not rich and I can’t afford to just take on 20k or more in negative equity.

At this point I’m desperate for some sort of help. I think Nissan should not be allowed to sell this car in this state honestly. Does anyone know of anything that will help me?

I tried going to Nissan and they basically told me sorry but you’re out of luck. Apparently the firmware update that help this issue isn’t available for the 2020 model for some unknown reason.

Is there anything I can do to help this? Could I buy a different battery pack with active cooling? Could I pay some custom EV shop to build something? I love the car other than the rapidgate issue. Please don’t respond with snarky comments about how I need to get a different car. I would if I could.
Please explain your real issue with "rapid gate". With 6k miles in 5 months, your monthly mileage is less than mine and I have no issue charging my 2019 and had no issue charging my previous LEAFs. My car has only 9 DCQCs in almost 25k miles because it is much cheaper to charge at home. If you cannot charge at home and are dependent upon DCQC, then a Tesla would have been a better choice with their proprietary charging network. I used a DCQC on Sunday and there was no charge throttling issue--charge rate started at 43 kW, increased to 45 kW, and tapered to 35 kW just before the EVgo charger stopped after 46 minutes (I wish they would keep charging instead of automatically stopping after either 30 or 45 minutes). The SOC (state of charge) was 21% before charging and 81% after the EVgo charger stopped. During previous DCQC sessions I have seen EVgo chargers cut back to 18 kW after 15 minutes (probably to avoid excessive 15-minute power demand charges which are triggered above 20 kW), but that is not the fault of the car.

I am not sure how you are determining depreciation, but EV's that qualify for the Federal $7,500 tax credit do take a large depreciation hit as soon as you drive off the lot because a new one qualifies for the credit while a used one does not even if the original purchaser is not able to use the credit.

There are no alternative battery packs available (plus you would lose the Nissan 8-year, 100,000-mile battery warranty, 5-year, 60,000-mile EV system and powertrain warranty, and 3-year, 36,000-mile bumper-to-bumper warranty if you modify the car) and the costs for modifications, if available, would exceed the losses you would incur by just selling the car.

Personally, I am glad that Nissan sells EV's in Arizona because the LEAF fits my daily driver needs very well.


So daily use isn’t an issue. But I have friends that I would like to visit in San Diego. And in Vegas. I was assured this wouldn’t be an issue with the Leaf and to be fair, I can drive there it just takes quadruple the amount of time I thought it would. I tried to go from Phoenix to San Diego in it twice, once when it was super hot out and once recently. I assumed the first time I went it took so long due to the heat outside. It took 14 hours. The second time I thought I wouldn’t have this issue. Still took me 12 and half hours. And I never went over 65 mph. Kept on eco too. And going to Vegas isn’t possible at all. If it is then I’m not aware of how. I’m angry with myself for making the mistake of not fully understanding this car before buying. That might have come off in my tone and that’s my bad for sure.

When I purchased the car, KBB said what I was paying for a new leaf was accurate. But now, if I check KBB it says it’s only worth have of what I paid. After taxes and fees it came out to right at 46k amount financed. They offered me 18k for it. Even if you account for the 7500 dollar tax credit, which makes no sense to me because you can’t even claim all of it if you don’t have enough liability, that’s still about 20k of upside negative equity. Don’t get wrong I know that a cars value depreciates the moment you drive it off the lot. I’ve bought several new cars and that’s usually about a 5k depreciation within the first year. That’s about average according to every person I know. And even the highest I’ve seen was 10k in a year. 20 in 5 months? Come on. You have to admit that’s not normal.
As a fellow AZ Leaf Plus owner, I will reply to your specific issues as well as some of the comments from others:

Don't beat yourself up over paying close to MSRP--there are not a lot of LEAF Plus models on dealer lots in AZ so there is not as much incentive for dealers to negotiate compared to other regions where there is much more competition. When I purchased mine in 2019, I had to order it to get the options I wanted. My dealer's search came up with 3 in the western USA which were equipped the way I wanted so I knew it would be difficult to negotiate significant savings below MSRP. I was able to negotiate some discount since I was purchasing my third LEAF from the same dealer and salesman. I also took advantage of Nissan incentives for down payment and low interest financing which combined with the $7,500 tax credit and good trade-in allowance to make the transaction reasonable. If one considers "average" depreciation for cars to be $5,000 in the first year, then LEAF depreciation would be $5,000 (average new car depreciation) + $7,500 (Federal tax credit) = $12,500 (total expected first year depreciation). Your actual depreciation will probably not be much different after a full year or 18 months as you are quoting for 6 months. The market considers the full $7,500 tax credit in used car pricing whether or not the original owner was able to take full advantage of that credit.

I am sorry your dealer misled you regarding long trips. I know the salesman and dealer I purchased all three of my LEAFs from would not recommend frequent trips to San Diego or Las Vegas (salesman drove a 2011 LEAF as personal vehicle when they first became available). As others have already suggested, enjoy your car for local driving and rent or borrow a suitable vehicle for occasional out of town trips. I had a trip planned to Las Vegas in January 2020 and my SUV was temporarily out of service. I considered taking my motorcycle, but was not comfortable with the weather forecast (rain and cold OK--possible snow not acceptable) so I rented a car for the weekend. It would be possible to drive a 62 kWh LEAF to Las Vegas by leaving the north side of Phoenix with a full charge and going through Flagstaff--stopping at every DCQC along I-17 and I-40 would get you to Kingman. There is at least one public L2 charging station in Kingman and a few hours there would yield enough charge to make it to the next DCQC in Henderson. The route through Flagstaff is over 100 miles further than the most direct route (US 93 through Wickenburg) and the limited number of charging stations means one could be stranded or delayed if a charging station was out of service so it would only be feasible if there were a need to get the car up there for an extended stay. Of course, the trip would be easy with a Tesla because there is a proprietary super charger station in Kingman.

Others have claimed that you can minimize battery heating by driving slower. My experience is that normal highway speed driving (say 75 mi/hr) does not produce significantly more heat than slow speeds because there is good air flow around the battery at highway speeds. I see battery temperatures increase when I slow down and drive in city stop/go traffic after highway driving because there is less air flow and more heat absorbed from the hot pavement at slow speeds. Since slower driving is more efficient due to less aerodynamic drag, lower average speeds will extend range and reduce charging times a little on long trips so the recommendations to drive slower do have some merit.

It is too soon to know how much long-term battery deterioration to expect in our climate, but my car has been doing OK. There are several ways to measure/express loss of battery capacity and my capacity loss has been minimal after 25k miles and 17 months of use no matter how it is measured. My battery still has about 95% of its original capacity in spite of the extremely hot summer last year.
 
BrOtis said:
webeleafowners said:
For what it’s worth I think you have a great car, and that is coming from a Very happy Tesla model 3 owner. Leafs do what they do very well and the hatch back is great. Not to mention a very good looking car in my opinion. Miss my leaf. We retired and didn’t need two cars so we sold it.

But I’m sure a ton of people here want yo know. What kind of driving conditions are you using it under. You have so few miles but you need to fast charge. Are the only trips you make 500 miles? Most people rarely fast charge. I know Tesla owners who have never been to a fast charger in 3 years. Do you have charging at home?

Soooo curious on this. Please let us know.

Cheers.

It’s only when I have I charge more than once. Second fast charge is instantly slower than the first. Taking about 2 hours. 3 is slower than a level 2 charger. I’ve tried going from Phoenix to San Diego which took 14 hours. A 5 hour trip in a gas car. I also tried Phoenix to LA with similar results. I tried both in the best of the summer and about a month ago. For San Diego to compare how it did with cooler temps and instead of taking 14 hours it took just under 13. Which is still pretty unacceptable to me. Maybe this is normal for EVs? I’m just a regular person who decided to try and be more Conscious about my car on foot print. And now I feel as though I was prayed on by my ignorance. I realize this is probably just how it works. But it is a hard pill to swallow when you thought the technology was something it isn’t. And your stuck with an insane amount of debt that the car isn’t worth.

I hear you, man. I test drove a new Leaf SV Plus over the past summer and was really close to pulling the trigger... they let me test drive it for 24 hours and returned it the next day. I took it on an extended drive on the freeway (150 miles) to get a feel for the propilot system. The next day I drove it to the Mall to try a DC fast charge to see how that works on the new Leaf.

Well... it was 95F out that day and probably 120 in the parking lot. The car overheated in less than 5 minutes of charging. So I returned the damn thing and bought a used Bolt, which also has its own share of issues with the battery, although it doesn't overheat (just burns the car to the ground and they nerfed its capacity).

I honestly would look into using the lemon laws in your state to return the car. It clearly doesn't meet your needs for long road trips. I have no idea if an attorney would help or not, but it may be worth looking into.
 
Google maps says Phoenix to San Diego is about 350 miles. Nissan leaf range is about 230 miles. lets say you only get 170 due to elevation changes etc. it would seem you could do that with either one charge stop if you really stretched it out or 2 if you split it. I would split it in 2 and not run the battery full or empty any where. it seems like total charge time would be on the order of 2 hours. maybe 3 with severe rapidgating. if it took 9 charging hours, you used L2. 9 hours * 6 kw = 56 kwh. so approx enough to pull this trip off one way. you need to find a chademo charger
 
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