The 62kWh Battery Topic

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DougWantsALeaf said:
the Video is fairly complimentary to the Leaf.
Click to expand...
LOL !!

Let me paraphrase for you:
Even at 40 kW and in the the.Artic.Circle in the winter, the LEAF overheats
One can manage OK if charging stops include sitting down to eat a reindeer.
 
I will agree that the Leaf is not a Tesla, and Bjorn is VERY complimentary of the Tesla trip he took, but the Leaf is perfect for my needs and I am wagering that its lifetime costs will be less than a Teslas, given my use and needs.
 
DaveinOlyWA said:
DougWantsALeaf said:
One other point of note. In Bjorn's video look at the temperature spread between the temp sensors. 15+C, which is huge. I have never seen anything close to that on my car post DC sessions. Its the front cells getting quickly chilled and the underseat cells staying toasty warm.

Someone needs to find a way to get just a little airflow up there.
Click to expand...

Amazing what a bit of airflow can do. The Soul EV vents passenger air to the battery pack with assist of a fan and it makes a huge difference in batt temps. Seems like an easy cheap fix?...
Click to expand...

The cells are packed so tight...I have a feeling the outer cells might be helped and cooled by a fan...but the ones in the middle of the stack would still suffer.

After 10 months and almost 9,000 miles ...no heat issues here...but I only DC fast charged once...just to try i out. I've been all L2 keeping it between 20%-80% charge...most of the time between 30%and 70%....about every month or so 100% then immediate long trip.

My car is coming up on 2 years from the build date...I'll check Leaf spy at the end of the month and report.
 
dmacarthur said:
I will agree that the Leaf is not a Tesla, and Bjorn is VERY complimentary of the Tesla trip he took, but the Leaf is perfect for my needs and I am wagering that its lifetime costs will be less than a Teslas, given my use and needs.
Click to expand...
I don't doubt for a moment that a new LEAF can be good value given the right context, but that context is pretty narrow:

1. LEAF bought on the cheap
2. Another ICE is not owned to cover the LEAFs limitations
3. In general, LEAF not placed in warm+ climate
4. Consumer demands of the LEAF does not take a jump up
5. No reliance on FC network
6. Consumer bought enough battery reserve to cover 2 sigma degradation for 10 years
7. Clear intent to keep the LEAF until EOL to avoid depreciation

OK ... until we remember what fraction of the buying population do not have a clue what most of the above is about and +/- decide based on a low monthly payment and then rationalize a poor choice as they learn the LEAFs limits and issues.

-----

As an aside, I personally find (6) to be easier said than to live with. While our LEAF meets the criterion, I still find it unsettling to watch the battery degrade by the month. Just the fact that I (and others here) check our batteries so often says something quite negative about the LEAF. In a way, it is an admission of doubt. And on some days, I cannot help but wonder if the entire exercise does not have a taint of masochism to it. After all, when it comes down to it, a car is an appliance and not a lifestyle. Starting every month off with a lash of bad news cannot be good for the soul.
 
As an aside, I personally find (6) to be easier said than to live with. While our LEAF meets the criterion, I still find it unsettling to watch the battery degrade by the month. Just the fact that I (and others here) check our batteries so often says something quite negative about the LEAF. In a way, it is an admission of doubt. And on some days, I cannot help but wonder if the entire exercise does not have a taint of masochism to it. After all, when it comes down to it, a car is an appliance and not a lifestyle. Starting every month off with a lash of bad news cannot be good for the soul.
[/quote]

...why I don't look at battery health on LeafSpy! the national news has been bad enough to satisfy my innate masochistic tendency....... I will probably start to watch more when a) the national and international news gets better, and b) when the 62 kw battery pack starts to degrade such that it is noticeable.
 
dmacarthur said:
PS to prove what a klutz I am, I still can not figure out how to quote only a portion of a previous message......
Click to expand...
If you just want text in quotes, follow Lefty's advice.
If you want to attribute the quote (Lefty said ..), you have to leave the attribution intact. I learned by editing my own posts that had attributions from others since the HTML is intact and can be studied.

----
You only have to remember that quotes are in pairs: an open quote tag (with or without attribution)
Code: 
 [quote]
always ends with a closing quote tag
Code: 
 [/quote]



Lefty's advice results in this:
Code: 
[quote]
text
[/quote]

Quoted text with attribution has this pattern:
Code: 
[quote=" <name>"]
text
[/quote]


Pretty easy to follow until you see nested quotes because the forum software does not know how to indent code to help identify the pairs. Imagine a quoted text, inside someone else's quoted text, inside someone elses quoted text. There will be three pairs of quote tags. The first and last tags are a pair, the second and second to last tags are a pair, and the middle tags are a pair.

When you respond to a post, your text should not be inside any quote tags. Sometimes the forum software tries to be helpful (I think when an unbalanced tag is present) by inserting a closing quote tag at the end of the post that includes your new text. That tag has to be deleted, and the unbalanced tag either deleted or be given its partner in the right place. You always have the choice to either click an editing button for tags or just write them yourself.
 
Sage

While I agree with your Leaf value statements in terms of use case (mainly sub 200 mile journeys, limited DC needs, highly discounted purchase+fed credit, no additional ICE needs, etc..) as the sweet spot for the Leaf Plus, I continue to see evidence showing the M3 battery degradation profiles not really being any different then the Leaf Plus (its hard to find enough data points for Niro/Kona and Bolt is now kind of forfeit with the software limitation). Teslafi, seems to confirm that as well.

You can find dozens in the Tesla forums, but here is one youtuber I like because of his earnest approach to his tests.
https://youtu.be/7XdyOxB9n8c

It feels like/appears the late 2019 M3 and later saw a widening of battery suppliers and quality of the smaller packs in terms of degradation curves has some increasing variation...or so it appears.

So I hope your M3 has capacity for a 2 sigma loss in range/capacity and still stay within your needs. (in jest)
 
DougWantsALeaf said:
So I hope your M3 has capacity for a 2 sigma loss in range/capacity and still stay within your needs.
Click to expand...
I hope so too.

Figuring out degradation in my car is something of an assumptions game because Tesla sandbagged the range when the car was first released. EPA *testing* (not the window sticker) reported 323 miles and my car now reports in the 314 - 317 range, so perhaps ~ 2% - 2.5% degradation in 2.5 years although in the last year the range has not decreased.

As for the anecdotes you love to find, we have discussed them before. Some charging routines lead to poor BMS calibration. There is little reason to think the outliers are anything but artefacts.

So I'm pretty confident in saying that the 2 sigma annual degradation is no more than 2% a year in the Model 3, and my car is fairing much better -- perhaps 0.5% a year after the first year. I'll have more confidence in my car's degradation rate in a couple of years ... if I continue to monitor. If there is no degradation next year either I'll just call it an issue for the history books and check the range if I ever decide to sell the car.

I've thought more than once about swapping the car for a 400 mile Model Y when that car comes out and continuing to buy used 1/2 cars for my wife since that easily covers her use case, but I like my car too much to be practical about it. I think it more likely that I'll replace 'her' LEAF with a future Model Y and keep the Model 3 as 'my' car.
 
DougWantsALeaf said:
Sage

While I agree with your Leaf value statements in terms of use case (mainly sub 200 mile journeys, limited DC needs, highly discounted purchase+fed credit, no additional ICE needs, etc..) as the sweet spot for the Leaf Plus, I continue to see evidence showing the M3 battery degradation profiles not really being any different then the Leaf Plus (its hard to find enough data points for Niro/Kona and Bolt is now kind of forfeit with the software limitation). Teslafi, seems to confirm that as well.

You can find dozens in the Tesla forums, but here is one youtuber I like because of his earnest approach to his tests.
https://youtu.be/7XdyOxB9n8c

It feels like/appears the late 2019 M3 and later saw a widening of battery suppliers and quality of the smaller packs in terms of degradation curves has some increasing variation...or so it appears.

So I hope your M3 has capacity for a 2 sigma loss in range/capacity and still stay within your needs. (in jest)
Click to expand...

I am gathering data to (throwing out almost as much as I gather...) and from what I can tell, both follow the same patterns but the LEAF has roughly 33 to 75% more degradation during its break in period lasting 12-18 months. After that, they appear to be the same losing ~ 1% a year.
 
I didn't know Audi was the leading EV brand in Norway, or that they had a sense of humor :mrgreen:

https://youtu.be/otsK2M4tQI0
 
Ok, my SV+ (may 2019 build) just finished its quarterly, and in spite of our single digit weather, the adjustment went UP. .07-.08% (to 93.36% SoH). First cold weather increase. I did charge to 100% 1 tume during the quarter. No clue whether that helped at all or not. I do DC charge this car maybe once a week.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1mjGg2SdFQzo3_GzA6YY_Ob1MrfkX9hidN2caTR92xAA/edit?usp=drivesdk
 
DougWantsALeaf said:
Ok, my SV+ (may 2019 build) just finished its quarterly, and in spite of our single digit weather, the adjustment went UP. .07-.08% (to 93.36% SoH). First cold weather increase. I did charge to 100% 1 tume during the quarter. No clue whether that helped at all or not. I do DC charge this car maybe once a week.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1mjGg2SdFQzo3_GzA6YY_Ob1MrfkX9hidN2caTR92xAA/edit?usp=drivesdk
Click to expand...

Nice. What was the change from quarter to quarter (day after previous adjustment to day after this adjustment)
 
SV+ (build may 19, buy Jun 19)
-i missed the first one, but guessing about 1.5%
97.1 95.72 (-1.38%) Feb 29
95.63 94.66 (-.97%) May 20
94.29 94.99 (.7%) Aug 20
94.72 93.36 (-1.36%) Nov 20 (50F)
93.29 93.36 (.07%) Feb 21 (44F)

S+ (build Sep 19, buy June 20)
97.94 98.11 (.17%) Sep 20
97.95 95.4. (-2.55% adjusted over a week) Dec 20
 
DougWantsALeaf said:
SV+ (build may 19, buy Jun 19)
-i missed the first one, but guessing about 1.5%
97.1 95.72 (-1.38%) Feb 29
95.63 94.66 (-.97%) May 20
94.29 94.99 (.7%) Aug 20
94.72 93.36 (-1.36%) Nov 20 (50F)
93.29 93.36 (.07%) Feb 21 (44F)

S+ (build Sep 19, buy June 20)
97.94 98.11 (.17%) Sep 20
97.95 95.4. (-2.55% adjusted over a week) Dec 20
Click to expand...

So I did a winter range test last year (SOH 99.48%) and got 217 miles with 211 actually driven. temps 39-48º Single drive, rain during 85% of it (only place it didn't rain was near home)

So did another range trip last week. Multiple days; one of 88 miles, one of 65 miles. Both of those days were very close to last years trip. Speed maybe slightly lower (miles/kwh were the same) the rest was work commute where it was dry but cold (mid to low 30's in the morning, high 30's at night) but speeds much higher, miles/kwh 3.6, 3.7, 3.9.

range 206 miles, actually drove 191. So still over 200 miles in Winter. An easy summer range calculation adds .5 to .7 miles/kwh or 235 to 248 miles per charge.

Weather has derailed plans for a trip that would have been 150 miles in one shot which probably gives a clearer picture but this only means 3 days to explore just how well the LEAF does in snow with a little bit of help.
 

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