Do 2016 SV models sold in the US have battery heaters?

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RayvdZaag

New member
Joined
Nov 29, 2019
Messages
3
Hi, everyone.
My first post.
We have a 2016 SV that we purchased fall 2019 in B.C. and had shipped to us in Winnipeg. It was imported by a dealer in B.C. from the U.S. (California).
Last winter was not particularly cold (no real cold snaps) and we only had a 120v slow charger, and never had any trouble with the car not 'starting' in cold weather. This summer, we installed a level 2 charger, which we like because it doesn't take 16 hours to charge anymore.
But we just had a very cold snap here (-35C over several nights). The manual says to always plug in the car when the ambient temp is below -17C, but I forgot to do that the first cold night. In the morning, it wouldn't go. Display indicated a cold battery (no bars on the battery temp gauge), range showed --- instead of numbers, and it would not enter R or D.)
So I plugged in the Level 2 charger that day (even though the battery was still almost fully charged), and after several hours charging, still no go.
My son is a Red Seal (certified) mechanic at one of the local Nissan dealers, though they were not 'certified' to carry the LEAF until last year, and he has only had training on the 2nd generation.
We tested the voltage on the 12v battery, which was low, so we thought that might be preventing the electronics from turning on the battery heater. With a regular battery charger connected to the 12v battery, we eventually could get the car to go.
We charged the 12v battery, and left the Level 2 charger plugged in all night, but the next morning it again was no go.
Again, after running the 12v battery charger on hi for about 1 hour, I managed to get it to 'shift' to D.
My son checked the VIN, and looked up the Nissan service manual, and it appears that the US and Canadian 30kw (SV and SL) models differ in whether they have a battery heater. This is only for 2016, I think. When he used the diagnostic computer to call for codes (DTCs) for the heater relay, the relay appeared not to be present. (Not sure I'm explaining that exactly right.)
So we are wondering if using only the Level 1 (120v) charger last winter meant the battery was almost always being charged (and so warmed), while now using the Level 2 (240v) charger means the battery gets finished charging and then gets cold.
(I should note the car came with a 2017 Owners Manual, which states as others have noted on these forums that the battery heater will turn on when the temp is below -17c, and even use its own power to keep 'warm' when not plugged in and the temp drops below -17c). Not sure what the 2016 Manual states.)
Sorry for the long post, but to summarize, several questions:
- anyone else with experience with a weak 12v battery causing charging/cold Li-ion battery problems?
- anyone else wondering (based on experience) about no battery heater in 2016 30kw models from the US?
- anyone have experience possibly rigging a battery warmer (using pipe tracing heater tape between the battery and the undertray?
Thanks
Ray vdZaag
 
If they stopped including battery warmers in US Leafs after 2011, it's news to me. They do switch off at below 30% charge, though. It's also possible that you froze your 12 volt battery, and when you thought it was charged it was just showing a 'surface charge' with no real amperage available.

* What was the state of charge (SOC) when you parked the car?

* Do you ever leave the car plugged in after charging ends?

My own experience with frigid weather is that the battery warmer only runs in sustained temps of below 10F, and usually not all the time. Anyway, it will be interesting to see if you have a defective battery warmer, or...none at all.
 
I just read through the service manual for 2016 and did not see any indication that USA cars lack the battery heater system or that there are heater differences between 24 and 30 kWh batteries. Just to be clear, most 2011's do not have the cold weather package (and thus no battery heater system). 2012 and later cars should have battery heaters (at least those with 24 kWh batteries). The owner manual for my 2019 implies that a different system is used to protect the 62 kWh battery from freezing, but the 40 kWh battery has the conventional resistance heaters. I have been unable to confirm this difference by reading the service manual, but am not worried about needing battery heat where I live.

The 2016 service manual does say that battery heaters will not turn on if the car is not plugged in and the SOC is below 30%. It also states that battery temperature drops to -20 degrees C (-4 F) before heaters turn on and that heaters turn off at -10 degrees C +14 F).
 
Thanks for the responses.
- The Li-ion battery was sufficiently charged (about 90km range, if I recall) when initially parked overnight on the cold night, so that I didn't think I needed to plug it in to charge for the next day. And after we finally got it going, it had close to a full charge.
- Yes we normally leave it plugged in (charging on the Level 2 charger) until the next morning, even if it has reached full charge and the 3 blue lights on the dash stop flashing.
- As I stated, the 12v battery was weak, and it may be that it froze and so that may be the source of the problem. But I have never seen the third blue light flashing, as the manual indicates it should, when the 12v battery is being charged by the Li-ion battery.
We have now replaced the 12v battery, and are using the 120v Level 1 charger overnight. This means the Li-ion battery is not even fully charged by morning, but also that the Li-ion battery temp gauge still shows 2 bars in the morning (presumably due to the heating caused by the charging.)
I have ordered a bluetooth OBDII reader and downloaded the Leafspy app, so that I can monitor battery temps at home. Some evening when the temp is just around -20C, I'll use the Level 2 charger again and see if the battery maintains its temp once the Li-ion battery is charged. (Right now we are in a week-long cold snap due to a polar vortex over the Prairies, with nighttime temps of -35C.)
Re: whether US models have an installed battery warmer, I've attached two images, taken from the factory service manual for the 2016 Leaf,. The first shows a table which seems to clearly indicate that US models don't have a battery warmer. The second is simply a chart on how to decode the VIN as to whether it is a US, Canadian or Mexico model (key digit is digit 12). (As I mentioned in my first post, our Leaf was imported to Canada from the US and has the corresponding U - and not N - in position 12).
0plYQ_IJ0ojX0vyIcdFSwNDbw

0Bmcrr9Zm_kQMpFQN40DVjOVg

Any further thoughts, questions or additional information regarding this issue of battery warmers in US models would be appreciated.
Ray vdZ
 
I'm pretty sure that all the battery swappers, cell removers, etc that have looked inside Leaf batteries have said that 2012+ Leafs have battery warmers in them. Not sure about the 62kWh pack since I haven't seen any tear downs of those but all 24kWh and 30kWh packs I have read about mentioned the battery heaters. It may not be listed as an option in any literature since it is standard on all packs now. What specifically did you read that makes you think there are no heaters in the packs now?

I'd also say it is general consensus that - at least on some model years - leaving the EVSE plugged in when the car is not charging can drain the 12V battery. A low 12V supply voltage can cause all sorts of issues since the car's control electronics run off that battery and they seem to be susceptible to misfunction when the 12V supply voltage drops too low.
 
Sorry, I inserted the url from iCloud between the
symbols.
I'll use the URL symbol.
https://share.icloud.com/photos/0Qw9b4TF3n4TJYu-Hey7p9VyQ
https://share.icloud.com/photos/0kbhQSirfuc8XMqK-QF7OnxnQ
Goldbrick, we certainly had assumed that our Leaf had a battery warmer. But the factory service manual table (image linked now, hopefully) makes us wonder. Regarding keeping the EVSE plugged in, the owner's manuals states that the car should be plugged in at all times when the temp goes below -17C. I guess that is our confusion - it seems that even when the EVSE is plugged in, once the battery is fully charged it turns off and the Li-ion battery gets too cold.
This past evening, I charged it overnight using the slow (120v) charger, but it was done charging when I got up (the 3 blue dash charge indicator lights were off), and the battery temp only had one bar. It did go into D and could be driven, but it seemed the Li-ion batteries were getting cold again.
I'm now wondering if I can use the charging timer and the cabin heater timer to ensure extend the charging time (so that the warming associated with charging keeps the Li-ion battery warm. Set the 'end' time for charging to 8am, but set the cabin heater timer to 7am, so that the draw from heating the cabin keeps the Li-ion battery from reaching 100%. Feels really clunky, but we'll see.
All this may be moot when this current cold snap here on the Prairies ends this coming weekend.
thanks.
Ray vdZ
 
Nissan has never acknowledged the issues that Leafs have with their 12 volt batteries - thus the somewhat bad advice in the owner's manual. What I would do is use the charging timer to start charging maybe three hours after plugging in with the L-1 cable. That way it will charge all or almost all night. You can also use the climate control timer; you will see about 6-10% net loss of charge if the climate control runs for 15 minutes. Just make sure to set an Off time as well if possible, because IIRC the car will keep running the climate control for quite a while if plugged in. You don't have to worry about the battery getting too cold with one temp bar showing, though, as many of us have driven our Leafs with no temp bars showing. One bar means you are safe.
 
Ray,

I agree, your photos from the 2016 service manual make it clear that USA Leafs do not have heaters while Canadian Leafs do. I missed that table when I looked at the 2016 manual earlier. The 2015 manual does not make that distinction so it appears that all 2013 through 2015 Leafs (at least for North America) have battery heaters. Late production 2011 Leafs which have seat heaters and steering wheel heaters also have battery heaters. Most 2011 Leafs do not have the cold weather accessories and do not have battery heaters.

To get through the extreme cold you are now experiencing, perhaps you could set two charge timers and the climate control timer so that the car charges for a few hours each night on the first charge timer, stops charging for a couple hours, charges a few more hours on the second charge timer, stops for a while, and then charges on the climate control timer to have the interior warm when you are ready to leave. That should help to keep the battery from getting too cold by supplying charging current through most of the night.
 
To get through the extreme cold you are now experiencing, perhaps you could set two charge timers and the climate control timer so that the car charges for a few hours each night on the first charge timer, stops charging for a couple hours, charges a few more hours on the second charge timer, stops for a while, and then charges on the climate control timer to have the interior warm when you are ready to leave.

The problem is that Nissan has never implemented a "stop charging" command. Unless you mean use a timer to fully charge the battery, then the climate control to drain it, then a second charge timer to restart charging? I think that one charge time would suffice, because when the battery dropped from 100% after the first charge, the car would start to charge again automatically. Hmm, the charge time would inhibit that, though..

Ok, how about this? Don't set a charge timer at all. Plug the car in, and set the climate control timer to run for 15 minutes (or a bit longer if allowed) a little after the car will be fully charged. Then the L-1 charging should restart by itself - no timer needed. With some experimenting, it should be possible to do it so the car is charging for most of the night on L-1, and is still charging in the morning. Then the climate control could be activated remotely to warm the cabin.
 
I meant to set charge timer 1 to charge for a few hours, set charge timer 2 to charge for a few more hours, and set climate control timer to charge and warm car starting about 2 hours before departure. Example (using 24 hour time): Charge timer 1 ON at 1700 and OFF at 2200; charge timer 2 ON at 2300 and OFF at 0400; climate control timer ON at 0600 (will automatically stop after 2 hours) for departure at about 0800.
 
We've been having extreme cold temps the last couple of weeks and I notice both my '12SL and '13S which are both parked outside in the below zero F temps, pulsing the first charging light(like the battery was low and being charged but SOC is over 60%). The pulsing happens on either the plugged in Leaf or the one not and seems to be happening very regularly. I haven't had time to really track how much if any the unplugged in Leaf loses SOC% but it does seem noticeable. I could have sworn my '12 had a SOC around 80 percent last night and when I checked it this morning the heater light was pulsing and when I plugged it in it read 60% which would mean a loss of 20% overnight(-10F last night) but I'm not positive it was at 80%. The '12 is mostly sitting while the '13 gets daily use. What I've been doing is plugging the '13 in as soon as someone gets home and the SOC is less than 50% which is almost always and as soon as it finishes charging moving the 16a L2 EVSE over to the '12 where I leave it until it's stopped charging. It's hard to believe the '12's heater draws that much but a few days later and when I plug the '12 in, it's generally less than 80% SOC, just sitting!
 
IIRC, the battery heater can use about 20% charge per day if running constantly. 20% in 8 hours does seem a bit high, as the warmer only draws 300 watts. That would be 50-60% SOC used in one 24 hour period!
 
LeftieBiker said:
IIRC, the battery heater can use about 20% charge per day if running constantly. 20% in 8 hours does seem a bit high, as the warmer only draws 300 watts. That would be 50-60% SOC used in one 24 hour period!

OK I did an accurate test. At 4pm yesterday I checked the SOC on my '12SL and it was 84%. It just sat in one place outside in negative single digits and when I approached the car at 7am this morning(15h later) the blue battery warmer was on and when I checked SOC it had dropped to 65% :( a 19% drop in 15h just sitting, again only in single-digit temps. It's supposed to get even colder tonight, approaching -20F and today's high is only supposed to be in the low(or would it be high, single digits below, approaching 0F). Sunday's high is supposed to be -4F while Sunday night/Monday morning we'll be greeted by -15F.
It won't be driven this weekend at all and I think I'm going to leave it unplugged until Sunday morning, take a SOC reading and see how low it dropped. Then I'll plug it in and charge it up to full(somewhere close to 90% I hope at a time of 10am I'd think) and take the final SOC reading and leave it plugged it. I'm then going to check the SOC Monday morning. What I'm trying to verify is if the EVSE/car will keep waking up to charge the traction battery even after it's fully charged. I don't know for sure but do you think it will? I'm wondering if once the battery is full and stops the charging it might require a cycle of the J1772 connector to start the charging again. If this is the case that would be BAD as what would happen if someone were to be gone for weeks in sub-zero temp, the battery could go almost flat even if plugged in, or at least as low as it would get before the battery heater stops working, somewhere around 20%??
More testing to come....
 
When I used to keep my 2013 plugged in with charging done - before I knew about the accessory battery issue - the car would restart charging once a day at 6:00 pm, for a few minutes. This was because I was using the 'charge to 80% with car's limit set to 100%' trick that you could do with the 2013. For that reason I'm fairly sure that Leafs will restart charging with no cycling of the charge cable plug needed.
 
jjeff said:
LeftieBiker said:
IIRC, the battery heater can use about 20% charge per day if running constantly. 20% in 8 hours does seem a bit high, as the warmer only draws 300 watts. That would be 50-60% SOC used in one 24 hour period!

OK I did an accurate test. At 4pm yesterday I checked the SOC on my '12SL and it was 84%. It just sat in one place outside in negative single digits and when I approached the car at 7am this morning(15h later) the blue battery warmer was on and when I checked SOC it had dropped to 65% :( a 19% drop in 15h just sitting, again only in single-digit temps. It's supposed to get even colder tonight, approaching -20F and today's high is only supposed to be in the low(or would it be high, single digits below, approaching 0F). Sunday's high is supposed to be -4F while Sunday night/Monday morning we'll be greeted by -15F.
It won't be driven this weekend at all and I think I'm going to leave it unplugged until Sunday morning, take a SOC reading and see how low it dropped. Then I'll plug it in and charge it up to full(somewhere close to 90% I hope at a time of 10am I'd think) and take the final SOC reading and leave it plugged it. I'm then going to check the SOC Monday morning. What I'm trying to verify is if the EVSE/car will keep waking up to charge the traction battery even after it's fully charged. I don't know for sure but do you think it will? I'm wondering if once the battery is full and stops the charging it might require a cycle of the J1772 connector to start the charging again. If this is the case that would be BAD as what would happen if someone were to be gone for weeks in sub-zero temp, the battery could go almost flat even if plugged in, or at least as low as it would get before the battery heater stops working, somewhere around 20%??
More testing to come....
Well, last I left my 12SL at 7am yesterday it was at 65% SOC, the battery warmer was on basically all day yesterday and for sure all last night, this morning at 8am(25hrs later) SOC was 57% for an 8% drop, less than half the drop of the 15hr period before that when I'd assume it was even a bit warmer outside....... :?
I plugged it in at 8am and will note the SOC% when it stops charging, I'll leave it plugged in and then recheck the SOC% tomorrow morning to make sure the SOC% is the same and hasn't dropped due to the battery heater which I'm guessing will be on all day today and tonight(-18F tomorrow morning forecast and high -4F today).

On another note, I plugged in my '13S yesterday evening and it charged to 100% and stopped charging, I left the EVSE hooked up and like my '12SL I'm guessing the battery heater ran all night long. When I checked it's SOC at 8am this morning it was still 100% which tells me the car must have started charging again last night as otherwise it would have dropped SOC, that's a good thing.

On another note, I'm wondering what would be the best strategy for long term outside storage of an EV in an extremely cold(for an extended period of time) climate, lots of places worse than MN. If you leave it plugged in it seems like the vehicle will be near constantly drawing 300w for the battery, in sub-zero temps I've noted the battery warmer really never goes off. 300w 24x7 is nothing to sneeze at, seems like a real waste of electricity to me. I wonder if it might not just be better to not plug it in, in which case the battery would get down to 20% SOC and then stop the 300w heater, it would stay at this roughly 20% until you plugged it back in. This would eliminate the 300w 24x7 constant draw but I wonder at what harm to the battery? I've read it's not good to let the battery get too cold and it's also probably not the best to leave it at a relatively low 20% SOC? Now I know it might be different but I've always stored my single-use batteries, mostly alkaline but also lithium button batteries in the freezer for long term storage, I've read in the past it helps extend their shelf life. Other than the fact that these batteries will be stored at near 100% SOC what's different about these batteries compared to our Leaf batteries, is it that the Leaf batteries is rechargeable vs single-use alkaline and Li button batteries?
I don't have to worry about any of this with my ICE vehicles, they can sit outside in all kinds of weather and once it warms up, they just fire up. Note I do generally put a small 10w? battery tender on their 12v battery but that's peanuts to a 300w Leaf battery heater.
Personally, I really think a Leaf should be garaged in sub-zero temps, just makes things easier all around. It's not like you have to really heat the garage, just keep it from getting sub-zero, if indeed leaving it at sub-zero temps for an extended period of time is harmful to the battery.
 
SageBrush said:
SoC is temperature dependent (and reversible)

I agree. There is no other way to explain the SOC used by my morning commute vs the afternoon commute except that in the morning the battery is cold (lower SOC) and then warms up (higher SOC). I don't arrive with a higher SOC than when I left but the effect is very noticeable. At least when the car is in the 4-5 temp bar range. These days, the to and fro commutes are nearly equal in the amount of SOC used.
 
jjeff said:
I plugged it in at 8am and will note the SOC% when it stops charging, I'll leave it plugged in and then recheck the SOC% tomorrow morning to make sure the SOC% is the same and hasn't dropped due to the battery heater which I'm guessing will be on all day today and tonight(-18F tomorrow morning forecast and high -4F today).

On another note, I plugged in my '13S yesterday evening and it charged to 100% and stopped charging, I left the EVSE hooked up and like my '12SL I'm guessing the battery heater ran all night long. When I checked it's SOC at 8am this morning it was still 100% which tells me the car must have started charging again last night as otherwise it would have dropped SOC, that's a good thing.

Well I think I've discovered something and like basically everything else about my '12 It's a negative :(
First, while I plugged it in yesterday morning at 8am it wasn't until about 2pm it stopped charging and went to sleep, 6hrs to go from 65% SOC to 85% which is where it finally stopped, 20% in the summer would have taken a little more than an hour at the 240v @ 16a I fed it. Note I didn't note the charging speed but I'd guess is was very low to have taken so long. Regardless at 2pm Sunday SOC was 85% and most of the time I looked after that the 300w battery heater was on(single driver's side blue light flashing on the dash). Note I have a LeafDD display always hooked to the OBDII port and every time the heater ran and light flashed, my LeafDD powered up and I could see the SOC without powering on the car. My EVSE charge light also flashed like it was actually charging but it's my belief it was not charging at all, wish that EVSE had a display but just the lights. Anyway one reason I believe it did NOT actually charge as this morning at 6am, 16h after I plugged it in, my SOC was 75% :x this tells me my fear was correct, once the '12 stops charging it does NOT wake up to charge again, even if the battery warmer draws down the battery! You'd need to cycle the j1772 or possibly push the timer override button to get it to charge. Note I don't have a timer set so maybe that wouldn't work but thinking it through maybe a timer would solve this issue at at the specified time it might start charging if the battery were not full? Note this is NOT how my '13 works, it works better IMO in that if you leave the EVSE plugged in the car will automatically wake up if the heater draws down the traction batter, another + for post '12 Leafs.
 
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