RayvdZaag
Posts: 3
Joined: Fri Nov 29, 2019 2:12 pm
Delivery Date: 12 Nov 2019

Do 2016 SV models sold in the US have battery heaters?

Mon Feb 08, 2021 8:28 pm

Hi, everyone.
My first post.
We have a 2016 SV that we purchased fall 2019 in B.C. and had shipped to us in Winnipeg. It was imported by a dealer in B.C. from the U.S. (California).
Last winter was not particularly cold (no real cold snaps) and we only had a 120v slow charger, and never had any trouble with the car not 'starting' in cold weather. This summer, we installed a level 2 charger, which we like because it doesn't take 16 hours to charge anymore.
But we just had a very cold snap here (-35C over several nights). The manual says to always plug in the car when the ambient temp is below -17C, but I forgot to do that the first cold night. In the morning, it wouldn't go. Display indicated a cold battery (no bars on the battery temp gauge), range showed --- instead of numbers, and it would not enter R or D.)
So I plugged in the Level 2 charger that day (even though the battery was still almost fully charged), and after several hours charging, still no go.
My son is a Red Seal (certified) mechanic at one of the local Nissan dealers, though they were not 'certified' to carry the LEAF until last year, and he has only had training on the 2nd generation.
We tested the voltage on the 12v battery, which was low, so we thought that might be preventing the electronics from turning on the battery heater. With a regular battery charger connected to the 12v battery, we eventually could get the car to go.
We charged the 12v battery, and left the Level 2 charger plugged in all night, but the next morning it again was no go.
Again, after running the 12v battery charger on hi for about 1 hour, I managed to get it to 'shift' to D.
My son checked the VIN, and looked up the Nissan service manual, and it appears that the US and Canadian 30kw (SV and SL) models differ in whether they have a battery heater. This is only for 2016, I think. When he used the diagnostic computer to call for codes (DTCs) for the heater relay, the relay appeared not to be present. (Not sure I'm explaining that exactly right.)
So we are wondering if using only the Level 1 (120v) charger last winter meant the battery was almost always being charged (and so warmed), while now using the Level 2 (240v) charger means the battery gets finished charging and then gets cold.
(I should note the car came with a 2017 Owners Manual, which states as others have noted on these forums that the battery heater will turn on when the temp is below -17c, and even use its own power to keep 'warm' when not plugged in and the temp drops below -17c). Not sure what the 2016 Manual states.)
Sorry for the long post, but to summarize, several questions:
- anyone else with experience with a weak 12v battery causing charging/cold Li-ion battery problems?
- anyone else wondering (based on experience) about no battery heater in 2016 30kw models from the US?
- anyone have experience possibly rigging a battery warmer (using pipe tracing heater tape between the battery and the undertray?
Thanks
Ray vdZaag

LeftieBiker
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Re: Do 2016 SV models sold in the US have battery heaters?

Mon Feb 08, 2021 9:35 pm

If they stopped including battery warmers in US Leafs after 2011, it's news to me. They do switch off at below 30% charge, though. It's also possible that you froze your 12 volt battery, and when you thought it was charged it was just showing a 'surface charge' with no real amperage available.

* What was the state of charge (SOC) when you parked the car?

* Do you ever leave the car plugged in after charging ends?

My own experience with frigid weather is that the battery warmer only runs in sustained temps of below 10F, and usually not all the time. Anyway, it will be interesting to see if you have a defective battery warmer, or...none at all.
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
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PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

GerryAZ
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Re: Do 2016 SV models sold in the US have battery heaters?

Tue Feb 09, 2021 4:21 pm

I just read through the service manual for 2016 and did not see any indication that USA cars lack the battery heater system or that there are heater differences between 24 and 30 kWh batteries. Just to be clear, most 2011's do not have the cold weather package (and thus no battery heater system). 2012 and later cars should have battery heaters (at least those with 24 kWh batteries). The owner manual for my 2019 implies that a different system is used to protect the 62 kWh battery from freezing, but the 40 kWh battery has the conventional resistance heaters. I have been unable to confirm this difference by reading the service manual, but am not worried about needing battery heat where I live.

The 2016 service manual does say that battery heaters will not turn on if the car is not plugged in and the SOC is below 30%. It also states that battery temperature drops to -20 degrees C (-4 F) before heaters turn on and that heaters turn off at -10 degrees C +14 F).
Gerry
Silver LEAF 2011 SL rear ended (totaled) by in-attentive driver 1/4/2015 at 50,422 miles
Silver LEAF 2015 SL purchased 2/7/2015; traded 8/10/2019 at 82,436 miles
White LEAF 2019 SL Plus purchased 8/10/2019

RayvdZaag
Posts: 3
Joined: Fri Nov 29, 2019 2:12 pm
Delivery Date: 12 Nov 2019

Re: Do 2016 SV models sold in the US have battery heaters?

Wed Feb 10, 2021 8:05 pm

Thanks for the responses.
- The Li-ion battery was sufficiently charged (about 90km range, if I recall) when initially parked overnight on the cold night, so that I didn't think I needed to plug it in to charge for the next day. And after we finally got it going, it had close to a full charge.
- Yes we normally leave it plugged in (charging on the Level 2 charger) until the next morning, even if it has reached full charge and the 3 blue lights on the dash stop flashing.
- As I stated, the 12v battery was weak, and it may be that it froze and so that may be the source of the problem. But I have never seen the third blue light flashing, as the manual indicates it should, when the 12v battery is being charged by the Li-ion battery.
We have now replaced the 12v battery, and are using the 120v Level 1 charger overnight. This means the Li-ion battery is not even fully charged by morning, but also that the Li-ion battery temp gauge still shows 2 bars in the morning (presumably due to the heating caused by the charging.)
I have ordered a bluetooth OBDII reader and downloaded the Leafspy app, so that I can monitor battery temps at home. Some evening when the temp is just around -20C, I'll use the Level 2 charger again and see if the battery maintains its temp once the Li-ion battery is charged. (Right now we are in a week-long cold snap due to a polar vortex over the Prairies, with nighttime temps of -35C.)
Re: whether US models have an installed battery warmer, I've attached two images, taken from the factory service manual for the 2016 Leaf,. The first shows a table which seems to clearly indicate that US models don't have a battery warmer. The second is simply a chart on how to decode the VIN as to whether it is a US, Canadian or Mexico model (key digit is digit 12). (As I mentioned in my first post, our Leaf was imported to Canada from the US and has the corresponding U - and not N - in position 12).
Image
Image
Any further thoughts, questions or additional information regarding this issue of battery warmers in US models would be appreciated.
Ray vdZ

LeftieBiker
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Re: Do 2016 SV models sold in the US have battery heaters?

Wed Feb 10, 2021 9:57 pm

No images, I'm afraid. You have to link them, rather than try to attach them.
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
BAFX OBDII Dongle
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

goldbrick
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Re: Do 2016 SV models sold in the US have battery heaters?

Thu Feb 11, 2021 12:37 pm

I'm pretty sure that all the battery swappers, cell removers, etc that have looked inside Leaf batteries have said that 2012+ Leafs have battery warmers in them. Not sure about the 62kWh pack since I haven't seen any tear downs of those but all 24kWh and 30kWh packs I have read about mentioned the battery heaters. It may not be listed as an option in any literature since it is standard on all packs now. What specifically did you read that makes you think there are no heaters in the packs now?

I'd also say it is general consensus that - at least on some model years - leaving the EVSE plugged in when the car is not charging can drain the 12V battery. A low 12V supply voltage can cause all sorts of issues since the car's control electronics run off that battery and they seem to be susceptible to misfunction when the 12V supply voltage drops too low.

RayvdZaag
Posts: 3
Joined: Fri Nov 29, 2019 2:12 pm
Delivery Date: 12 Nov 2019

Re: Do 2016 SV models sold in the US have battery heaters?

Thu Feb 11, 2021 4:22 pm

Sorry, I inserted the url from iCloud between the Image symbols.
I'll use the URL symbol.
https://share.icloud.com/photos/0Qw9b4T ... -Hey7p9VyQ
https://share.icloud.com/photos/0kbhQSi ... K-QF7OnxnQ
Goldbrick, we certainly had assumed that our Leaf had a battery warmer. But the factory service manual table (image linked now, hopefully) makes us wonder. Regarding keeping the EVSE plugged in, the owner's manuals states that the car should be plugged in at all times when the temp goes below -17C. I guess that is our confusion - it seems that even when the EVSE is plugged in, once the battery is fully charged it turns off and the Li-ion battery gets too cold.
This past evening, I charged it overnight using the slow (120v) charger, but it was done charging when I got up (the 3 blue dash charge indicator lights were off), and the battery temp only had one bar. It did go into D and could be driven, but it seemed the Li-ion batteries were getting cold again.
I'm now wondering if I can use the charging timer and the cabin heater timer to ensure extend the charging time (so that the warming associated with charging keeps the Li-ion battery warm. Set the 'end' time for charging to 8am, but set the cabin heater timer to 7am, so that the draw from heating the cabin keeps the Li-ion battery from reaching 100%. Feels really clunky, but we'll see.
All this may be moot when this current cold snap here on the Prairies ends this coming weekend.
thanks.
Ray vdZ

LeftieBiker
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Re: Do 2016 SV models sold in the US have battery heaters?

Thu Feb 11, 2021 4:38 pm

Nissan has never acknowledged the issues that Leafs have with their 12 volt batteries - thus the somewhat bad advice in the owner's manual. What I would do is use the charging timer to start charging maybe three hours after plugging in with the L-1 cable. That way it will charge all or almost all night. You can also use the climate control timer; you will see about 6-10% net loss of charge if the climate control runs for 15 minutes. Just make sure to set an Off time as well if possible, because IIRC the car will keep running the climate control for quite a while if plugged in. You don't have to worry about the battery getting too cold with one temp bar showing, though, as many of us have driven our Leafs with no temp bars showing. One bar means you are safe.
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
BAFX OBDII Dongle
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

GerryAZ
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Re: Do 2016 SV models sold in the US have battery heaters?

Thu Feb 11, 2021 6:17 pm

Ray,

I agree, your photos from the 2016 service manual make it clear that USA Leafs do not have heaters while Canadian Leafs do. I missed that table when I looked at the 2016 manual earlier. The 2015 manual does not make that distinction so it appears that all 2013 through 2015 Leafs (at least for North America) have battery heaters. Late production 2011 Leafs which have seat heaters and steering wheel heaters also have battery heaters. Most 2011 Leafs do not have the cold weather accessories and do not have battery heaters.

To get through the extreme cold you are now experiencing, perhaps you could set two charge timers and the climate control timer so that the car charges for a few hours each night on the first charge timer, stops charging for a couple hours, charges a few more hours on the second charge timer, stops for a while, and then charges on the climate control timer to have the interior warm when you are ready to leave. That should help to keep the battery from getting too cold by supplying charging current through most of the night.
Gerry
Silver LEAF 2011 SL rear ended (totaled) by in-attentive driver 1/4/2015 at 50,422 miles
Silver LEAF 2015 SL purchased 2/7/2015; traded 8/10/2019 at 82,436 miles
White LEAF 2019 SL Plus purchased 8/10/2019

LeftieBiker
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Re: Do 2016 SV models sold in the US have battery heaters?

Thu Feb 11, 2021 6:41 pm

To get through the extreme cold you are now experiencing, perhaps you could set two charge timers and the climate control timer so that the car charges for a few hours each night on the first charge timer, stops charging for a couple hours, charges a few more hours on the second charge timer, stops for a while, and then charges on the climate control timer to have the interior warm when you are ready to leave.
The problem is that Nissan has never implemented a "stop charging" command. Unless you mean use a timer to fully charge the battery, then the climate control to drain it, then a second charge timer to restart charging? I think that one charge time would suffice, because when the battery dropped from 100% after the first charge, the car would start to charge again automatically. Hmm, the charge time would inhibit that, though..

Ok, how about this? Don't set a charge timer at all. Plug the car in, and set the climate control timer to run for 15 minutes (or a bit longer if allowed) a little after the car will be fully charged. Then the L-1 charging should restart by itself - no timer needed. With some experimenting, it should be possible to do it so the car is charging for most of the night on L-1, and is still charging in the morning. Then the climate control could be activated remotely to warm the cabin.
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
BAFX OBDII Dongle
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

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