Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

[WetEV]

Remember supply chains. How much Lithium needs to mined, refined, made into batteries? How do you do this all with less or no fossil fuels? How long does it take to build the battery plants?

Edit: Just in case you're thinking down this path. There are currently 6.8 million tons of lithium in the known reserves in the US. That's enough lithium to make 6868 TWh of battery storage (using known example of 63kg of lithium in a 70kwh Tesla model S battery pack), which is almost 50% MORE than all the electricity consumed in the US in 2021.

Looks like a quotation mistake. Hope you agree.

Lithium isn't uncommon. Resources is the number you want, and is much bigger than reserves. But starting up mines, refining, plants to make batteries, plants to make machines that make all the above, training staff, building infrastructure, all of this takes time.

Repeat for semiconductors, copper, steel and plastics.

I can design/build both. The summer cabin lights for 8 hrs is easy. The 365x7x24 is doable, but not with solar alone (need a wood pellet stove and a wind turbine at minimum). And if you don't want to burn wood, then a dual-fuel generator (to burn methane in case anyone figures out how to commercialize a machine to make methane from CO2 and H2O).

Biofuels are mostly in direct competition with either human and wild animal food/shelter. There just isn't enough biofuels for the Whole Earth.

How many minutes of battery does the national grid have?

The national grid is a trick question, since there isn't one. There are only inter-connected regional grids, of which there are 3 major ones.

Quibble. Pick a grid. Your choice.

As for the mining without fossil fuels, why is that a requirement (Although Sweden is testing a BEV mining truck, it's not ready yet)? Keep in mind that the amount of minerals needed to produce the batteries aren't a continuous need. Batteries can be recycled, as are most non-consumables. So past a certain capacity, you don't need to exponentially increase the number of mines. Whoever came up with the tons-of-batteries-in-a-landfill worry is an idiot.

What fraction of CO2 is released by basic materials mining and refining? How much CO2 can we release, long term meaning thousands of years?

[WetEV]

Remember supply chains. How much Lithium needs to mined, refined, made into batteries? How do you do this all with less or no fossil fuels? How long does it take to build the battery plants?

Looks like a quotation mistake. Hope you agree.

Lithium isn't uncommon. Resources is the number you want, and is much bigger than reserves. But starting up mines, refining, plants to make batteries, plants to make machines that make all the above, training staff, building infrastructure, all of this takes time.

Repeat for semiconductors, copper, steel and plastics.
Biofuels are mostly in direct competition with either human and wild animal food/shelter. There just isn't enough biofuels for the Whole Earth.

Quibble. Pick a grid. Your choice.

What fraction of CO2 is released by basic materials mining and refining? How much CO2 can we release, long term meaning thousands of years?

[WetEV]

Remember supply chains. How much Lithium needs to mined, refined, made into batteries? How do you do this all with less or no fossil fuels? How long does it take to build the battery plants?

Edit: Just in case you're thinking down this path. There are currently 6.8 million tons of lithium in the known reserves in the US. That's enough lithium to make 6868 TWh of battery storage (using known example of 63kg of lithium in a 70kwh Tesla model S battery pack), which is almost 50% MORE than all the electricity consumed in the US in 2021.

Looks like a quotation mistake. Hope you agree.

Lithium isn't uncommon. Resources is the number you want, and is much bigger than reserves. But starting up mines, refining, plants to make batteries, plants to make machines that make all the above, training staff, building infrastructure, all of this takes time.

Repeat for semiconductors, copper, steel and plastics.

I can design/build both. The summer cabin lights for 8 hrs is easy. The 365x7x24 is doable, but not with solar alone (need a wood pellet stove and a wind turbine at minimum). And if you don't want to burn wood, then a dual-fuel generator (to burn methane in case anyone figures out how to commercialize a machine to make methane from CO2 and H2O).

Biofuels are mostly in direct competition with either human and wild animal food/shelter. There just isn't enough biofuels for the Whole Earth.

The national grid is a trick question, since there isn't one. There are only inter-connected regional grids, of which there are 3 major ones.

Quibble. Pick a grid. Your choice.

As for the mining without fossil fuels, why is that a requirement (Although Sweden is testing a BEV mining truck, it's not ready yet)? Keep in mind that the amount of minerals needed to produce the batteries aren't a continuous need. Batteries can be recycled, as are most non-consumables. So past a certain capacity, you don't need to exponentially increase the number of mines. Whoever came up with the tons-of-batteries-in-a-landfill worry is an idiot.

What fraction of CO2 is released by basic materials mining and refining? How much CO2 can we release, long term meaning thousands of years?

[LeftieBiker]

Biofuels are mostly in direct competition with either human and wild animal food/shelter. There just isn't enough biofuels for the Whole Earth.

My money is on specialized algae grown on sewage. There is quite a bit of that available, and the more people, the more...fuel.

[WetEV]

Biofuels are mostly in direct competition with either human and wild animal food/shelter. There just isn't enough biofuels for the Whole Earth.

My money is on specialized algae grown on sewage. There is quite a bit of that available, and the more people, the more...fuel.

Growing algae requires sunlight. Like a solar cell, but an order of magnitude less efficiency at very best. Real world examples are far less efficient. This requires a vast area.

Getting nutrients, which sewage can provide, is the least of the problems with growing algae for energy.

[Oils4AsphaultOnly]

The quoting system seems to have gone bonkers.

Edit: Just in case you're thinking down this path. There are currently 6.8 million tons of lithium in the known reserves in the US. That's enough lithium to make 6868 TWh of battery storage (using known example of 63kg of lithium in a 70kwh Tesla model S battery pack), which is almost 50% MORE than all the electricity consumed in the US in 2021.

Looks like a quotation mistake. Hope you agree.

Lithium isn't uncommon. Resources is the number you want, and is much bigger than reserves. But starting up mines, refining, plants to make batteries, plants to make machines that make all the above, training staff, building infrastructure, all of this takes time.

Repeat for semiconductors, copper, steel and plastics.

I never disagreed with you on the "takes time" part, only claimed that it was "easy", in the sense that no new tech needed to be developed.

I can design/build both. The summer cabin lights for 8 hrs is easy. The 365x7x24 is doable, but not with solar alone (need a wood pellet stove and a wind turbine at minimum). And if you don't want to burn wood, then a dual-fuel generator (to burn methane in case anyone figures out how to commercialize a machine to make methane from CO2 and H2O).

Biofuels are mostly in direct competition with either human and wild animal food/shelter. There just isn't enough biofuels for the Whole Earth.

Sorry, let's agree on what's "bio fuels" first. When I read Biofuels, I read it as crops grown to produce ethanol. I'm actually advocating for banning that completely, exactly because it consumes fuel for the purpose of reducing fuel consumption. It's tech that's a waste of time and resources.

But if you're including wood into the biofuels category, then I don't think there's as much of a competition with food production as you think. The fruit orchards regularly uproot their "old" fruit trees after they stop producing. The wood would release CO2 from decomposition anyway, so burning it for heat doesn't add to the CO2 total. Burning it to produce electricity is no-go, and not what I had spelled out in my off-grid solution.

The national grid is a trick question, since there isn't one. There are only inter-connected regional grids, of which there are 3 major ones.

Quibble. Pick a grid. Your choice.

Why does it matter how much there currently is? There isn't enough battery storage in the grid for all the solar and wind that we already have installed. That's why there's curtailment. They are however being added, and they will have an outsized impact on the reduction of fossil fuel use in electricity generation.

But just so you have the info, there's 1.6GWh as of 2020 (https://www.energy-storage.news/eia-us- ... d-of-2020/)

As for the mining without fossil fuels, why is that a requirement (Although Sweden is testing a BEV mining truck, it's not ready yet)? Keep in mind that the amount of minerals needed to produce the batteries aren't a continuous need. Batteries can be recycled, as are most non-consumables. So past a certain capacity, you don't need to exponentially increase the number of mines. Whoever came up with the tons-of-batteries-in-a-landfill worry is an idiot.

What fraction of CO2 is released by basic materials mining and refining? How much CO2 can we release, long term meaning thousands of years?

The CO2 released by basic materials mining is too miniscule in the grand scheme of things. The entire global mining industry contributes 8% to the global CO2 footprint (https://www.nature.com/articles/s43247-022-00346-4). It would fall under the "industry" category: https://www.epa.gov/ghgemissions/source ... -emissions. CO2 from every other category (like transportation, electricity, and agriculture) are bigger culprits and should be addressed first. Increasing the mining CO2 footprint to reduce the electricity footprint seems like a worthwhile tradeoff.

You don't need to mine for thousands of years, since you can recycle to reduce the need for more mineral extraction. This isn't coal and oil where the product is literally burned off after use.

[WetEV]

Lithium isn't uncommon. Resources is the number you want, and is much bigger than reserves. But starting up mines, refining, plants to make batteries, plants to make machines that make all the above, training staff, building infrastructure, all of this takes time.

Repeat for semiconductors, copper, steel and plastics.

I never disagreed with you on the "takes time" part, only claimed that it was "easy", in the sense that no new tech needed to be developed.

If you include nuclear power.

If you will not include nuclear power, then new technologies need to be developed. While they are, new nuclear plants will need to be built to replace existing plants as the existing plants reach end of life until the new technologies are developed and deployed at scale.

Biofuels are mostly in direct competition with either human and wild animal food/shelter. There just isn't enough biofuels for the Whole Earth.

Sorry, let's agree on what's "bio fuels" first. When I read Biofuels, I read it as crops grown to produce ethanol. I'm actually advocating for banning that completely, exactly because it consumes fuel for the purpose of reducing fuel consumption. It's tech that's a waste of time and resources.

But if you're including wood into the biofuels category, then I don't think there's as much of a competition with food production as you think. The fruit orchards regularly uproot their "old" fruit trees after they stop producing. The wood would release CO2 from decomposition anyway, so burning it for heat doesn't add to the CO2 total. Burning it to produce electricity is no-go, and not what I had spelled out in my off-grid solution.

Of course wood is a biofuel. How much wood is grown every year? How does that compare with the current energy usage?

The national grid is a trick question, since there isn't one. There are only inter-connected regional grids, of which there are 3 major ones.

Quibble. Pick a grid. Your choice.

Why does it matter how much there currently is? There isn't enough battery storage in the grid for all the solar and wind that we already have installed. That's why there's curtailment. They are however being added, and they will have an outsized impact on the reduction of fossil fuel use in electricity generation.

But just so you have the info, there's 1.6GWh as of 2020 (https://www.energy-storage.news/eia-us- ... d-of-2020/)

Half the answer, and none of the simple math. And I think there is more as of right now.

https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/ele ... ricity.php

3.9 trillion kWh per year.

Let me get the answer in seconds:

(1600000 kWh storage / 3900000000000 kWh per year) *365 days per year *24 hours per day *60 minutes per hour *60 seconds per hour.

Check my math, will you? I get it wrong, sometimes.

About 13 seconds. There is no massive impact on the grid from this. Or ten times this, but some impact on good renewable power days.

[oxothuk]

Let me get the answer in seconds:

(1600000 kWh storage / 3900000000000 kWh per year) *365 days per year *24 hours per day *60 minutes per hour *60 seconds per hour.

Check my math, will you? I get it wrong, sometimes.

About 13 seconds. There is no massive impact on the grid from this. Or ten times this, but some impact on good renewable power days.

I redid your calculation and came up with about 13000 seconds, or 3.5 hours

[LeftieBiker]

Big difference. Usable vs unusable. Insignificant vs significant...

[lorenfb]

Let me get the answer in seconds:

(1600000 kWh storage / 3900000000000 kWh per year) *365 days per year *24 hours per day *60 minutes per hour *60 seconds per hour.

Check my math, will you? I get it wrong, sometimes.

About 13 seconds. There is no massive impact on the grid from this. Or ten times this, but some impact on good renewable power days.

Correct.

T (sec) = (1.6*10^6) * (3.65*10^2)*(8.64*10^4) / (3.9*10^12) = 12.93