LEAF's 12V battery behaviors - and why they go bad

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Thank you both for your replies:
Here is an LFP I found online; however, the price is way too high; I expect to pay a bit of a premium but not that much; What are others using and what has been their experience?
https://antigravitybatteries.com/products/starter-batteries/automotive/ag-51r-rs/
 
fotajoye said:
Thank you both for your replies:
Here is an LFP I found online; however, the price is way too high; I expect to pay a bit of a premium but not that much; What are others using and what has been their experience?
https://antigravitybatteries.com/products/starter-batteries/automotive/ag-51r-rs/
I recommend either Antigravity or LithiumPros (what I have) 12v batteries: they are much better than the "cheap" Chinese batteries (with no BMS, voltage protection, etc.) that you see out there.
You also need to think a bit "out of the box" with the Leaf (and really all EVs). You don't require a 51R type battery to make things work; a much smaller battery (both physically and Ahr-wise) will work just fine in a vehicle that doesn't require "cranking Amps". For example, these would work (https://antigravitybatteries.com/products/starter-batteries/automotive/ag-26-rs/) and (https://lithiumpros.com/collections/all-products/products/t1600-16v-20ah-lithium-ion-racing-battery) for less $ than the one you identified above. There is nothing wrong with changing out the terminals, using spacers to fit under the clamp, etc.
 
Stanton said:
fotajoye said:
Thank you both for your replies:
Here is an LFP I found online; however, the price is way too high; I expect to pay a bit of a premium but not that much; What are others using and what has been their experience?
https://antigravitybatteries.com/products/starter-batteries/automotive/ag-51r-rs/
I recommend either Antigravity or LithiumPros (what I have) 12v batteries: they are much better than the "cheap" Chinese batteries (with no BMS, voltage protection, etc.) that you see out there.
You also need to think a bit "out of the box" with the Leaf (and really all EVs). You don't require a 51R type battery to make things work; a much smaller battery (both physically and Ahr-wise) will work just fine in a vehicle that doesn't require "cranking Amps". For example, these would work (https://antigravitybatteries.com/products/starter-batteries/automotive/ag-26-rs/) and (https://lithiumpros.com/collections/all-products/products/t1600-16v-20ah-lithium-ion-racing-battery) for less $ than the one you identified above. There is nothing wrong with changing out the terminals, using spacers to fit under the clamp, etc.
Maybe they are just trying to sell chargers, but the Antigravity battery says "IMPORTANT: Only use Lithium Lifepo4 Charger when charging these batteries from a charger"
The LithiumPros says no special charger is required, just one that will do AGM or a gel battery and outputs between 13.5 and 14.4v. I do wonder/worry about the statement 100a 14.4v max as I believe the Leaf is capable of outputting more than 100a? although in that case, I'd assume not all that would be going into the battery but rather other devices along with the battery?? The LithiumPro says for a float charger they don't want more than 13.5v but to not let the battery get less than 11v.
Other than the battery charger thing I kind of like the Antigravity battery as it says it has a feature to automatically disconnect the battery if a parasitic load gets the battery too low and even when it does that, it has a remote that enables you to turn the battery back on to start the car, they call it a kind of internal jump starter, which again sounds nice. The LithiumPro recommends an external battery disconnect switch but it's not mandatory.
If it were me I'd probably go with the 16 or 20ah and if money weren't an issue the 24 or 30ah group 51R size Antigravity.
I do kind of worry about cold weather performance as I've read Li batteries don't like sub-zero temp use, or maybe charging is more correct and I'm also concerned neither battery had an operating temp range, although maybe I just missed it? I'm sure people in CA or TX wouldn't be affected but it can get -20f or colder in MN, so again a slight concern for people in such areas.
 
jjeff said:
The LithiumPros says no special charger is required, just one that will do AGM or a gel battery and outputs between 13.5 and 14.4v. I do wonder/worry about the statement 100a 14.4v max as I believe the Leaf is capable of outputting more than 100a? although in that case, I'd assume not all that would be going into the battery but rather other devices along with the battery?? The LithiumPro says for a float charger they don't want more than 13.5v but to not let the battery get less than 11v.
I don't want to get into a big debate, but the FUD about these LiFePO4 batteries and compatibility with the Leaf needs to stop.
They don't need a "special charger" and the Leaf doesn't "blow up" the 12v battery with some ridiculous charging current.
I have used the same Lithium 12v battery in my Leaf for over 8 years now with no issues!
 
It seems like its different charge power cross the different year models.
It looks for me that something happened around the 2016 year model, the charge seems to be higher then the older models.
So a LiFePO4 12.8V battery that works for a 2013 model may not work on 2016 model and up.

The problem is finding a LiFePO4 12.8V that have a BMS that will handle the A on 2016 and newer.

(With this said, I have not a clue what the new Leafs do when it comes to this.

We are talking about 140A and more...

But if your LiFePO4 12.8V battery dont have a BMS, no problem. Until the cells are so unbalanced/mistreaded that the battery gives up the spirit...

I am currently waiting for my lithium cells for the permanent battery I will install, there will be no BMS, and full charge to -40°C.

Also it seems like the voltage and current that shows in Leaf Spy PRO does not correspond to the actual readings that I get in my BMS.
I dont know why, maybe its because of different measure points...
Example: When its 24A draw because of the AC its on, Leaf Spy Pro reports 0A. Also wrong voltage.
When the charge is 84A, Leaf Spy Pro reports 23A.

I will check this out. :)
 
Stanton said:
jjeff said:
The LithiumPros says no special charger is required, just one that will do AGM or a gel battery and outputs between 13.5 and 14.4v. I do wonder/worry about the statement 100a 14.4v max as I believe the Leaf is capable of outputting more than 100a? although in that case, I'd assume not all that would be going into the battery but rather other devices along with the battery?? The LithiumPro says for a float charger they don't want more than 13.5v but to not let the battery get less than 11v.
I don't want to get into a big debate, but the FUD about these LiFePO4 batteries and compatibility with the Leaf needs to stop.
They don't need a "special charger" and the Leaf doesn't "blow up" the 12v battery with some ridiculous charging current.
I have used the same Lithium 12v battery in my Leaf for over 8 years now with no issues!
FUD? the statement about a special charger(that you conveniently omitted from your quote of mine!) said, and I'll quote again for you, in case you missed it the first time, is "IMPORTANT: Only use Lithium Lifepo4 Charger when charging these batteries from a charger" again this is coming directly from the seller of the battery you linked, not some random quote I pulled off the web :)
 
jjeff said:
Stanton said:
jjeff said:
The LithiumPros says no special charger is required, just one that will do AGM or a gel battery and outputs between 13.5 and 14.4v. I do wonder/worry about the statement 100a 14.4v max as I believe the Leaf is capable of outputting more than 100a? although in that case, I'd assume not all that would be going into the battery but rather other devices along with the battery?? The LithiumPro says for a float charger they don't want more than 13.5v but to not let the battery get less than 11v.
I don't want to get into a big debate, but the FUD about these LiFePO4 batteries and compatibility with the Leaf needs to stop.
They don't need a "special charger" and the Leaf doesn't "blow up" the 12v battery with some ridiculous charging current.
I have used the same Lithium 12v battery in my Leaf for over 8 years now with no issues!
FUD? the statement about a special charger(that you conveniently omitted from your quote of mine!) said, and I'll quote again for you, in case you missed it the first time, is "IMPORTANT: Only use Lithium Lifepo4 Charger when charging these batteries from a charger" again this is coming directly from the seller of the battery you linked, not some random quote I pulled off the web :)
That statement is not associated with the batteries we are talking about (or the one who's link I provided)...so it becomes FUD to the folks who come on here trying to find Lithium 12v battery solutions.
 
Stanton said:
jjeff said:
Stanton said:
I don't want to get into a big debate, but the FUD about these LiFePO4 batteries and compatibility with the Leaf needs to stop.
They don't need a "special charger" and the Leaf doesn't "blow up" the 12v battery with some ridiculous charging current.
I have used the same Lithium 12v battery in my Leaf for over 8 years now with no issues!
FUD? the statement about a special charger(that you conveniently omitted from your quote of mine!) said, and I'll quote again for you, in case you missed it the first time, is "IMPORTANT: Only use Lithium Lifepo4 Charger when charging these batteries from a charger" again this is coming directly from the seller of the battery you linked, not some random quote I pulled off the web :)
That statement is not associated with the batteries we are talking about (or the one who's link I provided)...so it becomes FUD to the folks who come on here trying to find Lithium 12v battery solutions.
It's precisely from the link you posted :) the first one, near the bottom of the page surrounded by a big orange box with an orange! surrounded by a triangle.
Now I did question the motive behind this in my first quote, suggesting maybe it was to sell battery chargers, but it is what it is. People can ignore what the seller says(and I personally would be inclined to go this route) or go by the suggestion of the seller and purchase a special charger if they wanted to charge the battery outside the vehicle.
 
It's NOT "FUD" to provide relevant information from the manufacturer of a battery that is being promoted - I'm not sure that you understand what FUD is, Stanton. It is people deliberately trying to sow fear about a product in order to harm its manufacturer financially. Jjeff is not, as far as I can tell, doing anything of the sort.
 
BluetoothMonster said:
It seems like its different charge power cross the different year models.
It looks for me that something happened around the 2016 year model, the charge seems to be higher then the older models.
So a LiFePO4 12.8V battery that works for a 2013 model may not work on 2016 model and up.

The problem is finding a LiFePO4 12.8V that have a BMS that will handle the A on 2016 and newer.

(With this said, I have not a clue what the new Leafs do when it comes to this.

We are talking about 140A and more...

But if your LiFePO4 12.8V battery dont have a BMS, no problem. Until the cells are so unbalanced/mistreaded that the battery gives up the spirit...

I am currently waiting for my lithium cells for the permanent battery I will install, there will be no BMS, and full charge to -40°C.

Also it seems like the voltage and current that shows in Leaf Spy PRO does not correspond to the actual readings that I get in my BMS.
I dont know why, maybe its because of different measure points...
Example: When its 24A draw because of the AC its on, Leaf Spy Pro reports 0A. Also wrong voltage.
When the charge is 84A, Leaf Spy Pro reports 23A.

I will check this out. :)

I don't know what you are using for BMS, but LEAF Spy displays the 12V system bus voltage and the current actually flowing into (positive) or out of (negative) the 12V battery. The current sensor is located near the negative battery terminal so it does not measure the output of the DC-DC converter. In my experience, the voltage displayed by LEAF Spy is within 0.5 volt of measurements made at the battery terminals with an accurate digital multimeter.
 
BluetoothMonster said:
Also it seems like the voltage and current that shows in Leaf Spy PRO does not correspond to the actual readings that I get in my BMS.
I dont know why, maybe its because of different measure points...
Example: When its 24A draw because of the AC its on, Leaf Spy Pro reports 0A. Also wrong voltage.
When the charge is 84A, Leaf Spy Pro reports 23A.

I will check this out. :)

Yes, I've seen this occur. As long as you're measuring the battery current thru the negative battery lead, whether using an
in-line meter or a clamp-on meter, your measurement should be correct. Remember, LS only displays what the BMS hex data
provides of some value, i.e. it doesn't actually perform the test.
 
I checked the electrolyte levels in my 2018 Leaf 12 volt battery for the first time and added less than an ounce of distilled water to each cell, charged it at the 2 Amp rate with my charger, and it measures 13.06 V.
I won't worry about replacing it for another few years.
The car is only used for trips normally less than 30 miles around town during the day so there probably isn't much stress on the battery.
 
Bouldergramp said:
I checked the electrolyte levels in my 2018 Leaf 12 volt battery for the first time and added less than an ounce of distilled water to each cell, charged it at the 2 Amp rate with my charger, and it measures 13.06 V.
I won't worry about replacing it for another few years.
The car is only used for trips normally less than 30 miles around town during the day so there probably isn't much stress on the battery.

On my 2013 Leaf, the original battery lasted 9 years! Never had to use an external charger.
 
Thanks for the reply. I keep reading all the horror stories on this forum about the problems 12 V battery failures cause. I was considering replacing the battery since the ones in my old cars usually lasted 4 years or so. It wasn't obvious the electrolyte filler caps were removable until I looked more closely.
 
I have had a problem with the 12v battery going dead and I did some experimentation. It seems at least in my case, the battery 12v battery starts discharging if the 110 volt charger is plugged in and cannot charge for some reason.for instance I had the hood open and a battery monitor connected to the 12v battery. When I plugged in the charge cable the 12v battery began to drain quite rapidly. Another time I had the hood closed and the battery monitor connected and when I plugged in the charger it seemed to be charging and the 12v battery was fine, but after a few minutes I discovered the big battery quit charging and the 12v battery began to discharge. I suspect an issue with the 110v charge cable.
 
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