GRA
Posts: 13953
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Kia EV6

WetEV wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 8:57 pm Sage is correct. Variability in traffic speeds and winds is often far larger impact on range than running the AC.

Which isn't relevant to the point I was making. The car's range algorithm instantaneously calculated turning on the A/C instead of just using the fan will lose 5-8% of range, despite the conditions being about as economical as possible, i.e. Eco mode, Driver-only, and in ambient temps only a bit higher than the A/C was set, while in steady-state conditions. So, either the people who wrote the range algorithm and/or the engineers who spec'd and measured the A/C's energy usage and supplied that info to the software people are incompetent, or turning on the A/C will decrease the range on an easy road trip leg by at least 5%, with even greater % range loss in less benign conditions. Which do you think is the case?
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.
SageBrush
Posts: 7520
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: NM

Re: Kia EV6

GRA wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 4:33 pm You're entitled to your opinion.
If I tell you that 1 + 1 does not equal 3, is that an opinion ?
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought Jan 2017 from N. Cal @ 90% SOH
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
SOL0 7/2022 @ 83% SOH
GRA
Posts: 13953
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Kia EV6

SageBrush wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 2:15 am
GRA wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 4:33 pm You're entitled to your opinion.
If I tell you that 1 + 1 does not equal 3, is that an opinion ?
Not if it's backed up by evidence. I've provided such showing the amount the DTE drops instantaneously when switching between fan-only and A/C, AOTBE (which is the point at issue). The dispute is over how much effect. Now, the Niro's software estimates 5-8% range loss in the conditions I experienced and described in that trip,. Do you believe that estimate is incorrect?

I saw DTE range reductions (but didn't record them, so can't give % figures) for the EV6 and Ioniq 5 in different but very similar conditions on those two trips, and the EV6, which should have gone further/used less battery than the Ioniq 5 AOTBE, used more while using A/C. It's your contention that can be explained by differences in conditions with A/C having only a minor effect, and it's mine that A/C has a much larger effect than the varying conditions did. Feel free to provide evidence backing your opinion.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.
DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 16146
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 16 Nov 2019
Leaf Number: 319862
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: Kia EV6

GRA wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 9:44 pm
WetEV wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 8:57 pm Sage is correct. Variability in traffic speeds and winds is often far larger impact on range than running the AC.

Which isn't relevant to the point I was making. The car's range algorithm instantaneously calculated turning on the A/C instead of just using the fan will lose 5-8% of range, despite the conditions being about as economical as possible, i.e. Eco mode, Driver-only, and in ambient temps only a bit higher than the A/C was set, while in steady-state conditions. So, either the people who wrote the range algorithm and/or the engineers who spec'd and measured the A/C's energy usage and supplied that info to the software people are incompetent, or turning on the A/C will decrease the range on an easy road trip leg by at least 5%, with even greater % range loss in less benign conditions. Which do you think is the case?
You are putting way too much stock in the GOM. All EVs do the same and I have yet to see one of mine come anywhere near the range loss the GOM predicts when using A/C.

So using a worst case scenario is only protecting the driver? Preventing them from possibly being stranded? Well, I drove from Salem to Olympia in 100º heat last August and the A/C hit was nowhere near what the GOM predicted when I turned it on at 90% SOC. Reality says too many other variables to accurately say what the AC took but in my guesstimation, was under half.
2011 SL; 44,598 mi, 87% SOH. 2013 S; 44,840 mi, 91% SOH. 2016 S30; 29,413 mi, 99% SOH. 2018 S; 25,185 mi, SOH 92.23%. 2019 S Plus; 37,001 mi, 90.19% SOH
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
GRA
Posts: 13953
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Kia EV6

DaveinOlyWA wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 10:09 am
GRA wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 9:44 pm
WetEV wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 8:57 pm Sage is correct. Variability in traffic speeds and winds is often far larger impact on range than running the AC.

Which isn't relevant to the point I was making. The car's range algorithm instantaneously calculated turning on the A/C instead of just using the fan will lose 5-8% of range, despite the conditions being about as economical as possible, i.e. Eco mode, Driver-only, and in ambient temps only a bit higher than the A/C was set, while in steady-state conditions. So, either the people who wrote the range algorithm and/or the engineers who spec'd and measured the A/C's energy usage and supplied that info to the software people are incompetent, or turning on the A/C will decrease the range on an easy road trip leg by at least 5%, with even greater % range loss in less benign conditions. Which do you think is the case?
You are putting way too much stock in the GOM. All EVs do the same and I have yet to see one of mine come anywhere near the range loss the GOM predicts when using A/C.

So using a worst case scenario is only protecting the driver? Preventing them from possibly being stranded? Well, I drove from Salem to Olympia in 100º heat last August and the A/C hit was nowhere near what the GOM predicted when I turned it on at 90% SOC. Reality says too many other variables to accurately say what the AC took but in my guesstimation, was under half.

I would love to see all GoMs use a very conservative calc to protect the driver from getting stranded, so that everyone knows they can do at least that. Unfortunately, commercial pressure (to show more range) may prevent that, which is why I'd like to see it mandated in the same way that speedometers are allowed to read high but not low. I kind of like the Bolt's approach, showing max./avg./min. DTE, and leaving it up to the driver to decide which best reflects their usage/willingness to accept risk. Personally I'm not going to rely on any car's calcs, but will base my own decisions on range and where I need to charge on battery SoC (assuming I've developed trust in the accuracy of that reading) and my own experience in that car in similar conditions, plus a reserve inversely-sized to the density and reliability of the charging infrastructure, plus the likely variability of the weather. Sounds like you do much the same.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.
DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 16146
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 16 Nov 2019
Leaf Number: 319862
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: Kia EV6

GRA wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 10:40 am

I would love to see all GoMs use a very conservative calc to protect the driver from getting stranded, so that everyone knows they can do at least that. Unfortunately, commercial pressure (to show more range) may prevent that, which is why I'd like to see it mandated in the same way that speedometers are allowed to read high but not low. I kind of like the Bolt's approach, showing max./avg./min. DTE, and leaving it up to the driver to decide which best reflects their usage/willingness to accept risk. Personally I'm not going to rely on any car's calcs, but will base my own decisions on range and where I need to charge on battery SoC (assuming I've developed trust in the accuracy of that reading) and my own experience in that car in similar conditions, plus a reserve inversely-sized to the density and reliability of the charging infrastructure, plus the likely variability of the weather. Sounds like you do much the same.
Well, I have the advantage of LEAF Spy so my task is quite easy. Several times, I have passed stations with ZERO SOC on the dash for a better station down the road that had preferred amenities; something people think I am crazy for doing. Personally I think people who stop at 10% SOC at a place they don't like is craziness but it is how many people roll. They are risk adverse while I am simply unaware risk exists. ;)
2011 SL; 44,598 mi, 87% SOH. 2013 S; 44,840 mi, 91% SOH. 2016 S30; 29,413 mi, 99% SOH. 2018 S; 25,185 mi, SOH 92.23%. 2019 S Plus; 37,001 mi, 90.19% SOH
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
GRA
Posts: 13953
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Kia EV6

DaveinOlyWA wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 10:51 am
GRA wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 10:40 am

I would love to see all GoMs use a very conservative calc to protect the driver from getting stranded, so that everyone knows they can do at least that. Unfortunately, commercial pressure (to show more range) may prevent that, which is why I'd like to see it mandated in the same way that speedometers are allowed to read high but not low. I kind of like the Bolt's approach, showing max./avg./min. DTE, and leaving it up to the driver to decide which best reflects their usage/willingness to accept risk. Personally I'm not going to rely on any car's calcs, but will base my own decisions on range and where I need to charge on battery SoC (assuming I've developed trust in the accuracy of that reading) and my own experience in that car in similar conditions, plus a reserve inversely-sized to the density and reliability of the charging infrastructure, plus the likely variability of the weather. Sounds like you do much the same.
Well, I have the advantage of LEAF Spy so my task is quite easy. Several times, I have passed stations with ZERO SOC on the dash for a better station down the road that had preferred amenities; something people think I am crazy for doing. Personally I think people who stop at 10% SOC at a place they don't like is craziness but it is how many people roll. They are risk adverse while I am simply unaware risk exists. ;)

I suspect it depends on the level of risk. Run out of charge in an area with lots of chargers and no problem getting in touch, and you're just facing a short tow. OTOH, taking a chance on being stranded at a trailhead 25 miles off-pavement where you're unlikely to see anyone else for day(s), where there's no cell-service and where you may have trouble finding a tow truck even willing to come out where you are, or charge an arm and a leg if they will, and your awareness of the risk is likely to be more acute! :D

There's a reason I do such trips (in an ICE) with a full-size spare, jack and jack base (to spread the weight on soft ground) and tire iron, plus jumper cables, tools etc. A BEV now means I've got two more factors (less range, especially in bad weather) potential failure (inadequate and unreliable charging infrastructure) to add to my risk awareness. Besides, I'm an old boy scout, so leaving it to luck isn't an option ;)
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.
SageBrush
Posts: 7520
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: NM

Re: Kia EV6

GRA wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 8:46 am
SageBrush wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 2:15 am
GRA wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 4:33 pm You're entitled to your opinion.
If I tell you that 1 + 1 does not equal 3, is that an opinion ?
Not if it's backed up by evidence. I've provided such showing the amount the DTE drops instantaneously when switching between fan-only and A/C, AOTBE (which is the point at issue).
Is Physics evidence in your world ?

But to you observation, the basic problem is that A/C power draw is high for a couple of minutes and then drops 50 - 70% to maintain a steady-state. Moreover, the A/C power draw is weighted by the consumption of the recent past and since the last charge, itself proprietary for each manufacturer.

You conclusion is hopeless
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought Jan 2017 from N. Cal @ 90% SOH
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
SOL0 7/2022 @ 83% SOH
GRA
Posts: 13953
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Kia EV6

SageBrush wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 2:04 pm
GRA wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 8:46 am
SageBrush wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 2:15 am

If I tell you that 1 + 1 does not equal 3, is that an opinion ?
Not if it's backed up by evidence. I've provided such showing the amount the DTE drops instantaneously when switching between fan-only and A/C, AOTBE (which is the point at issue).
Is Physics evidence in your world ?

But to you observation, the basic problem is that A/C power draw is high for a couple of minutes and then drops 50 - 70% to maintain a steady-state. Moreover, the A/C power draw is weighted by the consumption of the recent past and since the last charge, itself proprietary for each manufacturer.

You conclusion is hopeless
Your point is based on the assumption that the manufacturer's DTE algorithm doesn't take account of the initial higher energy usage when first cooling the car down, before it reduces once the set temp's been achieved, even though they and we are all aware that happens. So please provide evidence that the algorithm ignores that. As I doubt you have access to one of the models I've driven recently, please provide evidence of same for your Model 3, Bolt or whichever car you do have access to. While it doesn't prove the case for any of the cars I've driven, it will at least be proof that some manufacturer's algorithms do indeed ignore the A/C energy drop.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.
SageBrush
Posts: 7520
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: NM

Re: Kia EV6

Now we are back to a li'l physics, and a tad of common sense.

How would the car know how much retained heat is in the car's interior mass ?
Or the angle of radiation ?
Or whether it is night or day ?
Or whether you tinted the windows ?
Or have the windows open ?

In any case, it is your silly conclusions. Defend them if you must.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought Jan 2017 from N. Cal @ 90% SOH
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
SOL0 7/2022 @ 83% SOH

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