LeftieBiker
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Re: Kia Niro BEV

“It also feels more refined and substantial than the Chevrolet Bolt and Nissan Leaf. . . .”
The Bolt I can understand, but the Leaf feels to me like a mini Buick or Camry - but livelier. As for refined, I guess I'd have to drive a Niro to judge that one.
Brilliant Silver 2021 Leaf SV40 W/ Pro Pilot & Protection
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 2 lithium E-bicycles.
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LeftieBiker
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Re: Kia Niro BEV

I've been seeing a TV ad for the Niro and, IIRC, Ionic 5. I don't know if it's dealer produced or a Hyundai official ad, but it lies at one point. "Charges in 30 minutes." No asterisk.
Brilliant Silver 2021 Leaf SV40 W/ Pro Pilot & Protection
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 2 lithium E-bicycles.
BAFX OBDII Dongle
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.
SageBrush
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Re: Kia Niro BEV

LeftieBiker wrote: Fri Jun 10, 2022 4:08 am I've been seeing a TV ad for the Niro and, IIRC, Ionic 5. I don't know if it's dealer produced or a Hyundai official ad, but it lies at one point. "Charges in 30 minutes." No asterisk.
It also charges in 3 seconds.
Every charging episode is its own snowflake

Start SoC ?
End SoC ?
Pack temperature ?
Pre-conditioning ?
Charger ?

Particularly due to the effect of pack temperature on the charging, marketing is going to own this stat and turn it into BS. Hyundai has a solid history of lying about these things but I doubt that is the case here. They just advertise an ideal case. The Gov could force them to include " in as little as" in their claim for all the good it would do.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought Jan 2017 from N. Cal @ 90% SOH
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
SOL0 7/2022 @ 83% SOH
cwerdna
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Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: Kia Niro BEV

Re: redesign/significant refresh of all 3 Niros (hybrid, PHEV and EV) for MY 2023, there was https://www.greencarreports.com/news/11 ... iew-photos and https://www.edmunds.com/car-news/2023-k ... rging.html.

The 11 kW OBC is an improvement vs. the BEV's current 7.x kW OBC although that won't help at most public J1772 charging.

If the DC FC rate is really a max of 85 kW, that's an improvement over current gen but not by much and dusted by EV6 and Ioniq 5. Perhaps HyunKia is aiming for intentional market and pricing segmentation?

'22 Niro EV
'19 Bolt Premier (bought back by GM)
'13 Leaf SV w/premium (former)
'13 Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium (lease over)

Please don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.
SageBrush
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Re: Kia Niro BEV

I'm getting petty in my old age. I find the black stripe on the side at the end of car remarkably off-putting. Did every car have an accident in the factory and get repaired with unpainted spare parts ?

Addendum: If I am reading right, the rear panel can be ordered in the same color as the rest of the car. <<Phew>>
Now I can keep reading without a feeling of dread.

The 85 kW peak charging works out to ~ 230 Amps. I won't be surprised if the car can manage 70 kW average between low SoC and 75%. Certainly a substantial upgrade over the likes of LEAF or Bolt. The review makes it sound like battery pack pre-conditioning will be available, but only in the more expensive trims. That sucks.

So far I only have two gripes:
1. Turning pre-conditioning into an expensive feature
2. The 0.29 Cd. It is a trade-off for a more functional hatch and better visibility, but it is going to be a severe knock down of the range at the speeds Americans drive on trips.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought Jan 2017 from N. Cal @ 90% SOH
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
SOL0 7/2022 @ 83% SOH
GRA
Posts: 13960
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Kia Niro BEV

Rented a 2022 Niro EX BEV on Turo from the 14th-17th, and drove it on my usual trip up over Tioga pass to 395. I like the car a lot, and if it offered AWD and FC'd faster I'd get one. Engadget described it as "relentlessly sensible": I concur, and appreciate cars like that (my Forester being another example). I might even be willing to forgo AWD for a lease, but the charge rate . . .

Compared to the Ioniq 5 and EV6 which I'd driven on this trip over the past month or so, the Niro has the best all-around driver visibility, although forward vis. just to the right is a bit impeded by the mirror and I guess the radar or some other sensor housing at the top of the windshield if you're my height (6'0") or taller, unless you have the seat way down.

Rear quarter vis is good and the rear center armrest is low profile, and when fully retracted no higher than the rear window wiper base (which, unlike the other two cars, the Niro has), so no need to remove it. The rear outside armrests block the rear view a bit at the corners but I didn't feel it was a problem, and both are removable in any case.

The car's much more the size I want, 172.2" long (my Forester's 175.2"; the 2023 Niro will be 174" or so, gaining a bit of rear pax and cargo volume over the earlier gen.) vs. the ~182-184" of the Ioniq 5/EV6. I could sit behind myself, although my knees were kind of high owing to a lack of toe room under the front seat, at least with the seat all the way down.

Cargo and sleeping.

The seats-up rear cargo area is just long enough to take a big backpack lengthwise (and two side-by-side), although if it/they are full you might have to remove some stuff from the top of the pack to get it to fit under the slope of the rear seat backs. I didn't have to, but my pack wasn't fully loaded. Stacking packs on top of each other might well extend above the top of the seat back, but I didn't try it.The need to carry 4 or 5 packs plus the same # of people isn't an issue for me these days, although it used to be in my scoutmaster days. The Niro's about 3" wider between the wheel wells (41.5", at least 48" and maybe 50" max. width above them) than my Forester and while I didn't try this, with the seats down two 20" wide sleeping pads will fit side-by-side in back - see the pic and description at
https://jenzach.us/2021/11/30/jhodgdon/ ... rip-notes/

Other cargo area dimensions:

Base of seat to rear hatch, corner/center: 28.5"/30".
Top of seat to rear hatch, corner/center: 20"/23".
Seat base to top: 18".

I tried to sleep along the centerline of the car with my head on the front seat armrest as I do in my Forester, and like the EV6 there isn't enough support for your neck and shoulders if you're over maybe 5'6" and want to sleep stretched out on your back. Using the rear center armrest for support didn't work as the gap was too long, plus it kept falling out of the seat top as it wouldn't lock when extended that far. I spent much of the night lying awake, mentally designing a folding neck/shoulder support that would rest on the armrest and on top of the folded seat backs. Unfortunately, using my cooler on the floor and sleeping off to one side for support as shown above only occurred to me about 4 a.m., at which point given I needed to get up in a couple of hours anyway (and can't hear alarms) it didn't seem worth it to get semi-dressed so I could get out and retrieve the cooler from the front seat to use it. So I didn't get to try it myself, although I'm sure it would work.

Interior lighting is mostly good, real physical switches. The cargo area light is about as useless as in the other two Korean cars being low on the right rear wall, but the rear pax. lights do provide some light for the cargo area so it's not as bad as the others.

I'm almost certain that if you remove the foam insert from the storage well under the cargo floor you can carry a compact and maybe even a full-size spare there, as it appears to be shaped to do just that. The full size tire/wheel measured about 26" x 9", and that's about the dimensions of the well, which is cylindrical. IDK if the 2023s will retain this space, but it's worth trying it out full-scale at a dealership if that matters to you as it does me - I had a dealer pull a wheel and tire off so I could see if it fit standing up along the left rear wall before I bought my first Subie.

BTW, given its height and ground clearance (61.8"/6.1"), AFAIC the Niro's a wagon or hatch rather than a CUV, which is fine by me.

Controls and displays. Hallelujah! Physical, dedicated HVAC buttons on their own dedicated panel! The only semi-odd thing is that when you adjust the fan the speed is shown on the touchscreen (as is the temp setting), rather than on the rotary switch itself. Sadly, while the 2023 will be a useful bit longer with more cargo area, it uses the same touch-sensitive dual-mode HVAC/Infotainment switches as the EV6. The latter's better than the Ioniq 5 (everything other than fan on the touchscreen in that), but that's a low bar.

Other driving controls are good, bar the driving mode switch which is on the center console rather than under one of the steering wheel arms. Given how rarely most people would use it that's unlikely to be an issue. Other than that it's all dedicated physical switches and buttons. Also, I'm still not a fan of the rotary-disc gear selector on the center console vs. a steering column stalk for space reasons, but it works fine, and is tilted toward you a bit rather than lying flat as in the EV6, so easier to read IMO.

One oddity of the driver's display is that the speedometer readout is on the right rather than the left, for no obvious reason. Since it's all digital you'd think being able to switch the speed and DTE/capacity displays left to right, so that it's be more like the speedo left/tach etc. right displays in most cars in the U.S. market at least, would be easy.

Comfort and Convenience.

The Niro EX is refreshingly free of most of the IMO unnecessary, expensive and unreliable power and luxury options that its corporate siblings and most new cars seem to be loaded with, e.g. the door handles aren't flush let alone power-extending, so if there's ice in the gaps you can break it and open the door just by grabbing the handle and pulling it. The rear view mirror dimmer is a manual lever too. About the only things it has that I could do without are the power driver's seat, and a rear hatch that while not power appears to use an electric switch/latch. Oh, and power windows, but I can't remember when I last saw a U.S.-market car for sale that even offered manual windows.

The EX Premium adds a sunroof and a few other things, none of which I want or in most cases need bar the cargo cover.

Charging.

This car's major short-coming, especially after I'd driven its bigger & more importantly much faster charging siblings, although its front near-center chargeport rather than their rear corner-mounted port is much preferred. Max. charge rate I saw was 74kW, in line with the 77-78 kW max. reported by other sites, and my charge curves were similar. It'll charge at or above 70kW up to 50-55% then drops to around 57-59kW up to about 72-73% then drops rapidly to about 37-38kW at 75%, drops to 23-26kW at 80% which it can maintain up to about 90%, then drops to 9kW there. I've got records of every 5 or 10% over several FCs, but suffice it to say that a 20-80% charge is going to take you 43 minutes or more; continuing on to 90% will add another 16-23 minutes. The 2023 is supposed to have a peak rate of 85kW, but this 10% increase in max rate isn't going to make much difference in time unless it's accompanied by a much higher average rate across the charge curve, to 80% or higher.

I've said before that I believe a max. rate of at least 1.5C and average of at least 1C is the minimum going forward to be mainstream acceptable for road trips, and everything I saw on this trip just strengthened that view. For comparison, the EV6 was still charging at 153kW on a 350kW charger at 80%, and 102kW @ 80% on a 150kW charger, far beyond what the extra 21% of pack capacity alone would allow.

Safety.

It comes with all the current safety features, including those that you have to pay extra for in some other BEVs. While I won't use the lane keeping and other Level 2 DAS features, blind spot, rear cross-traffic etc. warnings all worked, as did ACC. One feature I thought the Ioniq 5/EV6 did better was the blindspot visual warning. On those cars it's just an emergency yellow triangle on the mirror, easy to see. On the Niro it's broken up into a small overhead car silhouette, then the front half of another small car silhouette located to the rear quarter, with a couple of arcs indicating a radar or maybe Lidar signal traveling from the front car to the other. This is smaller, less bright and harder to see than the triangle, and is needless complication - do we really need to see a tiny graphic display of the two cars and the signal traveling between them, so we don't change lanes?

Driving.

Liked it. The ride's much better on rough pavement than the Bolt I drove a couple of years ago, and while it maybe doesn't feel so taut as that when pushed, it's still fun to drive. Accel is ample, 0-60 in 6.2 sec. and passing wasn't a problem either. I used the regen paddles frequently when hustling it or descending, although my memory of the Bolt is that its D+B w/w.o. the paddle was a bit better, but that was my first experience using regen paddles so my memory may be off. FWIW, IEVS' Tom Moloughney also likes the Bolt's regen controls the best - see his review of a 2019 Niro EV here:

https://insideevs.com/reviews/353019/ki ... st-review/

AFAICT there was no difference in max. power available between Eco and Normal modes, just changes to pedal mapping. AFAIR I didn't try Sport mode,although I might have used it while hauling up to Sonora Pass. I'm no longer capable of comparing or talking about road and wind noise given that my hearing's all artificial now and I usually drive with my hearing aids turned off in any case, but other reviews find it to be quieter than many of its BEV competitors.

One thing this car lacked compared to its siblings was true one-pedal driving, what Kia/Hyundai are calling i-Pedal. The Niro allows you to choose from Level 0-3 regen, but the latter won't bring you to a full stop so you have to use the brake for the last little bit of decel or else grab and hold the left regen paddle, which I usually forgot I needed to do and had to hastily grab for it. I imagine the 2023 will add Level 4/i-Pedal regen, as its bigger siblings have.

Range.

The highest number I saw on the DTE display was 265 miles @ 91% SoC, which was as high as I charged it. EPA range is 239 miles, and will apparently increase to 253 on the 2023. For me, I'd accept the lower range for the better switches. although I'd obviously prefer both. Driving it from home (90%/256 miles DTE/OAT 74 deg. F.) the 124.5 miles/2,900' el. gain to Buck Meadows, Eco mode, Driver- and fan-only HVAC took 2:31, about half an hour less than it took me in the EV6 owing to lighter traffic that allowed higher speeds, arriving at 41%/109 mi. DTE/3.8 mi. per kWh avg./75 deg. F., so used 49% SoC/147 DTE miles. Highest air temp enroute was only 81 deg., so 15 - 20 deg. cooler than my trips in August. I used ACC most of the time, set. to 75 mph at most, but actual speeds most of the way were well under that.

Charging from 41-90% at Buck Meadows took 46 minutes, and I took 35.7kWh with the DTE reading 255 miles/75 deg. F. when finished.

The 67.4 miles/6,900' el. gain from Buck Meadows to Tioga Pass took 1:31 and dropped the battery to 55%/140 DTE/3.3 mi. per kWh avg./47 deg. F., so used 35% SoC/115 DTE miles. I wasn't in any particular hurry so just used the cruise control and let it pace the car in front much of the way, although I did do some passing.

The 12.6 mile/3,160' descent down to the L2 chargers in Gus Hess park in Lee Vining took 17 minutes and boosted the above numbers to 58%/158 miles DTE/3.7 mi. per kWh avg./64 deg. F.

So for the 204.5 miles/net. el. gain of 6,660 feet, I used a total of 81% SoC with a total time enroute of 5:12. Driving time was 55-60 minutes less, so maybe 4:15. In an ICE with a 7-10 minute stop for gas along the way (because it's cheaper out in the valley, not because I need it), I can reach Lee Vining in about 4 hours total, so about a 45 to 60 minute penalty owing to DCFCing, the rest due to heavier traffic on this trip than when I normally drive it. That's barely tolerable for a weekend trip with no more than one FC each way, but I also charged L2 in Lee Vining twice during the trip for 2:14 and 1:22, to boost my reserves and allow me to pass any chargers I couldn't use later. You could subtract an hour from each of those stops if I was having a meal, but that's making a virtue out of a necessity - if I've got to stop for 45 minutes to an hour and I could eat, then I might as well have a meal there so as not to delay the trip even more. But you can't/don't want to be doing that every 1.5-2.5 hours, which is about what all the 200-300 mile BEVs can realistically manage at freeway cruising speeds.

Coming back from Bridgeport (80% SoC/217 mi. DTE/ 72 deg./6,483') the 199 miles/~6,360' net el. loss to the DCFC two miles from home, with the long descent from Sonora Pass (9,624') I was able to arrive with 20% SoC/61 miles DTE/67 deg. F., again Eco mode, Driver- and fan-only, and trying to see how far I could coast and regen without using any battery. In compensation for that, from about 8-10 miles west of Sonora Junction (108/395) up to the Pass I was hauling, partly because I'd done so in the Bolt and wanted to compare, and also because I was tired of driving slowly behind long lines of cars - traffic was almost non-existent. I suspect the two extremes more or less cancelled out as far as net energy usage went.

If anyone has any questions,I'll be happy to try and answer them, and I hope cwerdna will chime in with any comments he may have since he owns a 2022 Niro EV.
Last edited by GRA on Sun Sep 25, 2022 11:57 pm, edited 5 times in total.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.
cwerdna
Posts: 13169
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:31 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Jul 2013
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: Kia Niro BEV

My '22 Niro EV is actually leased. Lease ends near the end Jan 2025.

If the new and used car situation is still nutty at that time and the Niro EV is reasonably reliable for me and in CR, there is the possibility I might buy it at lease end.

Mine is the base trim (EX) w/no options.

'22 Niro EV
'19 Bolt Premier (bought back by GM)
'13 Leaf SV w/premium (former)
'13 Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium (lease over)

Please don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.
GRA
Posts: 13960
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Kia Niro BEV

cwerdna wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 11:16 pm My '22 Niro EV is actually leased. Lease ends near the end Jan 2025.

If the new and used car situation is still nutty at that time and the Niro EV is reasonably reliable for me and in CR, there is the possibility I might buy it at lease end.

Mine is the base trim (EX) w/no options.
Thanks. Since you've had it long enough for the 'new car halo' effect to wear off, any additional likes/dislikes/corrections you'd care to add?
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.
cwerdna
Posts: 13169
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:31 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Jul 2013
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: Kia Niro BEV

Will try to write more later.
GRA wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 4:08 pm One oddity of the driver's display is that the speedometer readout is on the right rather than the left, for no obvious reason. Since it's all digital you'd think being able to switch the speed and DTE/capacity displays left to right, so that it's be more like the speedo left/tach etc. right displays in most cars in the U.S. market at least, would be easy.
I've never heard of that before. I've never noticed any uniformity or convention. Speedo is also on the right side of gen 2 Leaf.

FWIW, there are numerous cars where the speedo is on the right or shifted towards the right, or actually way to the right of the driver ('22 Prius or center of the dash like the Model 3, Y, Saturn Ion, Toyota Echo, Prius v wagon).

Just for kicks, I looked at the manuals for some previous cars I'd had besides my former 06 Prius.
02 Maxima: speedo left, tach right
04 350Z: tach middle, speedo right
07 Altima Hybrid (not mine, but my mom's): speedo middle, hybrid power meter (doesn't have a tach) left

I picked a GM car out of the blue and found https://cars.usnews.com/cars-trucks/che ... nt-cluster: tach left, speedo right
I picked a Honda out of the blue, a 96 Accord: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mKHA3KaI8_M: tach left, speedo right

https://www.curbsideclassic.com/blog/cc ... ot-houses/ - '91 Camry - had one of these before: tach left, speedo right.
https://consumerguide.com/used/1992-96-toyota-camry/ - '96 Camry - my mom had one. Same as '91 Camry.

'22 Niro EV
'19 Bolt Premier (bought back by GM)
'13 Leaf SV w/premium (former)
'13 Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium (lease over)

Please don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.
GRA
Posts: 13960
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Kia Niro BEV

cwerdna wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 2:33 am Will try to write more later.
GRA wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 4:08 pm One oddity of the driver's display is that the speedometer readout is on the right rather than the left, for no obvious reason. Since it's all digital you'd think being able to switch the speed and DTE/capacity displays left to right, so that it's be more like the speedo left/tach etc. right displays in most cars in the U.S. market at least, would be easy.
I've never heard of that before. I've never noticed any uniformity or convention. Speedo is also on the right side of gen 2 Leaf.

FWIW, there are numerous cars where the speedo is on the right or shifted towards the right, or actually way to the right of the driver ('22 Prius or center of the dash like the Model 3, Y, Saturn Ion, Toyota Echo, Prius v wagon).

Just for kicks, I looked at the manuals for some previous cars I'd had besides my former 06 Prius.
02 Maxima: speedo left, tach right
04 350Z: tach middle, speedo right
07 Altima Hybrid (not mine, but my mom's): speedo middle, hybrid power meter (doesn't have a tach) left

I picked a GM car out of the blue and found https://cars.usnews.com/cars-trucks/che ... nt-cluster: tach left, speedo right
I picked a Honda out of the blue, a 96 Accord: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mKHA3KaI8_M: tach left, speedo right

https://www.curbsideclassic.com/blog/cc ... ot-houses/ - '91 Camry - had one of these before: tach left, speedo right.
https://consumerguide.com/used/1992-96-toyota-camry/ - '96 Camry - my mom had one. Same as '91 Camry.
H'mm, weird. AFAIR speedo left/tach right was the standard here, at least in the pre-digital display age i.e. 20th century (there were a few digital dashes available then but they were very much a minority and largely limited to Japanese cars; their gimmick factor seemed to be more popular in the Japanese home market). I wonder if this was originally a right-hand vs. left-hand drive thing, as all the cars you mention other than Cruze (and Teslas, which don't count) are Japanese. My 1969 Datsun 2000 showed its RHD origins because the turn signal stalk was on the right, but the speedo and tach were left/right. The 240Z was also speedo left and I think that carried through on the 260/280/300Zs, but I don't believe I ever drove any of those later models so can't say for sure.

There were a few oddballs like the original Mini with a center of the dash mounted speedo (and no tach, as prior to the Cooper it was just a two-box economy car with limited performance), but AFAIA that was done to keep costs down, as that way they didn't have to have different dashes for LHD vs. RHD markets; only later did that become a Mini meme that was carried on in (BMW) Minis.

IDK whether it was a requirement, more likely just a convention, but although I've owned only four cars I've driven far more, and in the pre-2000 era I don't remember any with a mechanical speedo and tach that had the tach on the left, whether Japanese, European or U.S. makes. But then tachs only came on performance models, usually sticks, and even they often didn't have them standard prior to maybe the '80s. Of course, It's possible my memory is faulty, or I just didn't drive any with the other arrangement.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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