GRA
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Re: Mink hole, like a rat hole but much much nicer

WetEV wrote: Tue Sep 13, 2022 11:54 am
GRA wrote: Tue Sep 13, 2022 10:59 am You ignored all of mine, which is that we're a long way away from mass-market BEVs that will provide ranges comparable to ICEs, or having charging infrastructure that is as dense and reliable as gas stations, or that a lot of people traveling to and staying in national parks don't stay in concessioner lodgings, and the people who don't are often those with the strongest motivation to use ZEVs.
We need as much outside the park FCs and (where possible/allowed) inside the park L1/2 as we can build, ASAP, but FCs are usable by and valuable to _all_ BEV park visitors, and L1/2 only at lodgings isn't.
Nice rant, why did you reply with this rant in this topic, rather than in the right place?
Not a rant, a statement of facts. And why did you reply OT in the EA topic?

Mass market meaning 50% comes after 0.1%, 0.2%, 0.4%, 1%, 2%, 4%, 5.6% market share in Q2 2022, and so on.
Q2 new car sales in CA were over 16% PEV/FCEV, over 27% in the Bay Area. But then their avg. sale price was $66k. vs. an already well beyond mass market avg.price of $48k for ICEs. Good thing we've got all those people working in Silicon Valley and San Francisco who can afford them.

Range may never match ICE ranges, different economics and user experience.
Uh huh, which leaves us with forcing people to buy them if they don't need their needs.

Charging infrastructure is growing, as is the number of BEVs on the road. Will never be as dense as gas stations, different economics and user experience.

Of course it's growing, the issue is whether it's growing fast enough in the right places, and of the right types. Public charging infrastructure is key to mass market viability, especially for those people who'd get the greatest health benefit. See:
Communities of color are
burdened by air pollution but lag in EV adoption; study looks at how to fix this

. . . the study highlighted several issues that might limit EV adoption in communities of color. Home charging is currently the most affordable way to charge an EV, but it's not always possible for renters and residents of multi-family dwellings, Consumer Reports noted. The study recommends specifically boosting charging accessibility for these living situations, as well as increased affordable public charging. . . .
https://www.greencarreports.com/news/11 ... on-study

Charging reliability needs to improve. Score 1 for team GRA. Too bad no one is seriously disputing this, and reliability of stations vary from very good to very bad.

I'm sure you will ignore all these points. I'll try again in advance with bolding.

Mass market meaning 50% comes after 0.1%, 0.2%, 0.4%, 1%, 2%, 4%, 5.6% market share in Q2 2022, and so on.

Range may never match ICE ranges, different economics and user experience. Which you don't understand even when explained as you have your own agenda.

Of course I have my own agenda - who doesn't, including all the other people who won't buy BEVs now because they fail to match their requirements for price, range and charging speed, charging infrastructure and longevity.

Here in California we're simply going to force people to switch from 2035, with the hope that by then tech and infrastructure will have improved to the point that these issues will be eliminated or at least minimized for almost everyone, and we plan to spend a lot of time and tax money to help things along. Here's hoping that comes true.

One of the most important things we're doing in California to help mass-market viability is instituting requirements for both range and battery capacity retention over a longer period of time, which is essential for making BEVs viable for the used car market.

Charging infrastructure is growing, as is the number of BEVs on the road. Will never be as dense as gas stations, different economics and user experience.

Driving a BEV for a long period of time might help. Perhaps you should take a break from replying, lease a BEV, and learn.

Please explain how driving a BEV for a long period will increase its range, charging speed and battery longevity (or the density & reliability of charging infrastructure in places I have traveled to in the past and/or want to travel to now). I could just about live with the Ioniq 5/EV6 for a lease (or at least I could have before they no longer qualified for the federal tax credit and lease prices sky-rocketed), at least for weekend and shorter road trips, say 450 up to _maybe_ 600 miles max/day.

OTOH the Niro BEV, which is far closer to the size and features I want (bar AWD), takes at least three times longer to charge than its bigger siblings, and that's totally unacceptable to me. How is leasing one going to change that - will it magically give me more vacation time, or increase my patience while sitting in places I have no desire to spend time at while waiting for it to charge?

Right now, it looks like my best option is to keep renting BEVs for trips where they're suitable; although the individual trip cost is higher, as long as I don't take them too frequently it's still less expensive than a lease.

I'll keep the ICE for the others, and hopefully in a few years Li-Si, solid-state or what have you will have improved the cars and their prices enough for them to pass the value for money test for me, or FCEVs and their infrastructure will have done so. Until then they remain over-priced cars and (BEVs) lack the capability and longevity I require. Off to do trip prep.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.
WetEV
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Re: Mink hole, like a rat hole but much much nicer

GRA wrote: Tue Sep 13, 2022 12:58 pm
WetEV wrote: Tue Sep 13, 2022 11:54 am Mass market meaning 50% comes after 0.1%, 0.2%, 0.4%, 1%, 2%, 4%, 5.6% market share in Q2 2022, and so on.
Q2 new car sales in CA were over 16% PEV/FCEV, over 27% in the Bay Area. But then their avg. sale price was $66k. vs. an already well beyond mass market avg.price of $48k for ICEs. Good thing we've got all those people working in Silicon Valley and San Francisco who can afford them.
Suppose some new widget came out. Where do you think sales would rise first? Silicon Valley or Tie Siding, Wy?

GRA wrote: Tue Sep 13, 2022 12:58 pm

Uh huh, which leaves us with forcing people to buy them if they don't need their needs.
A big assumption on your part, now isn't that? Or do you understand that only a small minority will find a BEV less attractive than an ICE?

As you seem to be part of that small minority, I'd guess you don't.


Consider that range has a cost, in a BEV, and doesn't in an ICE. If range is free, why not offer as much as almost anyone would want?


BEVs will win the high end first, as BMW, Audi, Rolls Royce, Cadillac and such would like to eat lunch. And not have to watch Tesla eat it in front of them. BEVs have basically already won this market slice. So move on the the very bottom end. Consider the following options, for an basic basic entry level transportation car.
  1. A basic ICE (range 600 miles) for say $15k. Oh, and gasoline, and oil changes and so on.
  • A limited range (25kWh... 80 miles) basic BEV for say $11.2k.
Funds are limited. Less cash, less operating expense, but there is a trade-off of range... If the buyer doesn't absolutely need the range, then the BEV is the clear choice, correct? Why would anyone ever pick the ICE?

Even if some need for longer trips, the choice between cash now and needed to take a 10 minute stop every hour a few times a year is pretty clear, right? Cash now wins. Even if that's a 20 minute stop every hour of driving, like the LEAF.

Sure, need to have at home charging. Perhaps apartment parking lot charging. Perhaps curbside charging. Perhaps driveway charging. Or carport charging. Perhaps even garage charging.

Sure, battery prices need to fall to under $100 per kWh. I'm assuming $50 per kWh, likely not true until the supply chain for BEVs catches up... like in 2030 or so. Battery energy density is projected to double in this time period as well.

  1. A basic ICE (range 600 miles) for say $15k. Oh, and gasoline, and oil changes and so on.
  • A longer range basic BEV (100kWh... 320 miles) for say $15k.
Funds are limited. Same upfront cash, less operating expense, but there is a trade-off of range. Now we are talking about roughly 4 hours of driving. Almost everyone has a lunch stop. Sure, an ICE might be just a little better on long trips, but very marginally so. On the other hand, the BEV wins big at home. Much more convenient, lower operational cost and just plain nicer to drive.

Why would anyone pick the ICE? Only if lots of long distance driving was planned, and very little short distance driving was planned. Like your driving pattern.

GRA wrote: Tue Sep 13, 2022 12:58 pm
WetEV wrote: Tue Sep 13, 2022 11:54 am Charging infrastructure is growing, as is the number of BEVs on the road. Will never be as dense as gas stations, different economics and user experience.

Of course it's growing, the issue is whether it's growing fast enough in the right places, and of the right types. Public charging infrastructure is key to mass market viability, especially for those people who'd get the greatest health benefit. See:
Advancing social policy is a herring. Not sure the color, but I recognize the smell. Basically is not relevant to the market choice between BEV vs ICE.
WetEV
#49
Most everything around here is wet during the rainy season. And the rainy season is long.
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Re: Mink hole, like a rat hole but much much nicer

GRA wrote: Tue Sep 13, 2022 11:48 am
WetEV wrote: Tue Sep 13, 2022 11:29 am Here is a hint.

Rather than worrying about running the AC, find out about the winds first.

Try this for starters:

https://www.windy.com/

Remember that at 75 MPH, a 1 MPH difference in wind speed is as much as running the AC or not.

Again, very little of the trip up was at 75 mph, in fact I only would have hit that during a couple of passes and a brief period on I-205. Traffic was heavy and most of the trip up was at 60 or less, often well less. That's the main reason I hate driving up during the day.

Unfortunately, given the current reservation system just to drive through the park between 6-4 (and the convoying through the one-lane road section at speeds well below the 45 mph limit until 5), I need to be at the entrance as close after 4 p.m. as possible if I want to get to the east side at a halfway reasonable hour.
So exactly what wind speed difference equals the AC at 55 MPH?

About 2 MPH. Would you notice a 2MPH difference in wind speed?

How about 35 MPH? About 5 MPH wind speed.

If you drive really really slow, then AC matters more than wind speed most of the time.
WetEV
#49
Most everything around here is wet during the rainy season. And the rainy season is long.
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Re: Mink hole, like a rat hole but much much nicer

GRA wrote: Tue Sep 13, 2022 10:19 am
WetEV wrote: Sun Sep 04, 2022 8:45 am Wind Beaufort 1-2 covers the range of 1 to 7 MPH. Add calm and Beaufort 3 and that covers 0 to 12 MPH.

A 12 MPH difference in wind speed is much more than enough to make your observations meaningless. Meaningless isn't information.
Been house/dog sitting again so busy and haven't been reading, and heading out of town tomorrow on another trip to the same area in a Niro this time, but wanted to post a short reply. As noted, Force 3 was only the case for an occasional gust. BTW, I'm used to using Beaufort in knots, i.e. 1 = 1-3, 2 = 4-6, 3 = 7-10 etc.
Once again you don't have a good record of wind speed. Can't change that as you didn't measure it.

"Using Beaufort in knots" is like saying "using MPH in furlongs per fortnight". Beaufort scale is a way of measuring wind velocity. Sure, could be translated to knots, MPH, meters per second , but that doesn't change either the wind speed or anything other than the measurement unit.

GRA wrote: Tue Sep 13, 2022 10:19 am
WetEV wrote: Sun Sep 04, 2022 8:45 am Likewise traffic speed. Average doesn't count, the average of speed squared is needed. You can have a low average speed, consisting of 75 MPH for an hour and 5 MPH for an hour, and your energy use will be rather higher than just driving at 40 MPH for the whole trip. Ditto for wind speed. A 20 MPH headwind for half the trip and 20 MPH tailwind for the other half does not average to zero.
I noted that both trips involved average speeds and a mix of speeds that were very similar, somewhat slower than is typical for me In this trip owing to the time I was driving. But I've been making this drive for 45 years now, so I know how long it takes in a variety of conditions as well as when there are any major deviations from same.
Once again you don't have a good log of car speeds for your two trips. If trying to measure something as small as AC use impact on driving, you need to have accurate log of speeds, as the average isn't good enough, the average of air speed squared is needed. Car speed plus wind speed, then square, and record the average.

GRA wrote: Tue Sep 13, 2022 10:19 am
WetEV wrote: Sun Sep 04, 2022 8:45 am Generally, you need more experience than your audience to have useful information to give. You do have more information on the Kia EV6 than I do, so there was some value to what you wrote. But firstly putting a howler comment in on climate control vs range, and then not accepting feedback is annoying. Do feel free to drop being annoying at any time. We will like you more if you do.

I'm curious, just how much of a difference in energy use between two cars with the same battery pack in essentially the same real-world conditions do you think would be significant enough to conclude that A/C vs. fan-only use is reflected by the results, when the car which gets 21% more EPA combined range still manages to uses 2% more energy for the same trip while using A/C than the less-efficient car not using it?
Different EPA tests (2 cycle vs 5 cycle), different aerodynamics, different tires, perhaps different motors and so on.

Consider tire pressure. Did you match the tire pressures?

Consider tire wear. Were the tires equally worn?

Consider types of tires. Were the tires identical brands and models?

And so on.

AC usage has a tiny effect on range. Not zero, sure. But fairly tiny, unless sitting in stopped traffic for hours. Lots of other things usually matter more. Like speed, wind, tire pressure, tire wear, and so on.

GRA wrote: Tue Sep 13, 2022 10:19 am As to your comments about being annoying, were you shaving at the time you wrote them?
I'm being fairly nice to you. You can take the advice or not, your choice.
WetEV
#49
Most everything around here is wet during the rainy season. And the rainy season is long.
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Re: Mink hole, like a rat hole but much much nicer

Took a Niro up on the same route last week. Traffic was lighter so I could drive at higher speeds, although still a fair amount slower than is typical at night. Just to see, checked and recorded GoM ranges fan-only and then A/C several times both ways . I'd done this a few times with the Ioniq and EV6 and saw similar range drops, but didn't record them.

I did this both while the car was underway and also while the car was parked, the latter eliminating any possibility of speed, wind or terrain affecting the results. The range difference varied from 5 miles (~8%) less at 20% SoC (61 miles GoM down to 56, while driving) to 11 miles (~5%) less @ 80% SoC (215 miles down to 204, while parked), with other range losses, as you'd expect, falling in between those two depending on the SoC. So, a minimum 5% decrease per the car's own software.

Note that the hottest OAT experienced on this trip was only 83 deg. F. and most of the time I was driving it was in the low to mid-'70s, and when I flipped the A/C on momentarily (just to check range loss, as I had no need to use A/C) I had the temp set at 72, so considerably less extra energy/range loss for A/C on this trip than would have been the case on the two previous ones, where most of the high-speed portions of the trip were at OATs in the mid to upper '90s, i.e. a greater outside/inside temperature delta.

My conclusion is that 5% is pretty much a floor for A/C vs. fan-only range loss for these cars, which may or not be significant for someone depending on the trip. In the Niro for this outward trip, given the location of the existing chargers and its range it doesn't much matter, nor is it likely to in AWD versions of the Ioniq 5/EV6 (e.g. fan-only in the Ioniq 5 I used 77% to get to Tioga Pass while driving slower than normal), so it's very borderline). OTOH, for the RWD versions of the above two cars which have an extra 36-47 miles of EPA range it could well be the difference between being able to make it un-recharged from home the ~194 miles/9,800' of climb to Tioga Pass, and thus Lee Vining where there are L2 chargers (and hopefully in the not too distant future FCs), using a start SoC of 90% and a reserve of 20% SoC. 70% is the greatest non-emergency SoC range I'd use in a new battery if it were my car, reserving the upper 10% to replace degradation as the car ages over the first few years. I was able to regen 3% on the descent to Lee Vining in all three cars in the prevailing conditions, and worst case I'd at least break even, so as expected Tioga Pass is the critical point.

Coming back in the Niro via 108/Sonora Pass (300' lower) rather than 120/Tioga Pass I was able to make it from the Bridgeport EA @80% un-recharged the 199 miles to the EA chargers two miles from home @20%. The Niro charges a lot slower than the '800V' (697V actual) cars, 16 min. from 80-90% (which would be added to the 32 min. I'd already spent charging from 43-80%) vs. 6-7 min. for the 800V cars ditto (11 min. 43-80%, a couple of minutes more at a 150 vice 350kW charger), so not using A/C would matter for that trip as well if you want to minimize both the number of as well as time spent at charging stops.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.
WetEV
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Re: Mink hole, like a rat hole but much much nicer

GRA wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 12:33 pm Took a Niro up on the same route last week. Traffic was lighter so I could drive at higher speeds, although still a fair amount slower than is typical at night. Just to see, checked and recorded GoM ranges fan-only and then A/C several times both ways . I'd done this a few times with the Ioniq and EV6 and saw similar range drops, but didn't record them.

I did this both while the car was underway and also while the car was parked, the latter eliminating any possibility of speed, wind or terrain affecting the results. The range difference varied from 5 miles (~8%) less at 20% SoC (61 miles GoM down to 56, while driving) to 11 miles (~5%) less @ 80% SoC (215 miles down to 204, while parked), with other range losses, as you'd expect, falling in between those two depending on the SoC. So, a minimum 5% decrease per the car's own software.

Note that the hottest OAT experienced on this trip was only 83 deg. F. and most of the time I was driving it was in the low to mid-'70s, and when I flipped the A/C on momentarily (just to check range loss, as I had no need to use A/C) I had the temp set at 72, so considerably less extra energy/range loss for A/C on this trip than would have been the case on the two previous ones, where most of the high-speed portions of the trip were at OATs in the mid to upper '90s, i.e. a greater outside/inside temperature delta.
Still wrong, but less wrong. I'm happy to see progress, wrong is relative. Maybe if you lease an electric car and drive it a few years you might get even closer to correct. I actually don't know how the GOM calculates range, and how that computation uses climate control energy use, so I can't directly criticize. It isn't public information, and every car is different.

I've learned by experience that the GOM, while useful, is often wrong. @SageBrush seems to have learned something similar. Hmm... I'd bet most long term EV drivers have noticed this.

I suspect that the GOM might be using the current climate energy use, which is much higher just when turned on briefly, rather than a predicted energy use. The GOM might give a different delta answer if you had the AC on, and turn it off briefly. I might try that experiment, if I have a chance.

I seen GOMs do some funny things, like decrease range when going from heater "off" to the heater set at 60F with an OAT of 70F. Zero heat is required, but that impacts the range? Really?? How come? Go figure. It made sense in the 2012 LEAF as heater on meant that the heater tank was being heated, but everything more modern has had a heat pump and/or resistance heat, which are drawing zero power unless actually heating.
GRA wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 12:33 pm My conclusion is that 5% is pretty much a floor for A/C vs. fan-only range loss for these cars,
Consider the impact of vehicle speed. Based on 1 kW climate usage and the LEAF.

At 75 MPH steady, calculated to be 1/75 or less than 1.5%
At 55 MPH steady, calcuated to be 2/55 or less than 4%
At 35 MPH steady, calculated to be 5/35 or less than 15%
At 12 MPH steady, traction power is about the same as climate.

While this calculation isn't exact even for the LEAF, the general trend should be carefully noted. The faster you are driving, the less climate control use matters.

I calculate you were driving at less than 55 MPH average and at more than 35 MPH average to get the answer of 5-8%.

You are not in the 1% crazy early adopters, or even the 5% early adopters. In the first 10% should be available for maybe a few years. Maybe time for a lease?
WetEV
#49
Most everything around here is wet during the rainy season. And the rainy season is long.
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Re: Mink hole, like a rat hole but much much nicer

WetEV wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 8:30 am
GRA wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 12:33 pm Took a Niro up on the same route last week. Traffic was lighter so I could drive at higher speeds, although still a fair amount slower than is typical at night. Just to see, checked and recorded GoM ranges fan-only and then A/C several times both ways . I'd done this a few times with the Ioniq and EV6 and saw similar range drops, but didn't record them.

I did this both while the car was underway and also while the car was parked, the latter eliminating any possibility of speed, wind or terrain affecting the results. The range difference varied from 5 miles (~8%) less at 20% SoC (61 miles GoM down to 56, while driving) to 11 miles (~5%) less @ 80% SoC (215 miles down to 204, while parked), with other range losses, as you'd expect, falling in between those two depending on the SoC. So, a minimum 5% decrease per the car's own software.

Note that the hottest OAT experienced on this trip was only 83 deg. F. and most of the time I was driving it was in the low to mid-'70s, and when I flipped the A/C on momentarily (just to check range loss, as I had no need to use A/C) I had the temp set at 72, so considerably less extra energy/range loss for A/C on this trip than would have been the case on the two previous ones, where most of the high-speed portions of the trip were at OATs in the mid to upper '90s, i.e. a greater outside/inside temperature delta.
Still wrong, but less wrong. I'm happy to see progress, wrong is relative. Maybe if you lease an electric car and drive it a few years you might get even closer to correct. I actually don't know how the GOM calculates range, and how that computation uses climate control energy use, so I can't directly criticize. It isn't public information, and every car is different.

I've learned by experience that the GOM, while useful, is often wrong. @SageBrush seems to have learned something similar. Hmm... I'd bet most long term EV drivers have noticed this.

Of course the GoM is often wrong, it's an instantaneous calculation based on current conditions, which can change radically during the drive. It doesn't take years of experience to figure this out.

I suspect that the GOM might be using the current climate energy use, which is much higher just when turned on briefly, rather than a predicted energy use. The GOM might give a different delta answer if you had the AC on, and turn it off briefly. I might try that experiment, if I have a chance.

That's possible, so please run the experiment and provide the data. I do wonder why, if the engineers just wanted to find a quick and dirty method that wasn't particularly accurate, that they didn't just pick a single (conservative) % to reduce the range by, rather than a varying %.

Next trip I take in one of these or a similar car, assuming it's hot (or cold) enough I'm going to play around with driver-only vs. not to see how much effect that has on the DTE, and maybe Eco vs. Normal as well.

I seen GOMs do some funny things, like decrease range when going from heater "off" to the heater set at 60F with an OAT of 70F. Zero heat is required, but that impacts the range? Really?? How come? Go figure. It made sense in the 2012 LEAF as heater on meant that the heater tank was being heated, but everything more modern has had a heat pump and/or resistance heat, which are drawing zero power unless actually heating.
GRA wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 12:33 pm My conclusion is that 5% is pretty much a floor for A/C vs. fan-only range loss for these cars,
Consider the impact of vehicle speed. Based on 1 kW climate usage and the LEAF.

At 75 MPH steady, calculated to be 1/75 or less than 1.5%
At 55 MPH steady, calcuated to be 2/55 or less than 4%
At 35 MPH steady, calculated to be 5/35 or less than 15%
At 12 MPH steady, traction power is about the same as climate.

While this calculation isn't exact even for the LEAF, the general trend should be carefully noted. The faster you are driving, the less climate control use matters.

I calculate you were driving at less than 55 MPH average and at more than 35 MPH average to get the answer of 5-8%.
Actually, when I checked it (and wasn't stationary) was when I was cruising on the freeway/highway using cruise control in light or no traffic; driving slower on twistier roads and/or with other cars, I wasn't goofing around playing with switches or writing anything down. The 8% loss was one such case, while the 5% loss was while stationary, and I saw numbers in between those in both conditions.
You are not in the 1% crazy early adopters, or even the 5% early adopters. In the first 10% should be available for maybe a few years. Maybe time for a lease?
See the Niro EV topic. Close, but no cigar.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.
WetEV
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Re: Mink hole, like a rat hole but much much nicer

GRA wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 9:04 am
WetEV wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 8:30 am Still wrong, but less wrong. I'm happy to see progress, wrong is relative. Maybe if you lease an electric car and drive it a few years you might get even closer to correct. I actually don't know how the GOM calculates range, and how that computation uses climate control energy use, so I can't directly criticize. It isn't public information, and every car is different.

I've learned by experience that the GOM, while useful, is often wrong. @SageBrush seems to have learned something similar. Hmm... I'd bet most long term EV drivers have noticed this.

Of course the GoM is often wrong, it's an instantaneous calculation based on current conditions, which can change radically during the drive. It doesn't take years of experience to figure this out.
No cigar. No even close. If parked, the GOM doesn't read zero, which it would if the calculation was instantaneous. Try again.

Experience is a good teacher. It is good you are getting a little.

GRA wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 9:04 am
WetEV wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 8:30 am I suspect that the GOM might be using the current climate energy use, which is much higher just when turned on briefly, rather than a predicted energy use. The GOM might give a different delta answer if you had the AC on, and turn it off briefly. I might try that experiment, if I have a chance.
That's possible, so please run the experiment and provide the data. I do wonder why, if the engineers just wanted to find a quick and dirty method that wasn't particularly accurate, that they didn't just pick a single (conservative) % to reduce the range by, rather than a varying %.
The nice thing about good experiments is that others can do them, and in different cars. Looking at the schedule, will be a few weeks before I'm doing a longer drive. Doing it yourself has the side benefit of reducing internet traffic.
WetEV
#49
Most everything around here is wet during the rainy season. And the rainy season is long.
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Re: Mink hole, like a rat hole but much much nicer

WetEV wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 10:14 am
GRA wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 9:04 am
WetEV wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 8:30 am Still wrong, but less wrong. I'm happy to see progress, wrong is relative. Maybe if you lease an electric car and drive it a few years you might get even closer to correct. I actually don't know how the GOM calculates range, and how that computation uses climate control energy use, so I can't directly criticize. It isn't public information, and every car is different.

I've learned by experience that the GOM, while useful, is often wrong. @SageBrush seems to have learned something similar. Hmm... I'd bet most long term EV drivers have noticed this.

Of course the GoM is often wrong, it's an instantaneous calculation based on current conditions, which can change radically during the drive. It doesn't take years of experience to figure this out.
No cigar. No even close. If parked, the GOM doesn't read zero, which it would if the calculation was instantaneous. Try again.

Experience is a good teacher. It is good you are getting a little.
I was trying to take the short approach, but if you insist that I spell it all out, the DTE is based on an instantaneous calc of past driving conditions plus current temps, the length of the past driving window varying from model to model. Since we both know this, how about we skip the kindergarten stuff?
WetEV wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 10:14 am
GRA wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 9:04 am
WetEV wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 8:30 am I suspect that the GOM might be using the current climate energy use, which is much higher just when turned on briefly, rather than a predicted energy use. The GOM might give a different delta answer if you had the AC on, and turn it off briefly. I might try that experiment, if I have a chance.
That's possible, so please run the experiment and provide the data. I do wonder why, if the engineers just wanted to find a quick and dirty method that wasn't particularly accurate, that they didn't just pick a single (conservative) % to reduce the range by, rather than a varying %.
The nice thing about good experiments is that others can do them, and in different cars. Looking at the schedule, will be a few weeks before I'm doing a longer drive. Doing it yourself has the side benefit of reducing internet traffic.
I've driven this route in four different BEVs and posted the results, so feel free to post some of your own on a standard route for you. I had planned to head up again later this week for another trip in either a Mach-E or ID.4, but managed to injure a big toe somehow and have been just lying in bed popping ibuprofen instead, so the next trip will have to wait until I'm not hobbling around. Too bad, as conditions are nice right now, and we're just starting to see fall colors in the eastern Sierra. I couldn't take most of the mountain trips I would have been taking the past two years, partly due to Covid shutdowns but mostly due to wildfire smoke, so I've been anxious to make up the ones I've been missing.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.
WetEV
Posts: 4959
Joined: Fri May 04, 2012 8:25 am
Delivery Date: 16 Feb 2014
Location: Near Seattle, WA

Re: Mink hole, like a rat hole but much much nicer

GRA wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 11:07 am
WetEV wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 10:14 am
GRA wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 9:04 am
Of course the GoM is often wrong, it's an instantaneous calculation based on current conditions, which can change radically during the drive. It doesn't take years of experience to figure this out.
No cigar. No even close. If parked, the GOM doesn't read zero, which it would if the calculation was instantaneous. Try again.

Experience is a good teacher. It is good you are getting a little.
I was trying to take the short approach, but if you insist that I spell it all out, the DTE is based on an instantaneous calc of past driving conditions plus current temps, the length of the past driving window varying from model to model. Since we both know this, how about we skip the kindergarten stuff?
As you insist on arguing every point, why not?

The GOM is a black box. You don't know exactly how the GOM works. I don't know exactly how the GOM in any car does the calculation. Oh, sure, there are guesses. But the actual computations are unknown.

So you rely on a black box that you don't understand to produce an answer. What could possibly go wrong?


One thing about the GOM you don't know is how climate control usage is predicted. I don't either, but before declaring a result maybe more experiments might might give you fewer giggles when you try to teach long time EV drivers how EVs work.

GRA wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 11:07 am I've driven this route in four different BEVs and posted the results, so feel free to post some of your own on a standard route for you.
I have a couple of about 1 mile drives in 70F weather on today's schedule. Doesn't seem hopeful for learning much about the black box called a GOM.
WetEV
#49
Most everything around here is wet during the rainy season. And the rainy season is long.
2012 Leaf SL Red (Totaled)
2014 Leaf SL Red (Sold)
2019 eTron Blue

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