2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

My Nissan Leaf Forum

Help Support My Nissan Leaf Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
Oils4AsphaultOnly said:
Back on topic. The dealership finally came back with an ETA! It'll be another month, because the warranty replacement batteries (~400 of them) are ALL coming in from a factory in Japan!! I hope they didn't deliberately build new 30kwh packs just to satisfy these warranty claims! It'll mean they've met their warranty obligations, but also that I've missed out on the battery lottery. Oh well, can only keep my fingers crossed.

Am I reading this right.... Your dealership has a backlog of 400 warranty replacements?
 
mn4az said:
Oils4AsphaultOnly said:
Back on topic. The dealership finally came back with an ETA! It'll be another month, because the warranty replacement batteries (~400 of them) are ALL coming in from a factory in Japan!! I hope they didn't deliberately build new 30kwh packs just to satisfy these warranty claims! It'll mean they've met their warranty obligations, but also that I've missed out on the battery lottery. Oh well, can only keep my fingers crossed.

Am I reading this right.... Your dealership has a backlog of 400 warranty replacements?

Sorry, I should've typed it out. The dealership contacted Nissan HQ asking about the battery replacement status, and was told that they (Nissan) had ~400 warranty replacement battery packs to build and ship, so it would take ~1 month. This particular dealership had never done a Leaf battery pack replacement (under warranty) before, so I guess the 400 packs is for the entire US (or maybe even globally?).
 
In January 2020 our battery replacement was a first time for the Jackson TN dealership.

Does anyone know if the Smyrna plant in Tennessee is still building the Leaf line?

400 cars in the USA waiting for leaf battery replacement sounds reasonable. I was told the battery for the 40 is was $12,500 00 and the labor was 500 if that is factual or not I do not know but they made a case that I was getting $13,000 of money from their company the corporation. I just got my car back before the lockdown started from the pandemic.
 
Two year update.
Two years since I received new 40 kWh replacement battery for my 2016 Leaf SV.

According to LeafSpy Pro,
I can charge to: 35 kWh
AHr = 105
SOH = 91%
GIDS = 453
Hx = 109%

Odometer 81k miles. I added 10k miles in two years since battery
 
awhile said:
Two year update.
Two years since I received new 40 kWh replacement battery for my 2016 Leaf SV.

According to LeafSpy Pro,
I can charge to: 35 kWh
AHr = 105
SOH = 91%
GIDS = 453
Hx = 109%

Odometer 81k miles. I added 10k miles in two years since battery

Wow! So the new battery is degrading just as quickly as the 30kwh one!?!?!

Did you try to preserve the battery (kept charge level below 80% and above 20%, kept it parked in garage or under shade, no DC fast charges, etc) since getting the new battery?
 
Oils4AsphaultOnly said:
Wow! So the new battery is degrading just as quickly as the 30kwh one!?!?!

Did you try to preserve the battery (kept charge level below 80% and above 20%, kept it parked in garage or under shade, no DC fast charges, etc) since getting the new battery?

Yes to all the above except shade. I park outside in the sun on my white concrete driveway.

I charge at home. I keep vehicle between 20-80% except for the rare case where I need to drive long distance for the day. But at 100% charge it never sits around for more than 8 hours before my trip. I never DC fast charge. Rarely charge anywhere but at home with Level 2 JuiceBox. Temperatures here in coastal San Diego rarely get above 80 degrees, although the past 1 month has been hot and battery temperature stayed in the 80's (battery never got to 90).

But I've been parking it outside in the sun for the two years. I recently just started parking in garage so I will see if that makes a difference.

I have LeafSpy Pro and record data on more than half of my trips, so I have a diary over the years. One year ago I was at 95.6% SOH. I also posted my one year report here.

Looking back at battery temperatures I rarely see it above the high range of 75-85 degrees. It is typically in 60's or 70's and sometimes hits 50's when outside nightly temperature hits 40.

I would like to hear reports on other 2016-2017 model year Leaf with 40 kWh batteries. Is the degradation of 5% per year an outlier?
 
5% annual is within normal limits Since Feb 2020 when we got the 40 kWh pack we have added 16K miles on our 2016 Nissan Leaf SL that is now showing 41K miles total and SOH is 94.95% Typically we loose 0.01% SOH daily when the 12 volt battery is connected which is around 3.65% annually.
SOH held at 94.96% for 30 days but today I closed the 12v cutoff switch and drove down 82% SOC to 55% and SOH dropped from 94.96 to 94.95%.
Our car sets outside but in the shade until 3-4 PM. Seldom does SOC go below 30% and 98% of time i charge to 100%. Fully charged our mV reading drops to the 2mV-4mV range showing good ability to discharge and recharge or flexibility. High battery temperature noted this summer 107F. Air temperature this summer hit 98-103F for about 30 days.
 
GaleHawkins said:
5% annual is within normal limits Since Feb 2020 when we got the 40 kWh pack we have added 16K miles on our 2016 Nissan Leaf SL that is now showing 41K miles total and SOH is 94.95% Typically we loose 0.01% SOH daily when the 12 volt battery is connected which is around 3.65% annually.
SOH held at 94.96% for 30 days but today I closed the 12v cutoff switch and drove down 82% SOC to 55% and SOH dropped from 94.96 to 94.95%.
Our car sets outside but in the shade until 3-4 PM. Seldom does SOC go below 30% and 98% of time i charge to 100%. Fully charged our mV reading drops to the 2mV-4mV range showing good ability to discharge and recharge or flexibility. High battery temperature noted this summer 107F. Air temperature this summer hit 98-103F for about 30 days.

So is the connection to 12 volt battery the most significant contributor to battery SOH degradation/decay? More than time spent at "high temperature + fully charged"
 
awhile said:
GaleHawkins said:
5% annual is within normal limits Since Feb 2020 when we got the 40 kWh pack we have added 16K miles on our 2016 Nissan Leaf SL that is now showing 41K miles total and SOH is 94.95% Typically we loose 0.01% SOH daily when the 12 volt battery is connected which is around 3.65% annually.
SOH held at 94.96% for 30 days but today I closed the 12v cutoff switch and drove down 82% SOC to 55% and SOH dropped from 94.96 to 94.95%.
Our car sets outside but in the shade until 3-4 PM. Seldom does SOC go below 30% and 98% of time i charge to 100%. Fully charged our mV reading drops to the 2mV-4mV range showing good ability to discharge and recharge or flexibility. High battery temperature noted this summer 107F. Air temperature this summer hit 98-103F for about 30 days.

So is the connection to 12 volt battery the most significant contributor to battery SOH degradation/decay? More than time spent at "high temperature + fully charged"

I am still racking my brain on the WHY.

Someone mentioned that provides a path to ground for the traction battery.

After it got totaled we had it in our shop working with it for about 18 months this was during COVID-19 and everything else.

For safety reasons especially with an EV you do not want the 12v battery connected while it's sitting inside your shop that reduces fire risk.

Every time that I went out to mess with the car I would run Leaf spy Pro and I was noticing there was no battery degradation from the last time where it been a day or a month. The times that I forgot to disconnect the battery cable and I came back there would be degradation of about 0.01% per day. In 18 months SOH dropped from 96.08 to like 95.72% which was like the number of days that it was at other shops that I farmed it out to for body and airbag work.

I drove the Leaf the first time in a month yesterday to go to town to get some diesel fuel for the tractor and I plan to drive it tomorrow. We recently picked up a 2015 Prius C and I have been playing with it and trying to figure it out and so I've just left the Leaf parked with the battery disconnected because I actually put a blade cutoff switch on the negative post cable.

Hopefully someone else with Leaf spy Pro and a Leaf that gets parked for a few days at a time can see if they can duplicate the results that Leaf Spy Pro is reporting in our case.

I have always wondered why Nissan had such a bad issue in some cars with degradation and maybe this is a factor? If one had the schematic and could sit down and work through a possible discharge maybe they could come up with an answer. It would seem that Nissan knows this fact or should.

As a side note I also discovered that the car would not move out of the intersection and I have figured out that a relay is held open until the 12 volt battery discharges so that and that would be a safety feature. The 12 volt battery was dead when I went back to the tow yard and so I removed it and fully charged it and then brought it back and put it on the car and the car moved just fine and I actually drove the car around and we loaded it on our tilt trailer.
 
So is the connection to 12 volt battery the most significant contributor to battery SOH degradation/decay? More than time spent at "high temperature + fully charged"

Gods, no! Gale has it in his head that stopping the BMS from updating degradation information actually halts the degradation. He has not provided an explanation for how that would work, exactly. He is going by empirical observation, but isn't drawing the same conclusion as everyone else. Heat and high SOC (especially when hot) remain the top factors in degradation.

Gale slipped in ahead of me.
 
LeftieBiker said:
So is the connection to 12 volt battery the most significant contributor to battery SOH degradation/decay? More than time spent at "high temperature + fully charged"

Gods, no! Gale has it in his head that stopping the BMS from updating degradation information actually halts the degradation. He has not provided an explanation for how that would work, exactly. He is going by empirical observation, but isn't drawing the same conclusion as everyone else. Heat and high SOC (especially when hot) remain the top factors in degradation.

Gale slipped in ahead of me.

LeftieBiker do you have any empirical data to backup your guessing on this subject? Do you have a Leaf and LSP to see if you get different results?
 
The way it works, Gale, is that if you make a claim that something is different from the way it is perceived by everyone else (in this case that includes chemists and even physicists), then you are the one who needs to support your claim - not everyone else is required to support established knowledge. I do drive a Leaf (and my housemate drives a second one), and I do have LeafSpy, but I'm in no shape to spend what little energy I have left trying to disprove a theory that makes no sense. I agree that you have observed something that could be interpreted the way you interpret it, but only if you choose to disregard everything that is known about how lithium batteries work, and how they degrade. Another explanation for what you have observed, one that doesn't venture beyond the bounds of physical laws, is that you have the car stored under conditions that support minimal degradation, and that repeatedly cutting power to the 12 volt system is just messing up the BMS's ability to monitor the traction battery.

Your reality, of course, may vary.
 
I have never had a LEAF with a 30 kWh battery so I don't have direct experience with that battery. My cars have periodically been parked for extended time at either my office or the airport so I can compare the drop in AHr and SOH (as indicated by LEAF Spy Pro) between being driven nearly every day for a month and being parked for a month. My 2019 SL Plus (62 kWh battery) was parked from the end of September 2020 to the end of October 2020 at my office while I was on assignment at a new substation for commissioning. I did nothing except remove the Bluetooth adapter from the OBDII port and lock the doors when I left it parked. The traction battery kept the 12V battery charged while I was gone; the SOC was nearly the same when I returned as when I parked. This is typical for what I saw with the previous cars which both had 24 kWh batteries.

For the 2019 SL Plus:
The AHr dropped 0.47 and SOH dropped 0.27% during the month of September 2020 while driving nearly every day.
The AHr dropped 0.55 and SOH dropped 0.29% during the month of October 2020 while the car was parked in the shade under covered parking. It is likely that there was also a 3-month LBC (lithium battery controller) update during October while it was parked.
The AHr dropped 0.16 and SOH dropped 0.09% during the month of November 2020 while driving nearly every day.

My conclusions are that the gradual reductions in AHr and SOH noted with each charge cycle are just estimations by the LBC. The periodic updates (about every 90 days) are an attempt by the LBC to recalibrate itself vs. the actual battery capacity and again they are just estimations. It appears that the LBC recognized that its capacity loss estimates were wrong, so it reported almost no loss during November as it recalibrated itself to more closely match the actual battery capacity. The amount of energy used from the traction battery to keep the 12V battery charged is almost nothing. Therefore, I believe the small amount of energy consumed while parked has no impact on actual traction battery capacity/deterioration.

In Gale's case, I believe disconnecting the 12V battery inhibits the LBC from updating so it shows almost the same AHr and SOH when the 12V battery is reconnected as when it was disconnected. It is likely that the LBC will update its capacity estimates over time as the car is driven.
 
Yes, indeed. Gale now has a 40kwh battery in that car, though. It was a warranty replacement for the original 30kwh "Lettuce Pack." Plenty of us have experience with the 40kwh battery.
 
GerryAZ said:
I have never had a LEAF with a 30 kWh battery so I don't have direct experience with that battery. My cars have periodically been parked for extended time at either my office or the airport so I can compare the drop in AHr and SOH (as indicated by LEAF Spy Pro) between being driven nearly every day for a month and being parked for a month. My 2019 SL Plus (62 kWh battery) was parked from the end of September 2020 to the end of October 2020 at my office while I was on assignment at a new substation for commissioning. I did nothing except remove the Bluetooth adapter from the OBDII port and lock the doors when I left it parked. The traction battery kept the 12V battery charged while I was gone; the SOC was nearly the same when I returned as when I parked. This is typical for what I saw with the previous cars which both had 24 kWh batteries.

For the 2019 SL Plus:
The AHr dropped 0.47 and SOH dropped 0.27% during the month of September 2020 while driving nearly every day.
The AHr dropped 0.55 and SOH dropped 0.29% during the month of October 2020 while the car was parked in the shade under covered parking. It is likely that there was also a 3-month LBC (lithium battery controller) update during October while it was parked.
The AHr dropped 0.16 and SOH dropped 0.09% during the month of November 2020 while driving nearly every day.

My conclusions are that the gradual reductions in AHr and SOH noted with each charge cycle are just estimations by the LBC. The periodic updates (about every 90 days) are an attempt by the LBC to recalibrate itself vs. the actual battery capacity and again they are just estimations. It appears that the LBC recognized that its capacity loss estimates were wrong, so it reported almost no loss during November as it recalibrated itself to more closely match the actual battery capacity. The amount of energy used from the traction battery to keep the 12V battery charged is almost nothing. Therefore, I believe the small amount of energy consumed while parked has no impact on actual traction battery capacity/deterioration.

In Gale's case, I believe disconnecting the 12V battery inhibits the LBC from updating so it shows almost the same AHr and SOH when the 12V battery is reconnected as when it was disconnected. It is likely that the LBC will update its capacity estimates over time as the car is driven.

Thanks for the specific AHr and SOH LSP readings. It should be helpful in moving beyond the SWAG method as to my question about why LSP reports no lose of SOH during periods of time when there is no 12v battery is connected after a 12v battery is electrically installed.
 
awhile said:
Two year update.
Two years since I received new 40 kWh replacement battery for my 2016 Leaf SV.

According to LeafSpy Pro,
I can charge to: 35 kWh
AHr = 105
SOH = 91%
GIDS = 453
Hx = 109%

Odometer 81k miles. I added 10k miles in two years since battery

Thanks for your post giving all of us some reference points encouraging me to do the same. The below readings where from 6:30 am this morning after charging to 100% over night.

LSP readings 3 Oct 2022

AHr = 109.61
SOH = 94.95%
GIDS = 467
Hx = 98.85

Odometer reading 41259 per LSP log of the above data points. This new as of Feb 2020 40 kWh battery pack as NO DC charges in its 16K miles of service.
 
GaleHawkins said:
awhile said:
Two year update.
Two years since I received new 40 kWh replacement battery for my 2016 Leaf SV.

According to LeafSpy Pro,
I can charge to: 35 kWh
AHr = 105
SOH = 91%
GIDS = 453
Hx = 109%

Odometer 81k miles. I added 10k miles in two years since battery

Thanks for your post giving all of us some reference points encouraging me to do the same. The below readings where from 6:30 am this morning after charging to 100% over night.

LSP readings 3 Oct 2022

AHr = 109.61
SOH = 94.95%
GIDS = 467
Hx = 98.85

mV reading = 4mV

Odometer reading 41259 per LSP log of the above data points. This new as of Feb 2020 40 kWh battery pack as NO DC charges in its 16K miles of service.

awhile Since one difference in our LSP results is Hx I dug up this link.

https://www.reddit.com/r/leaf/comments/moim5e/so_really_what_the_heck_does_the_hx_value_in_leaf/

My battery is like 8 months older with over 50% more miles than yours. Per LSP oldest log for 5 May 2022 my Hx was 108.51 which is more like your current Hx reading. My Hx decline over the past 5 months has been linearly . Hx seems to be more of a variable of internal resistance to charging and discharging so I am going to pay more attention to Hx readings.
 
GaleHawkins said:
GaleHawkins said:
awhile said:
Two year update.
Two years since I received new 40 kWh replacement battery for my 2016 Leaf SV.

According to LeafSpy Pro,
I can charge to: 35 kWh
AHr = 105
SOH = 91%
GIDS = 453
Hx = 109%

Odometer 81k miles. I added 10k miles in two years since battery

Thanks for your post giving all of us some reference points encouraging me to do the same. The below readings where from 6:30 am this morning after charging to 100% over night.

LSP readings 3 Oct 2022

AHr = 109.61
SOH = 94.95%
GIDS = 467
Hx = 98.85

mV reading = 4mV

Odometer reading 41259 per LSP log of the above data points. This new as of Feb 2020 40 kWh battery pack as NO DC charges in its 16K miles of service.

awhile Since one difference in our LSP results is Hx I dug up this link.

https://www.reddit.com/r/leaf/comments/moim5e/so_really_what_the_heck_does_the_hx_value_in_leaf/

My battery is like 8 months older with over 50% more miles than yours. Per LSP oldest log for 5 May 2022 my Hx was 108.51 which is more like your current Hx reading. My Hx decline over the past 5 months has been linearly . Hx seems to be more of a variable of internal resistance to charging and discharging so I am going to pay more attention to Hx readings.

But you're also in a climate that nowhere matches awhile's climate of San Diego. We all know that temperature is one of the biggest contributor to battery degradation, so the two cannot be compared.
 
I did not realize Santa Diego was that much cooler than Kentucky for summer temperatures not that's a major factor difference in our case. It must be nice to live in a place with no triple digit summer temperatures.
 
A reasonable gold standard for trending capacity changes in the pack is a charging test

Gale's approach is ... how should I say this ? ... not convincing.
 
Back
Top