GaleHawkins
Posts: 583
Joined: Sat Oct 26, 2019 5:24 pm
Delivery Date: 15 Oct 2019
Leaf Number: 311365
Location: Murray KY

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

LeftieBiker wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 2:02 pm
So is the connection to 12 volt battery the most significant contributor to battery SOH degradation/decay? More than time spent at "high temperature + fully charged"
Gods, no! Gale has it in his head that stopping the BMS from updating degradation information actually halts the degradation. He has not provided an explanation for how that would work, exactly. He is going by empirical observation, but isn't drawing the same conclusion as everyone else. Heat and high SOC (especially when hot) remain the top factors in degradation.

Gale slipped in ahead of me.
LeftieBiker do you have any empirical data to backup your guessing on this subject? Do you have a Leaf and LSP to see if you get different results?
LeftieBiker
Moderator
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Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 3:17 am
Delivery Date: 30 Apr 2018
Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

The way it works, Gale, is that if you make a claim that something is different from the way it is perceived by everyone else (in this case that includes chemists and even physicists), then you are the one who needs to support your claim - not everyone else is required to support established knowledge. I do drive a Leaf (and my housemate drives a second one), and I do have LeafSpy, but I'm in no shape to spend what little energy I have left trying to disprove a theory that makes no sense. I agree that you have observed something that could be interpreted the way you interpret it, but only if you choose to disregard everything that is known about how lithium batteries work, and how they degrade. Another explanation for what you have observed, one that doesn't venture beyond the bounds of physical laws, is that you have the car stored under conditions that support minimal degradation, and that repeatedly cutting power to the 12 volt system is just messing up the BMS's ability to monitor the traction battery.

Your reality, of course, may vary.
Brilliant Silver 2021 Leaf SV40 W/ Pro Pilot & Protection
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 2 lithium E-bicycles.
BAFX OBDII Dongle
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.
GerryAZ
Gold Member
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Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2010 6:47 pm
Delivery Date: 12 Jun 2011
Location: Phoenix, AZ

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

I have never had a LEAF with a 30 kWh battery so I don't have direct experience with that battery. My cars have periodically been parked for extended time at either my office or the airport so I can compare the drop in AHr and SOH (as indicated by LEAF Spy Pro) between being driven nearly every day for a month and being parked for a month. My 2019 SL Plus (62 kWh battery) was parked from the end of September 2020 to the end of October 2020 at my office while I was on assignment at a new substation for commissioning. I did nothing except remove the Bluetooth adapter from the OBDII port and lock the doors when I left it parked. The traction battery kept the 12V battery charged while I was gone; the SOC was nearly the same when I returned as when I parked. This is typical for what I saw with the previous cars which both had 24 kWh batteries.

For the 2019 SL Plus:
The AHr dropped 0.47 and SOH dropped 0.27% during the month of September 2020 while driving nearly every day.
The AHr dropped 0.55 and SOH dropped 0.29% during the month of October 2020 while the car was parked in the shade under covered parking. It is likely that there was also a 3-month LBC (lithium battery controller) update during October while it was parked.
The AHr dropped 0.16 and SOH dropped 0.09% during the month of November 2020 while driving nearly every day.

My conclusions are that the gradual reductions in AHr and SOH noted with each charge cycle are just estimations by the LBC. The periodic updates (about every 90 days) are an attempt by the LBC to recalibrate itself vs. the actual battery capacity and again they are just estimations. It appears that the LBC recognized that its capacity loss estimates were wrong, so it reported almost no loss during November as it recalibrated itself to more closely match the actual battery capacity. The amount of energy used from the traction battery to keep the 12V battery charged is almost nothing. Therefore, I believe the small amount of energy consumed while parked has no impact on actual traction battery capacity/deterioration.

In Gale's case, I believe disconnecting the 12V battery inhibits the LBC from updating so it shows almost the same AHr and SOH when the 12V battery is reconnected as when it was disconnected. It is likely that the LBC will update its capacity estimates over time as the car is driven.
Gerry
Silver LEAF 2011 SL rear ended (totaled) by in-attentive driver 1/4/2015 at 50,422 miles
Silver LEAF 2015 SL purchased 2/7/2015; traded 8/10/2019 at 82,436 miles
White LEAF 2019 SL Plus purchased 8/10/2019
LeftieBiker
Moderator
Posts: 19271
Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 3:17 am
Delivery Date: 30 Apr 2018
Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Yes, indeed. Gale now has a 40kwh battery in that car, though. It was a warranty replacement for the original 30kwh "Lettuce Pack." Plenty of us have experience with the 40kwh battery.
Brilliant Silver 2021 Leaf SV40 W/ Pro Pilot & Protection
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 2 lithium E-bicycles.
BAFX OBDII Dongle
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.
GaleHawkins
Posts: 583
Joined: Sat Oct 26, 2019 5:24 pm
Delivery Date: 15 Oct 2019
Leaf Number: 311365
Location: Murray KY

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

GerryAZ wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 9:33 pm I have never had a LEAF with a 30 kWh battery so I don't have direct experience with that battery. My cars have periodically been parked for extended time at either my office or the airport so I can compare the drop in AHr and SOH (as indicated by LEAF Spy Pro) between being driven nearly every day for a month and being parked for a month. My 2019 SL Plus (62 kWh battery) was parked from the end of September 2020 to the end of October 2020 at my office while I was on assignment at a new substation for commissioning. I did nothing except remove the Bluetooth adapter from the OBDII port and lock the doors when I left it parked. The traction battery kept the 12V battery charged while I was gone; the SOC was nearly the same when I returned as when I parked. This is typical for what I saw with the previous cars which both had 24 kWh batteries.

For the 2019 SL Plus:
The AHr dropped 0.47 and SOH dropped 0.27% during the month of September 2020 while driving nearly every day.
The AHr dropped 0.55 and SOH dropped 0.29% during the month of October 2020 while the car was parked in the shade under covered parking. It is likely that there was also a 3-month LBC (lithium battery controller) update during October while it was parked.
The AHr dropped 0.16 and SOH dropped 0.09% during the month of November 2020 while driving nearly every day.

My conclusions are that the gradual reductions in AHr and SOH noted with each charge cycle are just estimations by the LBC. The periodic updates (about every 90 days) are an attempt by the LBC to recalibrate itself vs. the actual battery capacity and again they are just estimations. It appears that the LBC recognized that its capacity loss estimates were wrong, so it reported almost no loss during November as it recalibrated itself to more closely match the actual battery capacity. The amount of energy used from the traction battery to keep the 12V battery charged is almost nothing. Therefore, I believe the small amount of energy consumed while parked has no impact on actual traction battery capacity/deterioration.

In Gale's case, I believe disconnecting the 12V battery inhibits the LBC from updating so it shows almost the same AHr and SOH when the 12V battery is reconnected as when it was disconnected. It is likely that the LBC will update its capacity estimates over time as the car is driven.
Thanks for the specific AHr and SOH LSP readings. It should be helpful in moving beyond the SWAG method as to my question about why LSP reports no lose of SOH during periods of time when there is no 12v battery is connected after a 12v battery is electrically installed.
GaleHawkins
Posts: 583
Joined: Sat Oct 26, 2019 5:24 pm
Delivery Date: 15 Oct 2019
Leaf Number: 311365
Location: Murray KY

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

awhile wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 8:07 am Two year update.
Two years since I received new 40 kWh replacement battery for my 2016 Leaf SV.

According to LeafSpy Pro,
I can charge to: 35 kWh
AHr = 105
SOH = 91%
GIDS = 453
Hx = 109%

Odometer 81k miles. I added 10k miles in two years since battery
Thanks for your post giving all of us some reference points encouraging me to do the same. The below readings where from 6:30 am this morning after charging to 100% over night.

LSP readings 3 Oct 2022

AHr = 109.61
SOH = 94.95%
GIDS = 467
Hx = 98.85

Odometer reading 41259 per LSP log of the above data points. This new as of Feb 2020 40 kWh battery pack as NO DC charges in its 16K miles of service.
GaleHawkins
Posts: 583
Joined: Sat Oct 26, 2019 5:24 pm
Delivery Date: 15 Oct 2019
Leaf Number: 311365
Location: Murray KY

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

GaleHawkins wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 6:40 am
awhile wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 8:07 am Two year update.
Two years since I received new 40 kWh replacement battery for my 2016 Leaf SV.

According to LeafSpy Pro,
I can charge to: 35 kWh
AHr = 105
SOH = 91%
GIDS = 453
Hx = 109%

Odometer 81k miles. I added 10k miles in two years since battery
Thanks for your post giving all of us some reference points encouraging me to do the same. The below readings where from 6:30 am this morning after charging to 100% over night.

LSP readings 3 Oct 2022

AHr = 109.61
SOH = 94.95%
GIDS = 467
Hx = 98.85

mV reading = 4mV

Odometer reading 41259 per LSP log of the above data points. This new as of Feb 2020 40 kWh battery pack as NO DC charges in its 16K miles of service.
awhile Since one difference in our LSP results is Hx I dug up this link.

https://www.reddit.com/r/leaf/comments/ ... e_in_leaf/

My battery is like 8 months older with over 50% more miles than yours. Per LSP oldest log for 5 May 2022 my Hx was 108.51 which is more like your current Hx reading. My Hx decline over the past 5 months has been linearly . Hx seems to be more of a variable of internal resistance to charging and discharging so I am going to pay more attention to Hx readings.
Oils4AsphaultOnly
Posts: 993
Joined: Sat Oct 10, 2015 4:09 pm
Delivery Date: 20 Nov 2016
Leaf Number: 313890
Location: Arcadia, CA

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

GaleHawkins wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 7:25 am
GaleHawkins wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 6:40 am
awhile wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 8:07 am Two year update.
Two years since I received new 40 kWh replacement battery for my 2016 Leaf SV.

According to LeafSpy Pro,
I can charge to: 35 kWh
AHr = 105
SOH = 91%
GIDS = 453
Hx = 109%

Odometer 81k miles. I added 10k miles in two years since battery
Thanks for your post giving all of us some reference points encouraging me to do the same. The below readings where from 6:30 am this morning after charging to 100% over night.

LSP readings 3 Oct 2022

AHr = 109.61
SOH = 94.95%
GIDS = 467
Hx = 98.85

mV reading = 4mV

Odometer reading 41259 per LSP log of the above data points. This new as of Feb 2020 40 kWh battery pack as NO DC charges in its 16K miles of service.
awhile Since one difference in our LSP results is Hx I dug up this link.

https://www.reddit.com/r/leaf/comments/ ... e_in_leaf/

My battery is like 8 months older with over 50% more miles than yours. Per LSP oldest log for 5 May 2022 my Hx was 108.51 which is more like your current Hx reading. My Hx decline over the past 5 months has been linearly . Hx seems to be more of a variable of internal resistance to charging and discharging so I am going to pay more attention to Hx readings.
But you're also in a climate that nowhere matches awhile's climate of San Diego. We all know that temperature is one of the biggest contributor to battery degradation, so the two cannot be compared.
:: Leaf S30 :: build date: Sep '16 :: purchased: Nov '16
:: Model 3 LR (Turo) :: acquired 9 May '18
:: Model Y LR AWD (wife's) :: acquired 30 Dec '20
100% Zero transportation emissions (except when I walk) and loving it!
GaleHawkins
Posts: 583
Joined: Sat Oct 26, 2019 5:24 pm
Delivery Date: 15 Oct 2019
Leaf Number: 311365
Location: Murray KY

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

I did not realize Santa Diego was that much cooler than Kentucky for summer temperatures not that's a major factor difference in our case. It must be nice to live in a place with no triple digit summer temperatures.
SageBrush
Posts: 7511
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: NM

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

A reasonable gold standard for trending capacity changes in the pack is a charging test

Gale's approach is ... how should I say this ? ... not convincing.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought Jan 2017 from N. Cal @ 90% SOH
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
SOL0 7/2022 @ 83% SOH

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