The Competition: 6.6kW Charging

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AndyH said:
muus said:
Please Nissan if you are reading this, move the charger to the front (where it should have been in the first place) and get rid of the charger hump! It's a Win-Win-Win situation. (save $$$ - simpler install - more trunk space)
The charger is only 1/2 of the hump - the brake controller and it's back-up battery is on the other 1/2.


Those brake back up units can be made vey small. See the one on the Prius.
 
Sure, unless they planned well ahead for this, it may need the wiring to the charger and battery upgraded to handle the doubled amperage, as well as a number of other supporting components replaced with uprated ones. It may not be as simple as just dropping in a new charger itself and updating the firmware. If such is the case, it may not be financially feasible to make the swap.



Smidge204 said:
mogur said:
However, I'm still not convinced that this is even technically possible, regardless.
Would you like to expand on that point? The battery itself is more than capable of handling that charge rate, as are most of the system in the vehicle. The on-board charger is a standalone unit, so I see no reason why it could not be replaced?
=Smidge=
 
You guys need to sweeten the pot.. How much would pay extra for the 6.6kw charger option?.. note that the competition may be vaporware for probably a year or two so no need to make it free. Nissan probably has a stock of 3.3kw units that they need to get rid off.
 
mogur said:
Sure, unless they planned well ahead for this, it may need the wiring to the charger and battery upgraded to handle the doubled amperage, as well as a number of other supporting components replaced with uprated ones. It may not be as simple as just dropping in a new charger itself and updating the firmware. If such is the case, it may not be financially feasible to make the swap.
The battery would not need to be altered in any way, since it is already capable of charge and discharge rates well above 6.6kW (80kW max discharge, at least 30kW charge via quick-charge/regen)

If the cables leading from the charge port to the charger aren't up to snuff, it should be a relatively simple matter to swap them out. I don't think this is likely since the J1772 connector is rated 80 Amps, so the wiring should be at least that. It's possible it isn't of course - but it should be a quick fix since it's a single run from port to charger.

The upgrade can almost certainly be done in under an hour if the cable needs to be swapped, half an hour if it's just the charger. Well within "while you wait" duration IMHO.
=Smidge=
 
Smidge204 said:
If the cables leading from the charge port to the charger aren't up to snuff, it should be a relatively simple matter to swap them out. I don't think this is likely since the J1772 connector is rated 80 Amps, ...
Where does it say that ?
 
LEAFer said:
Smidge204 said:
If the cables leading from the charge port to the charger aren't up to snuff, it should be a relatively simple matter to swap them out. I don't think this is likely since the J1772 connector is rated 80 Amps, ...
Where does it say that ?

I'm not an SAE member so forgive me for not citing the J1772 standard directly. It is an inference I made based on past research.

In short, the J1772 connector is the Yazaki design which is good up to 80A at 240V AC. Current individual connectors are UL listed at 30A but the connector design is for 80A and supposedly the J1772 standard itself allows for that much.

But even at 30A/240V you're good for 6.6kW.
=Smidge=
 
Smidge204 said:
Current individual connectors are UL listed at 30A but the connector design is for 80A and supposedly the J1772 standard itself allows for that much.

My J1772 is capable of 80A; it's a ClipperCreek CS-100, using the same hardware that charges the Tesla Roadster. Not that I'd be able to test it, but it's at least capable of such if an appropriate charger is installed.

Under the TOU rates proposed by Dominion Virginia Power, I estimate a mere $50 per year in savings with the 6.7kW charger on the LEAF. I certainly wouldn't argue it on the basis of ideal charging conditions since I told Nissan I'd pay up to $1000 for it (more, actually).
 
Smidge204 said:
LEAFer said:
Smidge204 said:
If the cables leading from the charge port to the charger aren't up to snuff, it should be a relatively simple matter to swap them out. I don't think this is likely since the J1772 connector is rated 80 Amps, ...
Where does it say that ?

I'm not an SAE member so forgive me for not citing the J1772 standard directly. It is an inference I made based on past research.

In short, the J1772 connector is the Yazaki design which is good up to 80A at 240V AC. Current individual connectors are UL listed at 30A but the connector design is for 80A and supposedly the J1772 standard itself allows for that much.

But even at 30A/240V you're good for 6.6kW.
=Smidge=
Ok ... that may be true of the SAE standard for the plug. But I highly doubt the receptacle on the LEAF is rated to 80A. The UL listing (and by implication its rating) applies to the plug. I don't know what applies to the receptacle in the LEAF. I can only imagine that Nissan has had it properly tested, but who knows. Car's not here right now, so I can't check. I don't know if Nissan even installed a UL-certified receptacle or if it's so marked.
 
LEAFer said:
Ok ... that may be true of the SAE standard for the plug. But I highly doubt the receptacle on the LEAF is rated to 80A.
I'm operating under the assumption that the plug and receptacle are both defined as part of the standard, and therefore would match in terms of requirements. It would make no sense at all to design a standard which allows a 80A plug and charging system to be plugged into a receptacle that can only handle 30A before melting. :|
=Smidge=
 
I believe the Leaf connector only needs to be rated 20 amps as the charger only draws 16 amps. The whole idea of the J connector is to use variable mismatched ampacity on either side and it will not overload. Each side has it's own protection.
 
Smidge204 said:
LEAFer said:
Ok ... that may be true of the SAE standard for the plug. But I highly doubt the receptacle on the LEAF is rated to 80A.
I'm operating under the assumption that the plug and receptacle are both defined as part of the standard, and therefore would match in terms of requirements. It would make no sense at all to design a standard which allows a 80A plug and charging system to be plugged into a receptacle that can only handle 30A before melting. :|
=Smidge=
Again, true (they would match each other). *BUT* even though the standard defines pilot signal protocol up to 80A, that does not mean every EVSE and/or part has to meet the maximum spec. That's the reason you find the Yazaki connectors on most L2 EVSE's marked 30A. They actually wanted them to be 32A, but a minor subset of testing at UL caused a failure at 32A, while passing at 30A (and the 80A target for ITT Canon plug was not achieved and it is downgraded to 75A for the same reason).

What prevents a safety issue is that even an EVSE meeting the maximum spec (but probably equipped with the "downgraded" 75A plug), when it puts out a pilot signal allowing 75A, the car still has the choice of how many amps it will actually draw. It may draw any amount up to 75A as long as it is safe to do so on its own rated equipment (the receptacle and internal wiring back to the charger in the car).

Naturally, an EVSE with all its parts rated and safely operating at 30A at best, should never send out an 80A pilot signal ...

Does that clarify ? Or is my explanation still "obtuse" :)
 
EVDRIVER said:
AndyH said:
muus said:
Please Nissan if you are reading this, move the charger to the front (where it should have been in the first place) and get rid of the charger hump! It's a Win-Win-Win situation. (save $$$ - simpler install - more trunk space)
The charger is only 1/2 of the hump - the brake controller and it's back-up battery is on the other 1/2.
Those brake back up units can be made vey small. See the one on the Prius.
Maybe so. And maybe they can be made 4x larger and stored on a Yakima rack on the roof. ;)
But it is what it is, and it is where it is, and it's not likely to change either size or location without some ringing of hands and gnashing of teeth.
 
AndyH said:
But it is what it is, and it is where it is, and it's not likely to change either size or location without some ringing of hands and gnashing of teeth.
But will be a very good competitive advantage to have a trunk 3 times the size of Focus EV's.
 
evnow said:
AndyH said:
But it is what it is, and it is where it is, and it's not likely to change either size or location without some ringing of hands and gnashing of teeth.
But will be a very good competitive advantage to have a trunk 3 times the size of Focus EV's.
Small oil companies try to compare themselves with larger companies in an attempt to make themselves look more significant than they are; while the larger company intentionally doesn't want to acknowledge the 'brat' in any way as even denial elevates the baby to a higher level than they deserve.

Competition? From the Ford conversion upstart? Not today. :lol: :p

[Yessiree - look at that pretty 6K6 charger. Let's see what it does when we plug-in this here DC quick charger. Wheee those lights are BRIGHT in there! Ohhh...they went out, didn't they? That's too bad...]
 
Smidge204 said:
I'm operating under the assumption that the plug and receptacle are both defined as part of the standard, and therefore would match in terms of requirements. It would make no sense at all to design a standard which allows a 80A plug and charging system to be plugged into a receptacle that can only handle 30A before melting. :|
I think this was supposed to be a discussion of how difficult it would be to upgrade the 3.3kW charger to 6.6kW. A lot of words have been exchanged, but has anybody considered opening up the hump in the back and checking the actual gauges of the wires into and out of the charger?

Ray

/No, I'm not volunteering, since I don't have a charger yet./
 
planet4ever said:
I think this was supposed to be a discussion of how difficult it would be to upgrade the 3.3kW charger to 6.6kW. A lot of words have been exchanged, but has anybody considered opening up the hump in the back and checking the actual gauges of the wires into and out of the charger?
That's goddamn crazy talk! :lol:

Edit:
LEAFer said:
Does that clarify ? Or is my explanation still "obtuse" :)
Crystal clear, but that still doesn't tell us anything about the actual capacity of the socket itself. The only things that come to mind that could affect the amperage rating is material and dimensions. Dimensions are fixed due to the standard - otherwise it would not be mechanically compatible. That leaves materials. It's entirely possible that the materials used only permit the socket to be rated 30A, but that does strike me as odd. There may be other reasons unrelated to the actual construction as to why the rating is so low.

But for worst-case let's assume the socket and wiring are not up to snuff - I still think that would not add much more to the required modification, and that the difficulty of the upgrade is overestimated.
=Smidge=
 
From http://www.cleantechblog.com/2011/01/ford-focus-electric-takes-on-nissan-leaf.html

Ford is making a big deal of the fact that the 2012 Ford Focus Electric charges twice as fast as the 2011 Nissan LEAF. Ford is 6.6 kW/h; Nissan is 3.3 kW/h. The comparison is unfair. The 2012 Nissan LEAF, available at the same time as the 2012 Focus Electric, will also charge at the faster 6.6 kW/h. Nissan, like most automakers, have been waiting for SAE to finalize certain charging standards. In 2012, both cars can be recharged after typical driving in less than 3 hours.

If you are a pioneer buyer of the 2011 LEAF, then you will either be content to charge at 3.3 kW/h, or you will pay to upgrade to 6.6 kW/h. Clean Fleet Report speculates that Nissan will charge $1,000 to $2,000 for the upgrade. Most chargers being installed are ready for 6.6 kW/h and are smart enough to charge at the vehicle’s rate, be it 3.3 or 6.6.

I dont know if these statements are based on actual knowledge or speculation though. :|
 
ovev said:
Most chargers being installed are ready for 6.6 kW/h and are smart enough to charge at the vehicle’s rate, be it 3.3 or 6.6.

I dont know if these statements are based on actual knowledge or speculation though. :|

Actually, a couple of us were speculating this very thing just a couple of weeks ago - that the charger already installed in our cars is fully capable of 6.6kWh charging and it's a feature that's simply crippled (for now).
 
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