EVSE Installation, Info and Cost Comparison Thread

SDElectrician said:

1) Since the EV project chargers are being funded by the DOE the contractors are required to pay their electricians "prevailing wages" which are mandated by the federal government. These wages vary from county to county. They are essentially union scale wages and are significantly higher than most contractors typically pay their electricians. (Plus an hourly chunk for benefits). This can more double our labor costs on these DOE funded jobs. We have to pay prevailing wage from the moment they step into the truck to install a DOE funded charger. Then on top of that we have to fill out 2+ hours worth of forms proving we are actually paying the electricians the federally mandated wage.

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interesting theory, but isn't anyone who gets an AV quote not going through the EV project? I thought the only part that that the government was involved with on the AV installs was when we file for the federal credit. I don't recall many (any?) people complaining about the installation costs for EV project installs.

No EVSE tax credit for me....$426 credit was less than $493 Tentative Minimum Tax. Sigh.

JasonT said:

SDElectrician said:

1) Since the EV project chargers are being funded by the DOE the contractors are required to pay their electricians "prevailing wages" which are mandated by the federal government. These wages vary from county to county. They are essentially union scale wages and are significantly higher than most contractors typically pay their electricians. (Plus an hourly chunk for benefits). This can more double our labor costs on these DOE funded jobs. We have to pay prevailing wage from the moment they step into the truck to install a DOE funded charger. Then on top of that we have to fill out 2+ hours worth of forms proving we are actually paying the electricians the federally mandated wage.

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interesting theory, but isn't anyone who gets an AV quote not going through the EV project? I thought the only part that that the government was involved with on the AV installs was when we file for the federal credit. I don't recall many (any?) people complaining about the installation costs for EV project installs.

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I think you are correct. If you are going through AV it is because you aren't in the EV project. In that case, they probably don't have to pay prevailing wage. Nissan and GM are different. Volt owners have to work with SPX in order to get the free charger and installation reimbursement. I just recently learned that it's different for the LEAF. Ecotality is working directly with people who qualify for the EV project and AV for those who don't (at least that's how I understand it now). In the case of Volts, everything goes though SPX. I just learned this today. However, anyone working on federally funded projects is required to pay their employees prevailing wage. The EV project doesn't mark up the prices, but the 3rd party coordinators do. As long as the installation is close to the $1200 rebate, no one is complaining. It's when the installation is more involved that the difference in cost is a problem.

So, it is the mysterious "3rd party coordinators" that mark things up?

I guess that is why wars cost so much, and are so profitable for some.

garygid said:

You say the cost is high because the installer gets paid union wages, but then say the installer does not make any more than usual. Does that seem inconsistant?

Maybe companies like AV are charging the government $250 per hour for the paperwork?

An AV "certified" installer near here said they get a flat $400 for a "standard" (up to 30 feet) install, and do not get paid at all for the MANY assessments they do.

If the city requires a job permit, a reputable installer would get one, right?

So, somehow your story sounds ... perhaps slightly incorrect.

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I did NOT say the installer gets paid union wages but doesn't make more money. I said the contractors have to PAY THEIR EMPLOYEES UNION WAGES when they work on DOE jobs. That means we pay the employees higher wages, and we also pay the payroll taxes etc on the higher union wages. The electricians who are getting paid union wages love it (yes they DO make more money), but the companies who EMPLOY them now have dramatically increased costs which are in turn passed along. We add $70 to cover the administrative costs required for DOE jobs. NOT $250/hr. Add a $276 permit, plus union scale wages, plus $70 to a job that would normally cost $500 and it now costs over $1000. Higher costs of doing business do NOT equal higher profits. What do you find inconsistent about that? I was simply trying to explain why installation costs seem higher than they should for some installations.

garygid said:

So, it is the mysterious "3rd party coordinators" that mark things up?

I guess that is why wars cost so much, and are so profitable for some.

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The only way any business can exist is to charge more than it costs it to provide a product or service. The difference between what a product or service costs to provide and what a business charges for is is called "profit". From that gross profit, the business can now pay their rent, insurance, phone bills and employees and hopefully have something left over as a net profit. There is nothing "mysterious" or evil about a company (such as AV or SPX) marking up a service they coordinate. Their employees expect to be paid too. Even charities need profits to exist. I doubt you work for free - or maybe you do?

I agree that there are companies that are evil and excessively greedy but that does not describe the vast majority of smaller businesses that make up our economy.

If you have the money to purchase an EV (or any vehicle for that matter) it is either because you own a business (in which case you would certainly understand this concept) or because you work for a company who is able to pay you a salary because they make a profit by charging more than it costs them to provide a product or service. I fail to see the correlation between a middle-man marking up a service and wars being profitable to some. I don't know of too many small business who make huge profits from wars, it's usually the politicians and their buddies.

it's all the union's fault..... that's why CEO's are making
obscene salaries and walk away richer even if they fail
the company's goals.

SDElectrician said:

If you have the money to purchase an EV (or any vehicle for that matter) it is either because you own a business (in which case you would certainly understand this concept) or because you work for a company who is able to pay you a salary because they make a profit by charging more than it costs them to provide a product or service. I fail to see the correlation between a middle-man marking up a service and wars being profitable to some. I don't know of too many small business who make huge profits from wars, it's usually the politicians and their buddies.

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Er, not to put to fine a point on it, but my company has consistently been loosing money for over 10 years now and for decades before that, with only a brief period in the 1990s when we were profitable. Year after year, my company spends more than it takes in and yet here I am, buying a LEAF.

It doesn't mean I lack business acumen, however, and what I've observed is that many local, electrical contractors are self-employed. So, when they have a job that may pay Union Scale, they could just do the work themselves and keep all the profits in the business rather than having to pay it out to employees. This means the electrical contractors are benefiting from the higher rates, but IMHO they are not doing so willingly. I mean, sure, they like getting paid more, but very few electrical contractors want to build up a reputation of price gauging, as you've said. But if that's what they must be paid, that's what they must be paid. My point is simply, it's not a tug-of-war between small business and employee since most electrical contracting small businesses are run by a board-certified, bonded and licensed electrician who could do the work him- or herself, and for that kind of money, why wouldn't you?

Complex dual Blink Installation performed in SF Bay Area Condo

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=3134

I got the first permit for J1772 installation in the City of Ventura.

AV Contract installer, ACS Construction's Quote was $3,033.77 including $1945.50 custom install (for 87" of wire and conduit from my existing new 200 amp main panel) and $250 for city permit.

I did it myself, about 4 hours of labor.
$837.77 for the charger including unit, shipping and tax.
$238.00 for the conduit and wire.
$110.99 for the city permit.
Total cost $1186.76
Saved $1,847.01

Also added a dedicated level one outlet.
Now I just need my car....

Kent Bullard
Ventura, CA

Bullard said:

I got the first permit for J1772 installation in the City of Ventura.

AV Contract installer, ACS Construction's Quote was $3,033.77 including $1945.50 custom install (for 87" of wire and conduit from my existing new 200 amp main panel) and $250 for city permit.

I did it myself, about 4 hours of labor.
$837.77 for the charger including unit, shipping and tax.
$238.00 for the conduit and wire.
$110.99 for the city permit.
Total cost $1186.76
Saved $1,153.49

Also added a dedicated level one outlet.
Now I just need my car....

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Congratulations and +10 on Skilled! Man, though, I can't believe I've had my dust-gathering EVSE for over 3 months in VA and now and yet there are still folks in LEAF country (i.e. California) who don't have their EVSEs set up yet.

But, you want to talk about an EVSE getting lonely, waiting for a car, mine will probably have a year before it ever sees a LEAF.

Nicely done! Where did you get the charger and why did you need a permit?

Thanks for any info you can shed on this.

Generally, a Building Permit to make electrical wiring changes to a Residence.

Several places to buy an EVSE, and one comes with the LEAF.

The Charger itself is already in the LEAF, but AC power is supplied to the car's charger through an "EVSE".

First off, now that you got your car (you lucky dog), it's time to get the EVSE installed.

I bought the EVSE directly from AeroVironment.
With tax and shipping the total was $837.77

I got the building permit because it is required.
One could of probably do it without, but...

Remember back in early February the email from Nissan in which they stated unless you opted out, they were going to notify the local utility for "service planning" purposes. There is a good chance someone out there knows about your pending installation.
If you intend on installing a level two charge connection, the utility will (may indeed) ask about your installation permit. I also know that our city electrical inspector and the local utility planners talk to each other on a regular basis (this is a good thing).

As earlier adopters we should be on the up and up on this. After all you are spending, skimping on a permit cost is not worth it. In my case I paid the higher cost because I was first and the city is now considering a low cost minor permit fee for future installations.

I'm in this too deep with my solar system, net metering agreement, advocating with the city for public charging point access and reduced fees to not do what is required.

If you have to skimp, do the install yourself or have an electrician do it. There is not a requirement to have it done by a high priced exclusive contract installer.

Kent

Hi All,
I need some help, perhaps one of you can let me know what's going on here. I got my garage pre-wired with a 240 non-fusable switch wired to my panel with a 40 Amp breaker. My electrician charged me about $300.

The AV guy came out, did the assessment for 5 min and charged $100. Said he was going to recommend a minimum install with a 15' cable on the EVSE. Just today I got the quote and here was the breakdown:

Install - $800
EVSE - $721
Shipping - $50

I called up and thought $800 for the install was ridiculous since all they have to do is plug the thing into the switch I already have installed. I told them I'd rather just buy the EVSE and do it myself. They changed the form online so I had the option. I accepted all the terms and now they want to charge me $995 for the EVSE!

I really really hate doing business with companies that do that sort of thing. They will charge me $721 for the EVSE if they do the job but if I just want the EVSE they are going to charge me over $250 more?! Where is the sense in that.

Anyone have any advice? I feel like AVs got me in a corner. Please help.
...Dan

Tell AV to cancel the deal.

Get the plug in EVSE modded and use that with your new 240v circuit until something reasonably priced hits the market.

http://www.evseupgrade.com/

chipcustomizer said:

Hi All,
I need some help, perhaps one of you can let me know what's going on here. I got my garage pre-wired with a 240 non-fusable switch wired to my panel with a 40 Amp breaker. My electrician charged me about $300.

The AV guy came out, did the assessment for 5 min and charged $100. Said he was going to recommend a minimum install with a 15' cable on the EVSE. Just today I got the quote and here was the breakdown:

Install - $800
EVSE - $721
Shipping - $50

I called up and thought $800 for the install was ridiculous since all they have to do is plug the thing into the switch I already have installed. I told them I'd rather just buy the EVSE and do it myself. They changed the form online so I had the option. I accepted all the terms and now they want to charge me $995 for the EVSE!

I really really hate doing business with companies that do that sort of thing. They will charge me $721 for the EVSE if they do the job but if I just want the EVSE they are going to charge me over $250 more?! Where is the sense in that.

Anyone have any advice? I feel like AVs got me in a corner. Please help.
...Dan

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BEND OVER! They're gonna do it to you. :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

chipcustomizer said:

I called up and thought $800 for the install was ridiculous since all they have to do is plug the thing into the switch I already have installed. I told them I'd rather just buy the EVSE and do it myself. They changed the form online so I had the option. I accepted all the terms and now they want to charge me $995 for the EVSE!

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Can you say bait and switch?

I knew ya could.

I actually got a list of possible Nissan approved devices from Nissan directly:

ECOTality - http://www.theevproject.com
Clipper Creek CS40 - http://www.clippercreek.com
Clipper Creek LCS25 - http://www.clippercreek.com
Coulomb CT2100 - http://www.coulombtech.com/products-charging-stations.php
Coulomb CT500 - http://www.coulombtech.com/products-charging-stations.php
SPX - https://www.homecharging.spx.com/volt/Display.aspx?id=25&me
Schneider - http://www.schneider-electric.us/products-
GE - http://www.geindustrial.com/products/static/ecomagination-

Some of the links work some of them I couldn't find the device they were selling, but I'm not sure if anyone else has tried any of these other systems and prefers them over the AV model.