I Want my (fast) DC!

My Nissan Leaf Forum

Help Support My Nissan Leaf Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
I would be satisfied if the Nissan dealers would just know the difference between L2 and L3. My dealer showed me his "quick charge station" got me excited - until I realized it ain't so - it's just an L2. :cry:

And that's not just here in Texas.....

MrZorg said:
EVDRIVER said:
The QC port is not the same as the L2...
Even the Nissan dealers can't get this right yet. Both local dealers I've visited keep referring to their L2's as quick chargers... :roll:
 
Confirms my worst suspicions that the EV manufactures without DC capability are obstructing the infrastructure development.

"By year's end the Chicago area will have more public rapid-charging stations than anywhere else in the world - capable of juicing up the Nissan Leaf and the Mitsubishi i-MiEV when they start selling in the area a year or so from now - but the super-fast chargers will not be compatible with the Ford Focus EV that will be available in Chicago and its suburbs later this year.

So reported the Chicago Tribune in today's edition. The paper also reported that by the time Chicago's 73 direct-current fast-charging stations are installed next January, they could be mostly obsolete. That's because the Chicago system is using a Japanese-developed charging protocol and there's a big effort in the U.S. to adopt a difference standard for rapid charging.

...SAE is considering the Japanese protocol, but the group is under pressure from General Motors and other automakers to not use the outlet that is compatible with the Leaf and the i-MiEV in part to create a problem for their makers."

http://blogs.edmunds.com/greencaradvisor/

PS- Go to the news article linked above:

http://discussions.chicagotribune.com/20/chinews/ct-biz-0216-charging-stations-20110216/10

to find a depressing assortment of EV misinformation in the comments.
 
walterbays said:
Someday I'd love to be able to throw a switch in the garage and feed my PV output straight into the car's DC port - as opposed to converting the PV output DC to AC with losses, feeding it to the grid with losses, waiting until midnight, bringing power back over the grid with losses, sending it to the car's charger, converting it AC to DC with losses, and finally into the battery.

UC San Diego has them:
Photovoltaic panels make DC power. Batteries are charged with DC power. But the electric grid runs on AC. And every time you convert electricity from one type of current to another, you lose some energy.

In the UCSD test, some cars will charge directly from solar panels on car ports, while others will charge from batteries that have been charged with solar power. A third method will use the electric grid as a backup.
http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2011/jan/31/san-diego-collaboration-could-pioneer-energy-solut/
 
At my local Nissan dealer, in Redding Ca, I was told a DC charger installation there was impossible (2 L2 chargers are 24 hour accessible) because Redding Electric Utility could or would not provide 3 phase service. But I have read on other threads that 3 phase is not neccessary for DC charger installations.

Would members with a greater understanding of the US grid design, commercial service standards, and DC charger design, please explain power requirements and just how difficult it is to locate DC charge stations?

Is my understanding is that there are large numbers of locations with sufficient infrastructure for DC charge locations-everywhere there is a "commercial" power supply-incorrect?

BTW, I spoke to a PG&E rep on Friday, who said parts for the Vacaville DC charger are on order from Japan, So half the current US DC fast-charge infrastructure will be down for a while longer...
 
edatoakrun said:
At my local Nissan dealer, in Redding Ca, I was told a DC charger installation there was impossible (2 L2 chargers are 24 hour accessible) because Redding Electric Utility could or would not provide 3 phase service. But I have read on other threads that 3 phase is not neccessary for DC charger installations.
Technically this is correct, however the off-board charger that Nissan is using may require three-phase service. It's all about the charger's ability to convert the incoming voltage and amperage to 400 VDC at varying amperage levels for the car. It could be done on single-phase as well, but would require higher amperage requirements.

edatoakrun said:
Would members with a greater understanding of the US grid design, commercial service standards, and DC charger design, please explain power requirements and just how difficult it is to locate DC charge stations?

Is my understanding is that there are large numbers of locations with sufficient infrastructure for DC charge locations-everywhere there is a "commercial" power supply-incorrect?
If I wanted three-phase service for my home, technically I could buy it as the wires do run on the same poles that I current get single-phase service from. Most "industrial" sites will already have three-phase service installed, but if a site only had single-phase and wanted a three-phase DC Quick Charger it would be a matter of getting the power from the pole to the unit.
 
DarkStar said:
...If I wanted three-phase service for my home, technically I could buy it as the wires do run on the same poles that I current get single-phase service from. Most "industrial" sites will already have three-phase service installed, but if a site only had single-phase and wanted a three-phase DC Quick Charger it would be a matter of getting the power from the pole to the unit.

So, the transformer nearest my (or any) home is supplied with 3 phase (what voltage?) and stepped down at this location to 240 volt single phase for residences?
 
edatoakrun said:
DarkStar said:
...If I wanted three-phase service for my home, technically I could buy it as the wires do run on the same poles that I current get single-phase service from. Most "industrial" sites will already have three-phase service installed, but if a site only had single-phase and wanted a three-phase DC Quick Charger it would be a matter of getting the power from the pole to the unit.

So, the transformer nearest my (or any) home is supplied with 3 phase (what voltage?) and stepped down at this location to 240 volt single phase for residences?
More than you ever wanted to know on three-phase (and single-phase) power: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-phase_electric_power
 
edatoakrun said:
DarkStar said:
...If I wanted three-phase service for my home, technically I could buy it as the wires do run on the same poles that I current get single-phase service from. Most "industrial" sites will already have three-phase service installed, but if a site only had single-phase and wanted a three-phase DC Quick Charger it would be a matter of getting the power from the pole to the unit.

So, the transformer nearest my (or any) home is supplied with 3 phase (what voltage?) and stepped down at this location to 240 volt single phase for residences?
This is really dependant on where you are on your serving utility's distribution map. Generally the answer is no.
(Big breath) Without burdening this post with alot of math formulae and mumbo-jumbo, I offer this nutshell explaination:

Electricity is typically stepped down several times in voltage between where it is generated and the end user. It leaves the generation station at very high voltage (100,000 - 500,000V), and is received at a sub-station where it is reduced to something your local utility uses in the 10-15,000V range (locally 13,800V or 14,400V). This travels down your utility's dist. system until it is stepped down again to (again a typical but not absolute value) 4160V. 4160V is used by large machinery, huge electric motors, industrial applications, and for local distribution. From here a lot of variables come into play. One 4160V transformer might be serving your whole neighborhood, and it is stepped from there to the end users 240V, or it could be 480V, or any flavor your utility chooses to use. City planning and zoning laws can dictate to your utility as well. If an area is not zoned for commercial/industrial use, there is no reason for a utility to deliver those voltages to those areas. Where exactly your local utility has decided to derive single phase 240v, in relation to your home, is entirely subjective.
 
The Utility is willing to pull three phase service to a business because they have a large motor(s) running 10 to 24 hours a day and they can make money. If three phase is pulled to a QC station the utility will sell what maybe an hour a week of electricity? No money, no wire, no transformers. Now if the project pays for the connection it probably would go. Could also run into additional improvements needed upstream to meet the demand while in use. The real beauty is charging at night when the system is under utilized and that advantage does not apply to QC.
 
DarkStar said:
edatoakrun said:
DarkStar said:
...If I wanted three-phase service for my home, technically I could buy it as the wires do run on the same poles that I current get single-phase service from. Most "industrial" sites will already have three-phase service installed, but if a site only had single-phase and wanted a three-phase DC Quick Charger it would be a matter of getting the power from the pole to the unit.

So, the transformer nearest my (or any) home is supplied with 3 phase (what voltage?) and stepped down at this location to 240 volt single phase for residences?
More than you ever wanted to know on three-phase (and single-phase) power: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-phase_electric_power

Yes, I already read this article, but was still unsure if, as your earlier comment suggests, 3 phase power is uniformly transmitted to residential (and other) transformers.

Is this correct?

If So, the Nissan Salesman was apparently misinformed when he told me that 3 phase power was unavailable on the Redding street where Crown Nissan is located. And the installation of DC Chargers would seem to be possible virtually anywhere there is a power line, so long as 3 phase service is requested from the utility, and paid for by the customer.

Is this also correct?
 
smkettner said:
The Utility is willing to pull three phase service to a business because they have a large motor(s) running 10 to 24 hours a day and they can make money. If three phase is pulled to a QC station the utility will sell what maybe an hour a week of electricity? No money, no wire, no transformers. Now if the project pays for the connection it probably would go. Could also run into additional improvements needed upstream to meet the demand while in use. The real beauty is charging at night when the system is under utilized and that advantage does not apply to QC.

Of course, it makes no sense to use DC charging except when neccessary, for those rare occasions when daily mileage exceeds a vehicles range, and you can't charge off-peak.

But for those occasions, L2 isn't very useful, unless you have something useful to do for many hours while you wait.

The added cost of DC installations obviously must be paid for by the EV driver.

For example, I'll be more than happy to pay $1 a KW for a DC charge, sometime in the "Week of May 2", on I-5, anywhere between Williams and Red Bluff, CA...
 
edatoakrun said:
Yes, I already read this article, but was still unsure if, as your earlier comment suggests, 3 phase power is uniformly transmitted to residential (and other) transformers.

Is this correct?
No, like it was already stated, it all depends on what the power utility has ran down the street and makes available.

edatoakrun said:
If So, the Nissan Salesman was apparently misinformed when he told me that 3 phase power was unavailable on the Redding street where Crown Nissan is located. And the installation of DC Chargers would seem to be possible virtually anywhere there is a power line, so long as 3 phase service is requested from the utility, and paid for by the customer.

Is this also correct?
Nissan's DC Quick Charger appears to require three-phase power, so yes you could install a DC Quick Charger wherever three-phase power is available. However, a DC Quick Charger does not necessarily need three-phase power.
 
DarkStar said:
Nissan's DC Quick Charger appears to require three-phase power, so yes you could install a DC Quick Charger wherever three-phase power is available. However, a DC Quick Charger does not necessarily need three-phase power.

Which brings me back to my question posted this morning:

At my local Nissan dealer, in Redding Ca, I was told a DC charger installation there was impossible (2 L2 chargers are 24 hour accessible) because Redding Electric Utility could or would not provide 3 phase service. But I have read on other threads that 3 phase is not neccessary for DC charger installations.

Would members with a greater understanding of the US grid design, commercial service standards, and DC charger design, please explain power requirements and just how difficult it is to locate DC charge stations?


To restate the same question, are there already sufficient locations (every 50 miles along interstate highways) in the US where DC chargers (3 phase or otherwise) can be located, with sufficient electrical infrastructure already in place, so that total installation costs are in the order of (only) tens of thousands of dollars for each DC charger?
 
edatoakrun said:
DarkStar said:
Nissan's DC Quick Charger appears to require three-phase power, so yes you could install a DC Quick Charger wherever three-phase power is available. However, a DC Quick Charger does not necessarily need three-phase power.

Which brings me back to my question posted this morning:

At my local Nissan dealer, in Redding Ca, I was told a DC charger installation there was impossible (2 L2 chargers are 24 hour accessible) because Redding Electric Utility could or would not provide 3 phase service. But I have read on other threads that 3 phase is not neccessary for DC charger installations.

Would members with a greater understanding of the US grid design, commercial service standards, and DC charger design, please explain power requirements and just how difficult it is to locate DC charge stations?


To restate the same question, are there already sufficient locations (every 50 miles along interstate highways) in the US where DC chargers (3 phase or otherwise) can be located, with sufficient electrical infrastructure already in place, so that total installation costs are in the order of (only) tens of thousands of dollars for each DC charger?
The answer is yes, absolutely. However not in your home.
edit: You can never say never. Exceptions would be in places like multi-family dwellings where 3 phase might be available at the service. The price of getting a private 3 phase service would likely be very cost prohibitive.
 
DarkStar said:
However, a DC Quick Charger does not necessarily need three-phase power.
And there are single phase to three phase converters. Basically a single phase motor and three phase generator in a single housing. Service station had one 30 years ago to run the wheel balancer. This may not be practical for a full power QC.
 
Rake said:
...The answer is yes, absolutely. However not in your home...

That's what I thought, thanks.

Actually, I still think L1 will be sufficient for my home.

But I still think L2, even if Nissan upgrades to a faster charger, will be insufficient for on-the-road charging.

I sure hope I get at least a few chances to use the DC port I ordered, before the 3 year lease expires.
 
smkettner said:
DarkStar said:
However, a DC Quick Charger does not necessarily need three-phase power.
And there are single phase to three phase converters. Basically a single phase motor and three phase generator in a single housing. Service station had one 30 years ago to run the wheel balancer. This may not be practical for a full power QC.
Yes there are, and yes you can rectify single phase into DC.
The quality (cleanness) of the DC depends on the waveform of the input, and how complex the rectifier circuitry is.
A decent site:
http://www.carroll-meynell.com/technical-dcrectification.htm

Layman's terms? AC travels in a sine wave, DC in a straight line (as seen on a scope). The more waves that are overlapped, the easier (and efficient) it is to chop off the unwanted portion of the sine wave to make it appear like a straight line.
 
Seems like one of these existing high capacity DC chargers could be adapted to charge the LEAF battery more quickly than the 3.3KW rate currently (heh heh no pun intended :shock: ) available.

http://www.metricmind.com/charger.htm

http://www.evparts.com/products/street-vehicle/battery-chargers--dot/higher-than-48-volt-street-vehicle-chargers/ch2440.htm

Neither of these require 3 phase power. Though BRUSA does have a model that can accept 3 phase. BRUSA also mentions that they have a 22KW model in the works.

So it would seem that it would be possible to have a DC charge station on a single phase supply, though perhaps taking a little longer than 20 to 30 minutes to charge.

Just a thought. Perhaps someone who has the background and knowledge will put together a single phase DC charge station.

JIm M :geek:
 
jimcmorr said:
So it would seem that it would be possible to have a DC charge station on a single phase supply, though perhaps taking a little longer than 20 to 30 minutes to charge
There's no (technical) reason you couldn't rig an off-board DC charger that ran on single phase power, you just need the appropriate wiring and service size to feed it.

It's all about the coulombs, Jim!
=Smidge=
 
Back
Top