Level 2 Charger Confusion

pgrovetom said:

I have been told by Nissan that ONLY the Aerovironment EVSE may be used and received an email saying "I must provide proof of compatibility of any other EVSE".

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Obviously if they will accept a proof of compatibility they they can't really mean that only AeroVironment can be used. In that context, this doesn't bother me at all. Clearly, AeroVironment has already given Nissan a proof of compatibility. Naturally Nissan would expect the same from anybody else.

Aerovironment told me I could only receive the federal tax credit if I used them.

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Now this is an outrageous lie! The government does not care who manufactures the EVSE, so long as it is UL certified, or who installs it, so long as they are a certified electrician, or what vehicle it is used for so long as it is on their list of EVs.

If you have documented evidence of such a statement it should be given to other EVSE manufacturers so they can initiate a lawsuit against AeroVironment. It should also be given to the IRS, since they administer the tax credit.

You nailed it, Planet.

If anyone gets info like this from any auto dealer or supplier, stay calm and ask for their position in writing. That will likely stop the problem immediately. If not, it provides evidence for an attorney...

The purpose of a standardized EVSE is that it works for everyone that uses that standard. The IRS likely doesn't know an EVSE from a toilet plunger. The county (and home insurance company) is likely looking for a UL EVSE installed by a licensed electrician in accordance with current code. The EVSE is not required at all for the purchase of a Leaf so Nissan shouldn't care if a customer has an EVSE or who makes it. The Magnuson-Moss warranty act prohibits tie-in sales. This means that Nissan cannot say that they'll only warranty the Leaf if the owner uses the AV EVSE UNLESS Nissan provides the EVSE for free.

I'm not an attorney, but am a commercial synthetic lubricants jobber, have been trained in vehicle warranty concerns, have been involved in warranty claims after equipment failures. It's common practice for equipment dealers to 'suggest' that it's best to use 'official' parts - and the suggestions tend to cause the consumer to believe that the warranty depends on using the specified parts. Laws can't address what a consumer believes, but can address what a dealer puts into writing...

Andy

Aerovironment told me I could only receive the federal tax credit if I used them.

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That sounds like the work of an over eager employee ?

evnow said:

Aerovironment told me I could only receive the federal tax credit if I used them.

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That sounds like the work of an over eager employee ?

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The IRS form is very general and does not even specify an EVSE just alt vehicle charging. If you have a receipt for the charger and labor you should be set. There is no stipulation on who installs it from what I can see. You could buy the conduit, supplies and a new service panel, EVSE and write it off but the credit has a cap of course.

I have 25 years in Telecom system design and did circuit and software design early in my career. We designed Telecom systems that the old Bellcore, now Telcordia, Bell System specs which were second to military specs. I did detailed and rough cost estimates on many a system and PCB. I got a block diagram off an SAE based presentation and did a rough conservative cost estimate of the Level 2 EVSE.

Here is the Aerovironment Spec: http://evsolutions.avinc.com/uploads/products/2_AV_EVSE_RS_B2B_061110.pdf

This thing is NEMA 4 enclosure which is outdoor capable even though the majority will be mounted inside garages. To run conduit outdoors and use the pedestal will add a lot of cost but a typical garage is a 25 foot run of EMT conduit plus 3 #8 conductors and a #10 ground plus a new 40A breaker in your garage panel. I have a 100A panel in my garage and bought the EMT conduit and wire plus breaker for less than $100. It took me a few hours to run the conduit and wire and install the new breaker. I'm planning on having everything wired right to a box where my EVSE will be mounted. That way the install is trivial.

Here is my rough estimate based on the blocks in the diagram and my knowledge of roughly what they must do functionally.

The Round Enclosure $25
The SAE J1772 Coupler $50
5 conductor cable 25' (maximum offered) $25
A PCB $10
GFCI Circuit 30A $20
Pilot Monitor and Controller $15
LEDs and buttons $15
CPU, memory and upstream Comm Controller $25
Power Line Modem $25
Misc Hardware $10

These add up to the $200-$250 and is conservative

This range which is doubled for retail so if the market was competitive this thing should be less than $500

So it's interesting they want $2200 on average

$200-$300 in Electrician labor tops
$100 conduit and wire and breaker
$500 retail value (could be $250 if sold by Costco)

So that's $800-$900 tops...

Is it fair to charge the federal tax credit twice the real value... That's the tax payers and the guys who gave Nissan a $1.6B loan and another $100M to the EV Project launching them.

Doesn't sound right to me!

pgrovetom said:

So that's $800-$900 tops...

Is it fair to charge the federal tax credit twice the real value... That's the tax payers and the guys who gave Nissan a $1.6B loan and another $100M to the EV Project launching them.

Doesn't sound right to me!

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Interesting. Initial costs are always high - you need to account for a lot more administrative & sunk-in costs. I've always felt the MSRP of Leaf or Volt would be lower but for the tax credit. But not $7.5K lower.

BTW, we have spent $1 Trillion fighting oil wars this decade. How does that sound ? :twisted:

I was told by the Aerovironment customer service person after being transferred from the Nissan Leaf customer service person that I could only receive the tax credit IF Aerovironment installed the EVSE. It shocked me so I pointed out that since they had a monopoly on both availability ( Its not possible to prove compatibility as required by Nissan unless Nissan approves that vendor which they told me NO ) and price and that might be fraud against the federal government. They said they were sorry but that's the way it is. Now this was just a customer service person who may have not fully understood the issue but I took it to mean that in order to get the tax credit, Nissan and Aerovironment must acknowledge it's functional and they wouldn't. The Aerovironment person did say that she would email her management and point out my concern.

I was a bit shocked because the first Nissan person who transferred me to AV, did so such that I could arrange to buy one and have my own Electrician install. I called Nissan back and asked for a supervisor. When I spoke with one and explained what Aerovironment said, she acknowledged that the only EVSE I could use and be supported by Nissan was the AV unit. I took that to mean that my warranty would be void. I expressed my shock and tried to explain that the J1772 spec was only the connector, pilot signal and and the upstream communication spec J2847 was incomplete and AV has an empty card slot TBD. I asked how the two 120V legs and neutral and pilot function could go wrong. She told me it was complex technology and I explained I had 25 years of telecom system design and NO it was rather simple. She just adamantly said its to protect our customers and I said but I'm a customer and disagree.

This was one of the weirdest customer services set of calls I've ever had. The email below both says I can but I can't without proving compatibility. As a consumer without the Nissan Leaf implementation details nor specifics on what they mean by compatibility, the email is double talk but the supervisor was VERY clear and just said NO, it must be AV and installed by AV "period".

Here is the original odd email I was sent about compatibility that set me making the calls.

Thank you for taking the time to personally contact us about your interest in the Nissan LEAF.
We appreciate your time, and encourage you to share our contact details with friends and family. For your convenience, we can be reached:
By return email, through our website at http://www.nissanusa.com, or by phone at 877-664-2738.
We’re here to serve you from 7:00 a.m. to 7:00 p.m. (CST) Monday through Friday and 8:00 a.m. to 4:30 p.m. (CST) on Saturday
Sincerely,
Nissan Electric Vehicle Customer Support
***This email message is provided in response to your recent inquiry to Leaf Customer support so should not be considered unsolicited commercial email.
The charging dock used for charging electric vehicles is also referred to as an EVSE (Electric Vehicle Supply Equipment). This can be purchased through several different manufacturers. AeroVironment is our preferred vendor for this unit. The home charging dock provided by AeroVironment, Inc. is compatible with the Nissan LEAF. Other manufacturer products may or may not be compatible. Prior to purchasing and/or using another manufacturer’s charging equipment, you need to confirm its compatibility with the Nissan LEAF. Installing the charging dock requires that a line be run from dedicated circuits in the circuit breaker box into the garage/parking area so that the unit can be hard wired to the wall. You will also need to pull a permit from your city to perform the work as well as fill out any right to modify forms that your community may/may not require. If you would like to speak more with our preferred vendor AeroVironment about purchasing a charging dock outside of the Nissan LEAF reservation process please call us at 877-664-2738 and we will be happy to connect you with a representative from that company to discuss the finer details.

I'm somewhat wondering if the tax credit claim was even legal. My dealer was rather upset and is trying to sort it out. All I can say is this J1772 box is no more difficult than a 220V stovetop with a 30A requirement. The 120V legs and neutral are well defined pins with staging and the pilot is well defined. Unless Nissan decided to implement some pre-standard pilot signalling to help AV with the LEDs, getting the 220V and neutral wrong is impossible. The GCFI is a no brainer. The J1772 connector does have a disconnect relay controlled by the pilot to only allow the two pins to be hot when the connector is seated. I guess if the Leaf's pilot was wrong or somebody misunderstood it, the 120V legs would never engage and it would not charge or the other supplier's LEDs might not work but that's pretty remote.

Weird stuff!

pgrovetom said:

Weird stuff!

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Yep, keep us posted.

Thanks for posting this info. There are a couple of very familiar areas here.

Let's tear this apart [my comments in brackets]:

The charging dock used for charging electric vehicles is also referred to as an EVSE (Electric Vehicle Supply Equipment). This can be purchased through several different manufacturers.

[We can buy the EVSE from any supplier.]

AeroVironment is our preferred vendor for this unit.

[Nissan's preferred vendor - but not the only vendor.]

The home charging dock provided by AeroVironment, Inc. is compatible with the Nissan LEAF.

[This one is - but doesn't mean others are not. The EV Project is not using AV EVSE, for example.]

Other manufacturer products may or may not be compatible. Prior to purchasing and/or using another manufacturer’s charging equipment, you need to confirm its compatibility with the Nissan LEAF.

[True statements, probably some 'CYA', but plants doubt. Use of the J1772 standard automagically means compatibility - but doubt leads folks to the easy solution if they aren't sure of their options. Welcome to marketing... The response will be 'compatibility statements' from EVSE manufacturers like this one from Coulomb.]

-----
Nissan is a participant in the SAE's J1772 task force - and is working on the communications messages for the SAE's level 3 charge standard. The odds are very, very small that they've chosen to participate in the standards process while also choosing to violate the standard...

Probably a misguided rep at AV that will feel better after some remedial training...

Andy

AndyH said:

.... remedial training...

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:lol:

The last part of the big highlighted paragraph "Installing ... details." seems to say that the EVSE may be properly installed by anyone, and that Nissan expects AV to sell their EVSE unit to us, without installation charges.

Next call back to Nissan, tell them that AV refused to sell you an EVSE unit, or even quote a price.

Let Nissan lean on AV a bit.

I did Nissan back and asked for a supervisor. Id say AV refused to sell the unit. It was the Nissan customer service supervisor who adamantly ( and not so friendly ) insisted AV was right and my only option was the AV unit installed by AV and approved by Nissan.

As far as compatibility is concerned. I was in telecom for 25 years and compatibility means Nissan test engineers take a ne EVSE supplier into their lab and verify all the functions work properly. Since Nissan has all the details of their auto side connector ( remember more than one supplier will provide them to drawings) and the physical dimensions, staging distances, pilot signal and its signalling from the on auto charger to the EVSE. Only Nissan can say "This EVSE is qualified as compatible". I can't and another supplier can't with Nissan and the supplier cooperating. Probably AV made some sweetheart promises to Nissan so Nissan picked them first. This connector is so simple, compatibility testing might take from one day to a week tops.

In any case at $2200, the EVSE is more than 10% of the whole Leaf Net price after credits. And ITS AN EXTENSION CHORD!

Some interesting info on J1772 ( the coupler) and J2847, TBD (the upstream comm protocol)

REMA - http://www.rema-ev.com/information.html

IEEE - http://grouper.ieee.org/groups/earthobservationsSCC/IEEE_SAE_J1772_Update_10_02_08_Gery_Kissel.pdf

http://www.nepower.org/NPA_presentations/John_Halliwell.pdf


Nissan http://www.franklin-gov.com/Modules/ShowDocument.aspx?documentid=3119

CPUC - http://www.cpuc.ca.gov/NR/rdonlyres...VironmentElectricVehicleChargingSolutions.pdf

EV Project http://www.nwppa.org/web/presentations/2010_Ann_Mtg/Heitmann_eTec.pdf

Nissan

I was told I could only use the EVSE from Aerovironment and only if they install it. Is that true?

Is it ok if I go to my local county building department pull a permit and run the EMT conduit from a new 40A breaker in my 100A secondary panel in my garage and 3 #8 red, black and white plus #10 green ground THHN wire indoors in my garage to a metal box exactly where I want the EVSE. I can get it inspected for NEC code and county compliance and then all AV has to do is run a couple feet to my box or pull my box and wire directly to the EVSE. That way the installation is a snap and already approved and NEC compliant.

The AV EVSE requires 30A which requires a 40A breaker and 3 #8 wire plus a #10 ground. My situation is about 25 feet indoors.

How about that Nissan?

(muffled voice on the phone)
... gasp, burp, gulp, ... hey boss, what do I tell this guy?

I cannot refute what you report, and absolutely will not tell you that you've done anything wrong.

What I will say is that in other parts of the world - Canada, Japan and most of Europe specifically - automakers can and do routinely 'require' use of specific products. This is absolutely prohibited in the US.

In the US, manufacturers can and will say things like "for best performance use Genuine ... parts" But they cannot say "your warranty will be void if you don't use ... parts" unless they provide those parts free of charge. That's a significant aspect of the Magnuson-Moss act that I referenced earlier.

Nissan USA CAN say that they will only 'support' using an AV EVSE - all that means is that 'if you need help operating your Coulomb EVSE, don't call us!'. Think about this for a moment - the EV Project is NOT using AeroVironment EVSE hardware - they're using Coulomb. There are a number of companies selling J1772 EVSE devices - and they ENTIRE point of these standardized devices is that they work with all EVs that use J1772.

Here's a real-world example of how this can affect a manufacturer. Bombardier Recreational Products (BRP) stated in their 2009 owners manuals that "Use of other engine oils may cause severe engine damage and may void the limited warranty" and "no known equivalent” to Bombardier (BRP) oil on the market. When notified by a US oil manufacturer that the language in the owners manuals violated Federal law, BRP agreed that it will no longer say that using non-BRP branded products may void the warranty, that they will make clear that their product recommendations are clearly labeled as 'recommendations rather than requirements, and they will no longer comment on availability of equivalent products.

pgrovetom said:

In any case at $2200, the EVSE is more than 10% of the whole Leaf Net price after credits. And ITS AN EXTENSION CHORD!

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The $2200 is for the EVSE, installation, permit, and inspection. It's more than just an extension cord. And it's completely optional - one does not have to buy an EVSE at all.

If you want to put an end to the 'AV-Only' foolishness, simply ask AV and/or Nissan for their 'requirement' in writing. It'll stop there.

Andy

garygid said:

(muffled voice on the phone)
... gasp, burp, gulp, ... hey boss, what do I tell this guy?

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I spoke to the install appt people who called me and they acted as though the price would not go down if I did work like this. Most likely they are wrong but perhaps someone with an early appt can ask these questions! It will be easy to compare estimates.
I'm starting a thread.

pgrovetom said:

Some interesting info on J1772 ( the coupler) and J2847, TBD (the upstream comm protocol)

REMA - http://www.rema-ev.com/information.html

IEEE - http://grouper.ieee.org/groups/earthobservationsSCC/IEEE_SAE_J1772_Update_10_02_08_Gery_Kissel.pdf

http://www.nepower.org/NPA_presentations/John_Halliwell.pdf


Nissan http://www.franklin-gov.com/Modules/ShowDocument.aspx?documentid=3119

CPUC - http://www.cpuc.ca.gov/NR/rdonlyres...VironmentElectricVehicleChargingSolutions.pdf

EV Project http://www.nwppa.org/web/presentations/2010_Ann_Mtg/Heitmann_eTec.pdf

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I won't add anything to what Andy has said ... other than to say, if you have the time to read thru the info in the above links there are some interesting tidbits. Like, a photo of the Residential AV with the cover off while being installed. Like, the eTec EVSE units will "smartly" communicate with the grid (and Zigbee is mentioned). etc etc.

Interesting readig, thanks.

pgrovetom said:

Is it ok if I go to my local county building department pull a permit and run the EMT conduit from a new 40A breaker in my 100A secondary panel in my garage and 3 #8 red, black and white plus #10 green ground THHN wire indoors in my garage to a metal box exactly where I want the EVSE. I can get it inspected for NEC code and county compliance and then all AV has to do is run a couple feet to my box or pull my box and wire directly to the EVSE. That way the installation is a snap and already approved and NEC compliant.

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Definitely OK to do and should significantly reduce the EVSE installation costs.

To save on permit costs, I wonder if you can combine the 240V 40A line run and EVSE installation inspection - sometimes permits can be expensive.

pgrovetom said:

In any case at $2200, the EVSE is more than 10% of the whole Leaf Net price after credits. And ITS AN EXTENSION CHORD!

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After credits the EVSE is $1,100. So, it is less than 5% of the car cost of 25K after credits.