EVSE Installation, Info and Cost Comparison Thread

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chipcustomizer said:
Hi All,
I need some help, perhaps one of you can let me know what's going on here. I got my garage pre-wired with a 240 non-fusable switch wired to my panel with a 40 Amp breaker. My electrician charged me about $300.

The AV guy came out, did the assessment for 5 min and charged $100. Said he was going to recommend a minimum install with a 15' cable on the EVSE. Just today I got the quote and here was the breakdown:

Install - $800
EVSE - $721
Shipping - $50

I called up and thought $800 for the install was ridiculous since all they have to do is plug the thing into the switch I already have installed. I told them I'd rather just buy the EVSE and do it myself. They changed the form online so I had the option. I accepted all the terms and now they want to charge me $995 for the EVSE!

I really really hate doing business with companies that do that sort of thing. They will charge me $721 for the EVSE if they do the job but if I just want the EVSE they are going to charge me over $250 more?! Where is the sense in that.

Anyone have any advice? I feel like AVs got me in a corner. Please help.
...Dan
I also paid the sucker fee to find that it costs $2,124.07 to purchase the unit, bolt it to the wall and twist on three wire nuts.
My home is fully prewired and inspected for EV as part of the city building code.
I will not give AV another penny. Leviton 160 will be in my garage as soon as it is available.
 
chipcustomizer said:
I actually got a list of possible Nissan approved devices from Nissan directly:

ECOTality - http://www.theevproject.com
Clipper Creek CS40 - http://www.clippercreek.com
Clipper Creek LCS25 - http://www.clippercreek.com
Coulomb CT2100 - http://www.coulombtech.com/products-charging-stations.php
Coulomb CT500 - http://www.coulombtech.com/products-charging-stations.php
SPX - https://www.homecharging.spx.com/volt/Display.aspx?id=25&me
Schneider - http://www.schneider-electric.us/products-
GE - http://www.geindustrial.com/products/static/ecomagination-

Some of the links work some of them I couldn't find the device they were selling, but I'm not sure if anyone else has tried any of these other systems and prefers them over the AV model.

FYI, the CS-100 is just a CS-40 with a few internal adjustments and I guess a thicker cable. It should also be compatible. At least, that I hope since I already got one and won't be able to test it for another 8-12 months. :roll:
 
I'm considering a Leaf, but I'm completely confused by the charging options.

I understand that the standard Leaf connection is 120 volt.

There's a modification available that can then use 240 volt.

There's also a home unit that can be installed onto a 240 volt outlet.

Finally, there's a "DC" option.

Is there anywhere I can get an explanation as to what the difference is between the various options, as to how long it takes to charge the Leaf?

I see some posts that suggest a plain old 240 volt outlet is pretty much the same as the dedicated home charger, but I also see many posts about installing a home charger. What's the diffeence? What does the more expensive home charger get you?

Finally, there's the super-fast DC option, but I also read it may cause the battery to lose capacity at a faster rate than the other options. How big a deal is that, and how is the "DC" option supported as far as equipment?

I know that this is probably covered somewhere on this forum, but when I do searches I get so many hits that I can't find the answers.
 
Start with:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nissan_Leaf#Recharging

(be sure to click on the level 1 and 2 links)

and

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nissan_Leaf#United_States

(see especially the charging options section).

Then ask any remaining questions.

Edit: don't forget to follow the references to see some of the options, like the level 1 upgrade
 
Thanks! Those links covered my questions pretty well.

The first link also mentioned a greater charging capacity planned for 2012:

"Nissan plans to double the power of the on-board charger to 6.6-kilowatt (8.9 hp) in the 2012 model year Leaf."

After reading the materials I think I would choose the modified level-1 cable converted to level-2 capacity. It looks to be at least $1,000 cheaper than the installed permanent home unit.

I'm still on the fence about the Leaf, but the much simpler and cheaper 240-volt charging option makes owning a Leaf a lot more attractive.
 
Since you mention frequent DC QC shortens the battery life.... Nissan also suggests 80% charge to extend battery life.

I have been using the unmodified OEM 120v connector exclusively to get 80% charged all week for my commute and 100% for running around on weekends. This has not presented a problem even when I get home with just a dozen miles range remaining. May not be the best permanent solution but it does illustrate that generally most can get by on the basic included L1 until you have the car for a while and figure out what is best for you.

I am still waiting for the Leviton 160 (16a 240v) wall unit before I make a decision.
 
Deciduous said:
I'm considering a Leaf, but I'm completely confused by the charging options.

...
Welcome to the forum !

What will happen in winter ... will you "lose" your LEAF(s) ?

Consider adding a post to this: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=2143&p=46392
 
Deciduous said:
The first link also mentioned a greater charging capacity planned for 2012:

"Nissan plans to double the power of the on-board charger to 6.6-kilowatt (8.9 hp) in the 2012 model year Leaf."
Given that the Ford Focus EV will have 6.6 KW charging, it is pretty certain that Nissan will make this change to stay competitive.

After reading the materials I think I would choose the modified level-1 cable converted to level-2 capacity. It looks to be at least $1,000 cheaper than the installed permanent home unit.
The only reason I didn't choose the modified L1 unit for my charging is that I live in a condo and want something attached to the wall so it doesn't disappear. Also, it was pretty new at the time I made my decision. I will probably still get my L1 EVSE modified for use when I drive 50 miles and need an extra (and quicker) boost to make sure I get home.
 
Deciduous said:
After reading the materials I think I would choose the modified level-1 cable converted to level-2 capacity. It looks to be at least $1,000 cheaper than the installed permanent home unit.

I spent about $1,500 to buy an A/V (cash/carry, pre-price hike) and get it installed. If I'd had my electrician wire (essentially) the same circuit to provide a 240-volt outlet for the modified L1, plus paid for the L1 modifications, I'd have been out probably $800-1,000, since I'd have had to put the outlet for an L1 much further into the garage (I use the full 25' cord from the A/V EVSE, installed by the garage door), requiring a longer conduit run from the panel.

I'm not sure how to 'price' the convenience factors: 1)just pulling the cable off the hangar, 2)not worrying about the L1 EVSE 'dangling' from a plug or the connections coming loose, 3)not having to remove/stow the unit in the bag/trunk each time you leave home, but it's > 0.

So, I don't regret getting the permanent EVSE installed.
 
I hope other people have a better charger installation experience that I had. I was a "September" order that slid to October 1st. I believe that this was because I was waiting for the ETEC approval. My delivery date went from April to May, and I ended up picking up the car on May 5th (yea!).

The first time SDG&E contacted us was in March 29th, and we finally got the charger working today (May 27th) which is 22 days after picking up the car. There seemed to be one delay after the next. Some of the delays were because I live in a condo and every time someone came out to our place (sdg&e, baker electric, inspector, etc) they told me that they were unable to do multi-family units and had to send someone different whom I had to meet again a few days later. Other delays came from random things such as SDG&E changing the 2nd meter requirement from 4-pin to 5-pin after the electrical work was done the first time and before they came out to install the meter.

Anyway, if you live in a condo I suggest that you budget extra time for the charger installation. It has been quite a challenge keeping our leaf charged, and we were unable to get it to 100% for much of the work week.

I am lucky that the electric meters for our building are directly on the other side of my personal garage wall that I wanted the charger attached to. Final cost was $1,778 - $1,200(EV Project) = $578.
 
Official word from Nissan as of this week in chat is the 6.6kW option won't be available with the Japanese LEAF models at all, and will only become an option when Smyrna starts producing cars with the 2013 model year.

This has me seriously hesitant to buy the 2012 models we get to order now, as per a recent conversation with a local dealership, in July 2011 in the southeast.
 
TimeHorse said:
Official word from Nissan as of this week in chat is the 6.6kW option won't be available with the Japanese LEAF models at all, and will only become an option when Smyrna starts producing cars with the 2013 model year.

This has me seriously hesitant to buy the 2012 models we get to order now, as per a recent conversation with a local dealership, in July 2011 in the southeast.
N.B.: most LEAFs will be driven no more than 2 hours per day, leaving 22 hours for charging in the best situations (with charging at work) or about 12 hours in the normal situation.

After 2,300 miles of LEAFing, there has only been 1 time where I felt I needed to get some miles into the battery to go out to dinner with the wife after returning home a bit late from a remote site visit. To stay on schedule, we left the house with only about 15 minutes of L2 charging.

We drove 7 miles with a "Stage 1" low battery warning to a restaurant in Palo Alto, and I hooked up the Nissan Portable EVSE at 120v at the Lytton Parking structure (which has 3 inductive EVSEs from the 1970's but no J1772s yet).

After "Dinner and a Movie", we had over 20 miles in the tank to drive 7 miles home. Yay.
 
TimeHorse said:
Official word from Nissan as of this week in chat is the 6.6kW option won't be available with the Japanese LEAF models at all, and will only become an option when Smyrna starts producing cars with the 2013 model year.

This has me seriously hesitant to buy the 2012 models we get to order now, as per a recent conversation with a local dealership, in July 2011 in the southeast.
10% of my trips and 20% of my EV miles over the last two years involve opportunity charging. 3.3kW is too slow. I want (and have been driving) an EV with utility. I have no choice but to wait.
 
rclams said:
N.B.: most LEAFs will be driven no more than 2 hours per day, leaving 22 hours for charging in the best situations (with charging at work) or about 12 hours in the normal situation.

Well, first off, Super-Off-Peak TOU, at least under the current EV-rate pilot program, will only be 4 hours. And since I plan to drive somewhere between 75% and 100% battery capacity per day (depending on traffic) I personally foresee a need for maximizing my charge, so 3.5 hours in Off-Peak and 4 in Super-Off-Peak isn't ideal, especially when I need the car at the end of SOP so there's no pushing the charge cycle into the far side of the SOP into Off-Peak. Best for me to start charging at 1am with SOP and finish by 5am (preferably a bit before that even) so I can hit the road before the second worst traffic in the country rears its head and before the summer heat bears down upon me.

But ignoring SOP for a moment, I also foresee a scenario where I may go to work in the morning, then hit someplace north of the city, then head home, which is pushing the limits of the battery to say the least. Others I may go to work, go home, bike to an appointment while the car charges and then go back and drive some more to about 75% the distance I normally drive to work. The long and short of this is, especially if I can't get a right to charge at work, faster charging is very important to me, especially when I see these NEMA16-50Rs (AFAICT) that are used to charge RVs at work. I'd be happy with a NEMA5-15R honestly. If I can charge at work, it solves many of these issues, but until a solid policy is in place, I need back-up and backup may require surreptitious charging mid-day, as well as a preference for SOP.

And did I mention my EVSE can do nearly 20kW charging. :)
 
TimeHorse said:
And did I mention my EVSE can do nearly 20W charging. :)
So basically a little more than a nite light? :lol:

I can appreciate your interest in Super Off Peak charging - where are you located?

And how many miles do you expect to use your LEAF per year? Sounds like quite a few. We're leasing and have a 12k per year/1k per month "target" in mind.
 
rclams said:
TimeHorse said:
And did I mention my EVSE can do nearly 20W charging. :)
So basically a little more than a nite light? :lol:

I can appreciate your interest in Super Off Peak charging - where are you located?

And how many miles do you expect to use your LEAF per year? Sounds like quite a few. We're leasing and have a 12k per year/1k per month "target" in mind.

D'Oh! Fixed in original. 20W is about 4 times the Vampire power of the Clipper Creek CS-100 EVSE, and yes, I took that into account in my calculations. :) 5W it turns out isn't unreasonable for vampire power given some of the stats I've read about other EVSEs but there are no bells and whistles on the CS-100: no cell-phone or wireless connection, no touch-screen display. Just a button to start. Pretty basic. :) (Then again, never tested, :roll:)

I'm in Virginia, and what I'm talking about is Dominion Virginia Power's new pilot program for TOU rates for EVs. I need to write part 2 of the post that gives the specifics of each new rate but you can read more about them here.

The crux of it is 1500 customers are going to get this special rate, half with an EV-only second meter rider and the other with a household EV schedule. The household EV schedule would obviously put the whole house under the TOU rate but the EV Rider would put the EVSE on its own meter. Both are TOU with super-off-peak rates 1am - 5am, and IIRC, household has on-peak, intermediate, off-peak and super-off-peak rates. If you want more details I could put my but into gear and write that part 2. :)

As for mileage, I expect the average day to be about 75, 37 to work, 36 to get home, or there abouts, mostly Interstate. So pretty much a full charge given traffic and weather. I'm looking at all kinds of contingencies too. But man, having a full charge in super-off-peak is nice. I should run those numbers again to see how nice but I do recall it's not a huge savings, but it is a modicum.

Edit: Wait, I have it right here: Schedule EV (Rider) would be $451.66 / year or 6.33 cents/kWh average under 3.3kW; the EV portion of the Household bill under Schedule 1EV would be $425.33 / year or $5.96 cents/kWh.

With a 6.7kW charger: $369.89 / year; 5.18 cents/kWh for Schedule EV and $349.78 / year; 4.90 cents/kWh Schedule 1EV. So we're talking about $75-$80 a year in savings. Hard to break even for the cost of the 6.7kW charger upgrade on just these numbers but I still say the convenience of a faster charger is nice, especially when ChaDeMo isn't available at the charge site (such as a dealership).

Disclaimers: Cents per kWh assume all costs, including taxes, fuel, transmission, distribution and generation. Assumptions are 95% charge (22.8kWh) used per weekday, 50% of that each weekend day (11.4kWh), 3 & a third miles per kWh fuel efficiency, and just under 24k miles per year driven. The 95% e-fuel usage is based on the idea of loss between EVSE and traction battery as well as waste from adverse weather and traffic. Fuel efficiency is thus based on power at wall not power at battery (so I admit 3.3333 is a bit optimistic).
 
TimeHorse said:
rclams said:
And how many miles do you expect to use your LEAF per year? Sounds like quite a few. We're leasing and have a 12k per year/1k per month "target" in mind.

3 & a third miles per kWh fuel efficiency and just under 24k miles per year driven.
24k miles/yr.! Wow!

Dude, you'll NEED 6.6kW charging! ;)

Not to mention an L3 a mile from your house next to a Starbucks!

WRT efficiency: When I drive the LEAF on the freeway, without climate control, mind you, I set 56-58 mph on Cruise Control, fire up the iPod and have an 80 mile "safe" range (with perhaps First Warning). That's around 4 miles/kWhr for freeway use. (My overall average is 4.5+, BTW.)

But when I drive my wife's commute route at 60-70 mph without cruise control (simulating HOV lane speeds) with climate control, the effective safe range drops to 60 miles (with perhaps First Warning), not including headlight use. That's about 3 miles/kWhr for "fast aka normal" freeway use.

At best, your wall-to-battery charging efficiency will be 95%, so you're at 2.85 miles/kWhr less any Climate pre-conditioning that you will do, winter and summer. So 2.75 might be a good planning number to use.

BTW, we are leasing, and I off-peak charge to 100% anytime I show less than 90 miles of ECO range, which is most days, IOW.

Nissan/CarWings needs 80%-ers and daily 100%-ers to learn as much as possible abut real-world energy use and I'm glad to do my part!
 
I do a 50 mile one-way commute every day and i was able to install an L2 charger at my office, so i decided to have one put in at home as well.

I found a great licensed electrician that buys the Schneider Electric unit wholesale and passes on the savings. I had two units installed, total cost was just above the retail cost of the unit and the quality of work was top notch.

I would recommend to anyone looking for L2 to call these guys, Jim Antonnuci 909-855-5278
 
jeffc said:
I do a 50 mile one-way commute every day and i was able to install an L2 charger at my office, so i decided to have one put in at home as well.

I found a great licensed electrician that buys the Schneider Electric unit wholesale and passes on the savings. I had two units installed, total cost was just above the retail cost of the unit and the quality of work was top notch.

I would recommend to anyone looking for L2 to call these guys, Jim Antonnuci 909-855-5278

I suggest unless you live in the LA area, probably not worth calling Jim since the poor guy probably can't make it out to Farifax, VA. :)
 
Can we get a cost/feature comparison table going somewhere in this thread? Maybe in the OP's first message?
 
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