Level 2 Charger Confusion

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AV has nothing to do with the IRS. If you install any type of IRS outlined alternative vehicle charging station you are entitled to the IRS credit, you just need a receipt for the expenses. There are no "IRS" approved installer requirements, the IRS only cares you paid for it and it is as stated. Nissan wants to avoid all the issues of people messing up their cars so they make all these compatibility statements. This is all so very silly, does anyone think Nissan and EVSE makers won't all play well together on all levels? It is Nissan's goal to have as many compatible stations everywhere they possibly can no matter what the source, they WANT you to have as many public charging options so they can sell cars and eliminate charging objections. Many business will buy from people like Clipper C and others and it will be a STANDARD. There are new residential EVSE products on the way, I know this as a fact and many more will follow. If you want to wait then use the 120 cord and sign the waiver but don't bother telling Nissan what you intend to do it just makes it more complicated. Remember, there will be EVSE stations all over and Nissan FULLY expects people to plug into them if the cord fits and they don't expect people to check the box for a "Nissan" approved sticker. This entire thing is being blown out of proportion, it is a basic charging cord with a standard communication and this is about not stepping on toes at the moment. If the price makes sense form AV, then get it as it will for many. DIY people will find their own solution.

The IRS docs are available online- nothing stipulates an IRS approved installer as expected
Don't expect to see EVSE units in places that won't work on a Leaf, unlikely unless broken
Expect affordable EVSE options in the private market (not funded programs rushing to use the funds to get paid)
Ask AV for their IRS "certified documents" so you know that you will get the credit and they are "approved"- LOL
 
I tried to email some of the other potential suppliers for EVSEs and got the response below form CliperCreek. Other than the pricing at $3000 which he says has been tested with the Leaf, he does confirm both ClipperCreek, Coulomb and Ecotality will be alternates to the AV EVSE. I wrote back asking about what the $3000 includes but got no response. Does anyone know anything about this CS-40 and the 2900 units he says they have installed? He must know about Nissan's $2200 AV price installed and it's odd he would quote such a high price. I really feel Nissan is blowing it by not clearing this mess up given their marvelous market position. I guess its pretty normal for the industry.

Thank you for your interest in ClipperCreek products.

First, I should correct a few data points you received from the other EVSE OEM.

1) The Federal tax credit goes to whomever installs the EVSE. The property owner usually.
- Any EVSE is capable of getting this tax credit. The credit is for the installation of a system.
2) Nissan is able to provide a free EVSE to some customers in targeted market areas.
- See recent announcements by Ecotality and Coulomb.
- In other markets Nissan is picking suppliers to work with and AV was the first selected.


ClipperCreek does and has been shipping UL Listed Level II EVSEs for months. We have over 2500 units installed since 2009. The price of our CS-40 model which has been tested with the Leaf retails for $3,000.

I have attached a link to our broch... Here's a link to 'ClipperCreek CS EVSE.pdf'

If I can assist you further please let me know.

Regards,

Michael Paritee
Business Operations Manager
ClipperCreek Inc

609.902.0122
[email protected]
 
EVDRIVER said:
..The IRS docs are available online- nothing stipulates an IRS approved installer as expected..
Would you happen to have an IRS form number handy? I'd like to check into the requirement for the EV and EVSE to be purchased the same tax year. I have a small suspicion that even as a very early "reserver", chances are good I won't have a Leaf under the tree in late December.
 
DeaneG said:
EVDRIVER said:
..The IRS docs are available online- nothing stipulates an IRS approved installer as expected..
Would you happen to have an IRS form number handy? I'd like to check into the requirement for the EV and EVSE to be purchased the same tax year. I have a small suspicion that even as a very early "reserver", chances are good I won't have a Leaf under the tree in late December.


Google says- http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f8911.pdf The form is very basic and I suggest you have your tax person put both forms in together to see the result. The rules change each year as well.
 
DeaneG said:
EVDRIVER said:
..The IRS docs are available online- nothing stipulates an IRS approved installer as expected..
Would you happen to have an IRS form number handy? I'd like to check into the requirement for the EV and EVSE to be purchased the same tax year. I have a small suspicion that even as a very early "reserver", chances are good I won't have a Leaf under the tree in late December.
8834 for the car. PDF file: http://www.irs.ustreas.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f8834.pdf
 
Thanks a bunch. Guess it's on off day for me & Google.
I read 8834 and 8911 and did not see anything about the EVSE's installation ("placed in service") needing to be in the same tax year as the EV itself. Looks to me like the two credits are completely separate issues.
 
DeaneG said:
Thanks a bunch. Guess it's on off day for me & Google.
I read 8834 and 8911 and did not see anything about the EVSE's installation ("placed in service") needing to be in the same tax year as the EV itself. Looks to me like the two credits are completely separate issues.


They are separate, that's the reason for two forms but there may be implications of using them together so I would check with your tax person to be sure if use in the same year.
 
I think all the consternation over proving a particular company's EVSE is compatible with the Leaf is a lot of worry over nothing. The companies making them will test them on a Leaf so they can guarantee to YOU that their product won't fry your car. If they don't they won't sell any units. Now if the techie types decide to build their own, no guarantees.

And the installation cost. All the talk about pulling permits and such. Depends on where you live. In my city, you can do your own plumbing and wiring without permits or inspection if it is in your personal residence. You burn your place down and it is your problem. We did our own wiring when we rehabbed the house 19 years ago. It really isn't too hard to shove a wire under a screw and tighten it. And if you don't go through junction boxes (ie dedicated circuit), it is pretty hard to mess up. The complicated part were the lights that could be operated from 4 different switches. Haven't fried anything yet.

My father-in-law held a master electrician's license until a couple of years before we did the work so it wasn't like we were guessing and hoping. Even if you don't have family expertise, it isn't hard to find the code requirements and follow them. We have more outlets than required, 2 circuits in each room in case one trips. The microwave, disposal and whirlpool tub are on their own circuits, etc. The only place you really need a 'pro' is connecting to the meter where the REALLY hot connections are made. I'm pretty sure I am capable of putting in a 240V "breaker to outlet" circuit to charge a car. It is no different than the ones I already put in for the range, dryer and hot water tank.
 
Yes in my county, the homeowner is allowed to do their own wiring subject to final inspection. I had started this thread because the actual cost listed in the San Diego and Tennessee infrastructure documents for EVSE is $780. That price is inline with a rough cost analysis of the EVSE but I was told by AV that only they could install it. No other EVSE supplier, Ecototality, Coulumb, etc. has responded to my questions of self install. I did call my county building department and they affirmed I could do my own wiring and my description of the new 40A breaker, EMT conduit and #8AWG THHN wire was said to be fine for the 32A service. They said a disconnect was not required if I could see my panel which I can.

I'm just trying to determine if any of the EVSE suppliers will allow me to wire the EVSE? The reason is the infrastructure document has a cost analysis of the Level 2 EVSE ( the Level 1 is about the same) where the total cost of material and labor and permit comes to $2272. I purchased the EMT conduit, the THHN wire and 40A breaker for about $75 at Home Depot. I installed it in 2 hours to the location of the EVSE. I left the wiring loose awaiting my assessment. According to the San Diego Infrastructure at $2272 and Nissan $2200 estimate, if I could buy the EVSE at $780, my cost would be the $780+$75+ permit cost. That saves about $1400. In any other case like a 240V stove top, I could buy the stove top and install it plus permit. I just hate to spend $2200 even if the tax credit will pay half. If I install it at $900, then it will cost me $450 after credit. It just seems this EVSE situation is not being treated like any other 240V appliance and its not fair to pay for the excessive installation nor is it fair to have the taxpayers pick up half of a gouged price.

I'm a big proponent of EVs and Solar ( I installed a 12.6KW Solar PV myself) and would hate to see either the Feds or buyers freak out because they are being charged more than is reasonable. Some seem to believe having the Feds pick up 1/2 with the credit is ok, but I don't and I've already talked to people who are upset by the charging chord costing almost 10% of an entire car, when the price is about twice what it should be. This could slow down the EV rollout if this becomes a big issue and I for one, don't want to see that. I know some older people who were VERY excited about the Leaf until they heard about the $2200 ( or more) just to charger it. I would hate to see people back out because of something that could cost $1000 or less.

So I would just like this EVSE treated like any other 240V appliance where I as a homeowner can pull my own permit, buy the EVSE and install it. Maybe it will ultimately be like that but both Nissan and AV were very clear I couldn't. I know its a bit over-discussed but until I pay my $100 for my assessment, I won't really know as Nissan and AV, for now seem stuck.
 
pgrovetom said:
Yes in my county, the homeowner is allowed to do their own wiring subject to final inspection. I had started this thread because the actual cost listed in the San Diego and Tennessee infrastructure documents for EVSE is $780. That price is inline with a rough cost analysis of the EVSE but I was told by AV that only they could install it. No other EVSE supplier, Ecototality, Coulumb, etc. has responded to my questions of self install. I did call my county building department and they affirmed I could do my own wiring and my description of the new 40A breaker, EMT conduit and #8AWG THHN wire was said to be fine for the 32A service. They said a disconnect was not required if I could see my panel which I can.

I'm just trying to determine if any of the EVSE suppliers will allow me to wire the EVSE? The reason is the infrastructure document has a cost analysis of the Level 2 EVSE ( the Level 1 is about the same) where the total cost of material and labor and permit comes to $2272. I purchased the EMT conduit, the THHN wire and 40A breaker for about $75 at Home Depot. I installed it in 2 hours to the location of the EVSE. I left the wiring loose awaiting my assessment. According to the San Diego Infrastructure at $2272 and Nissan $2200 estimate, if I could buy the EVSE at $780, my cost would be the $780+$75+ permit cost. That saves about $1400. In any other case like a 240V stove top, I could buy the stove top and install it plus permit. I just hate to spend $2200 even if the tax credit will pay half. If I install it at $900, then it will cost me $450 after credit. It just seems this EVSE situation is not being treated like any other 240V appliance and its not fair to pay for the excessive installation nor is it fair to have the taxpayers pick up half of a gouged price.

I'm a big proponent of EVs and Solar ( I installed a 12.6KW Solar PV myself) and would hate to see either the Feds or buyers freak out because they are being charged more than is reasonable. Some seem to believe having the Feds pick up 1/2 with the credit is ok, but I don't and I've already talked to people who are upset by the charging chord costing almost 10% of an entire car, when the price is about twice what it should be. This could slow down the EV rollout if this becomes a big issue and I for one, don't want to see that. I know some older people who were VERY excited about the Leaf until they heard about the $2200 ( or more) just to charger it. I would hate to see people back out because of something that could cost $1000 or less.

So I would just like this EVSE treated like any other 240V appliance where I as a homeowner can pull my own permit, buy the EVSE and install it. Maybe it will ultimately be like that but both Nissan and AV were very clear I couldn't. I know its a bit over-discussed but until I pay my $100 for my assessment, I won't really know as Nissan and AV, for now seem stuck.


Even after the work you did, if the EVSE sold for $1k retail then the most you should pay is $1500 TOP as that would cover the low labor portion of the install, etc.
 
Not true...I guess you forgot about the EV Project? A lot of us will be able to receive a FREE charging station.

That would be nice but I signed up for the EV project ( which uses Ecotality not AV EVSEs ) but I don't live in a listed city or county. I'm hoping they extend it but I'm not holding my breath? Has anyone actually heard from the EV Project? I got an email from the Sr VP of Sales at Coulomb to call him but I got voicemail. I also checked again with my dealer who has been left in the dark but is asking around. Hopefully when the time comes, an EVSE can be bought and installed for less than $1000.

I looked at the NEC rules for sub panel loading and if anyone needs to upgrade their panel, this could be expensive. I sure hope it doesn't become the Achilles heal of the mass market EV. That would be awful. In a new home it would be easy and cheap but a retrofit might hurt.

By the way, the Level 1 EVSE doesn't have an inexpensive EVSE and also requires a dedicated new circuit. So even if you fall back on the 115V Level 1 EVSE, you still need a a newly installed dedicated 20A circuit installed just for the EVSE but it does just plug into a standard outlet. That installation won't be much cheaper. The only savings is the EVSE is a little simpler and it can be wired with a 20A breaker and Romex but from a labor point of view, that will still take some time from an electrician. It's not free.
 
pgrovetom said:
By the way, the Level 1 EVSE doesn't have an inexpensive EVSE and also requires a dedicated new circuit. So even if you fall back on the 115V Level 1 EVSE, you still need a a newly installed dedicated 20A circuit installed just for the EVSE but it does just plug into a standard outlet. That installation won't be much cheaper. The only savings is the EVSE is a little simpler and it can be wired with a 20A breaker and Romex but from a labor point of view, that will still take some time from an electrician. It's not free.

But, since it can be plugged in anywhere - people are going to do just that. L-1 EVSE needs to handle that, right ...
 
pgrovetom said:
By the way, the Level 1 EVSE doesn't have an inexpensive EVSE and also requires a dedicated new circuit. So even if you fall back on the 115V Level 1 EVSE, you still need a a newly installed dedicated 20A circuit installed just for the EVSE but it does just plug into a standard outlet. That installation won't be much cheaper. The only savings is the EVSE is a little simpler and it can be wired with a 20A breaker and Romex but from a labor point of view, that will still take some time from an electrician. It's not free.

Please explain why you believe any of us will need to plug the L1 EVSE into a specially installed 20A 120V outlet. Please?
 
I suspect the "included" 120v EVSE will have a 12 amp "max" setting, so that it will be "legal" to use from a typical existing socket on a 15-amp breaker.

The AV "assessment" guy just wanted to see an existing "nearby" 120v outlet (for testing the LEAF with the non-AV 120v EVSE). He did not even suggest a dedicated 20-amp 120v circuit.

He suggested using a GFI socket there (even though the 120v EVSE should contain one, he said).

Of course, the 12-amp charging load, on a circuit shared with other ON loads, could still "blow" the breaker.

Presumably, L1 charging could be done at (at least) 15 amps, but a 20-amp breaker should then be used, to be legal.
 
pgrovetom said:
I looked at the NEC rules for sub panel loading and if anyone needs to upgrade their panel, this could be expensive.
Can you say more about this? My panel is maxed out, but my meter with main line switch is only a couple of feet from where I want the EVSE, and my solar system also ties in there. I am hoping I can install a sub panel connected behind the main line switch, either in parallel with the main panel or feeding through to it. Taking my solar system into account I am nowhere close to being maxed out at the meter.
 
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