2012 Leaf: what range should Nissan reps use when asked about its range on single 100% charge

Poll ended at Fri Jan 25, 2013 9:21 am

100 miles
No votes
0
73 miles (EPA-rated range)
62%
42
some value between 80 and 89 miles
3%
2
some value between 70 and 79 miles
9%
6
some value between 60 and 69 miles
12%
8
some value between 50 and 59 miles
4%
3
some value between 40 and 49 miles
No votes
0
other
10%
7
 
Total votes: 68
cwerdna
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Poll: '12 Leaf range Nissan reps should tell people?

Wed Jan 09, 2013 9:24 pm

For the '12 Leaf, what do you think is the "right" range Nissan reps should tell the general public when asked about its range on single 100% charge?

Tony Williams and I have encountered Nissan reps at auto shows in late 2012 still telling people the range of the '12 Leaf is "100 miles average" or "100 miles, on average". See below.

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.p ... 84#p246184" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.p ... 97#p254197" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Poll will be open for 2 weeks.
Last edited by cwerdna on Thu Jan 10, 2013 2:58 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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NoMoShocks
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Re: '12 Leaf range Nissan reps should tell people?

Wed Jan 09, 2013 9:47 pm

Some value between 60 and 69 miles!
In consideration that people will want to drive it in the winter time, without freezing to death, and with windows defrosted so they don't have a wreck.

If the EPA found 73, that seem fairly close to accurate. But less than 70 is even more accurate.

cwerdna
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Re: '12 Leaf range Nissan reps should tell people?

Wed Jan 09, 2013 9:51 pm

NoMoShocks wrote: If the EPA found 73, that seem fairly close to accurate. But less than 70 is even more accurate.
Yes. EPA lists 73 miles at http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/evsbs.shtml" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

Nissan lists ranges for a variety of scenarios at http://www.nissanusa.com/leaf-electric-car/range" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. The Leaf range page looked very different early on and during the '11 model year, but I think the scenarios and ranges listed were the same.

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RegGuheert
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Re: '12 Leaf range Nissan reps should tell people?

Thu Jan 10, 2013 7:08 am

I think they should communicate the EPA range of 73 miles, since that allows the LEAF to be compared to other EVs.

I also think the new battery capacity warranty helps consumers to see that the range might drop fairly significantly. But since most LEAF buyers are first-time EV owners I do not think that is enough. Nissan should provide a brochure for LEAF prospects which helps them to make an educated decision to help ensure that they are happy with their purchase for many years. This brochure should discuss the impacts of temperature (high and low) on the LEAF experience as well as issues such as charging strategies and range anxiety and the need for some reserve at the end of each trip. (A legal disclosure is NOT a substitute for a glossy brochure which is engaging and will actually educate customers.) The brochure should make it clear that the Nissan LEAF will NOT be a good fit for all customers depending upon their climate, driving needs, expectations and driving style.

The approaches of the past whereby Nissan told anyone with a commute up to the EPA range they were a good candidate for the LEAF should be completely abandoned.
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SalisburySam
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Re: '12 Leaf range Nissan reps should tell people?

Thu Jan 10, 2013 7:49 am

NoMoShocks wrote:Some value between 60 and 69 miles!
In consideration that people will want to drive it in the winter time, without freezing to death, and with windows defrosted so they don't have a wreck.

If the EPA found 73, that seem fairly close to accurate. But less than 70 is even more accurate.
+1!

Since Winter has firmly arrived here in Ohio, my range seems to have evaporated. Cabin heat, defrost, seats, steering wheel, pre-heats, all in use. I haven't driven to VLBW yet, but would be surprised if I'd get 60 miles from an 80% battery charge.
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edatoakrun
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Re: '12 Leaf range Nissan reps should tell people?

Thu Jan 10, 2013 7:56 am

cwerdna wrote:
NoMoShocks wrote: If the EPA found 73, that seem fairly close to accurate. But less than 70 is even more accurate.
Yes. EPA lists 73 miles at http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/evsbs.shtml" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

Nissan lists ranges for a variety of scenarios at http://www.nissanusa.com/leaf-electric-car/range" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. The Leaf range page looked very different early on and during the '11 model year, but I think the scenarios and ranges listed were the same.
Yes they were the same. I considered them very carefully, as I my driving range needs were towards the maximum available from the LEAF. These range estimates also were on the disclosure papers every LEAF buyer and Lessee signed before taking delivery. I took a few minutes to read the paperwork before I signed. Sorry to hear that so many apparently did not, relying instead on a salesperson's or auto show representative's verbal statements.

And they were, and are IMO, conservative estimates reflecting "average" driving techniques, not hypermiling.
Cross-town commute on a hot day

Distance: 68 miles
Speed: Average 49 mph
Temperature: 110 degrees
Climate control: On
Driving from a rural area into the city at an average 49 mph with the a/c on high may produce this range. Under these conditions, climate control combined with higher-speed driving produces increased energy consumption, hence the effect on range.
If those of you in very hot climates feel Nissan "lied" to you about range, you might have considered checking your own LEAFs against this range estimate last Summer. I'm fairly sure my LEAF could have done it over both the Summer of 2011 and 2012, though the logistics of this test would be tough for me, as it only gets that hot a few days of the year near my home.

BTW, my Lease paperwork also shows a range, 55 mph average highway, at 95 degree F, AC on, of 70 miles, which is NOT posted at the Nissan site above.

This might be an easier range test for LEAF owners to replicate in a much broader range of climates, if they really want to see how much range they have lost from what Nissan promised them.

You may recall that nine of the 12 Arizona Test LEAFs exceeded 70 miles in a very roughly equivalent range test (higher speed, but no AC), including two LEAFs that had only 9 capacity bars showing.

http://mynissanleaf.com/wiki/index.php? ... acity_Loss" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Stoaty
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Re: '12 Leaf range Nissan reps should tell people?

Thu Jan 10, 2013 8:16 am

For truth in advertising, they should be limited to telling people the average is the EPA range of 73 miles. Fine to add in the scenarios, but they should also add scenarios for 3 years later and 5 years later for full disclosure.
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KJD
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Re: '12 Leaf range Nissan reps should tell people?

Thu Jan 10, 2013 8:21 am

I agree they should use the EPA range of 73 miles.

In order for the market to be fair all EV companies should be limited to claiming the EPA range only.
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cyellen
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Re: '12 Leaf range Nissan reps should tell people?

Thu Jan 10, 2013 8:23 am

Use the EPA rating along with "your actual mileage may vary based on how you drive." This is not that complicated.
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edatoakrun
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Re: '12 Leaf range Nissan reps should tell people?

Thu Jan 10, 2013 8:32 am

KJD wrote:I agree they should use the EPA range of 73 miles.

In order for the market to be fair all EV companies should be limited to claiming the EPA range only.
The problem with that is that we all know just how much the range varies in varying conditions, something ICEV and hybrid drivers are not accustomed to.

I tell people the practical range (which I consider to be to ~VLBW, not to "turtle") is ~60 to ~80 miles under all but extreme speed and temperature conditions.

It would probably be wise for Nissan to adopt a general statement like that, rather than quote a single number of miles as "the" range, IMO.
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