LeftieBiker
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Re: 2017 Prius Prime PHEV

Tue Dec 11, 2018 11:15 pm

RonDawg wrote:
LeftieBiker wrote:It will be interesting to see in the Toyo Celsius 4 season Winter tires solve the above problem. They would be best for those who travel to the mountains a LOT, of course.
This review seems to like them a lot: https://www.autotrader.ca/newsfeatures/ ... -part-two/
When my housemate retired and was no longer driving a lot, especially not 44 miles RT, I suggested we retire her all season and snow tires and go with these. They haven't been severely tested, but they seem fine both in snow and in Summer. The one thing I dislike about them is that, on the Gen III Prius at least, they don't want to self-center after turns. They don't have to be wrestled back, but you do want to turn the wheel deliberately. She doesn't notice or mind that, because she always maintains a white-knuckle-grip on the wheel while driving. ;-)
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SageBrush
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Re: 2017 Prius Prime PHEV

Wed Dec 12, 2018 8:29 am

I had to look up the 'M+S' * designation; it stands for snow and mud. I gather that it is a 1970's era attempt at a winter tyre and has been superseded for a long time by much better winter tyres designated by a snowflake inside a 3 peak mountain outline. I'll take real winter tyres over AWD+ (S+M) any day for safety but from googling it seems to be mostly true that AWD with (M+S) tyres will be allowed on R2 roads. This appears to be at the discretion of the inspector.

The posts that point out that winter tyres are a less than stellar choice as an all season due to increased wear and somewhat reduced summer handling are right; they are meant to be used in winter conditions of cold and/or ice and/or snow.

Personally I'll take safety over a little inconvenience hands down. It takes me about 30 minutes to swap tyre sets so I figure on 1-2 hours a year for safety. Can you say no-brainer ? People should at a minimum understand that AWD will aid in getting a car going or go up a hill in low traction conditions but do ~ nothing to help the car slow down or go around curves. An (M+S) tyre is a lousy, deprecated 'all season' tyre that regulations have not discarded due to public demand for convenience.

* Per Goodyear Europe, on M+S (my bolding) https://www.goodyear.eu/corporate_emea/ ... nition.jsp
Mud and Snow” (either marked as M+S, M.S or M&S) has been used to indicate winter tires for many years. Although M+S has a legal definition*, it is not related to minimum performance requirements but has been widely used by tire manufacturers to indicate winter products. M+S remains a permitted marking but while M+S tires have better snow traction than regular tires, they do not necessarily pass the legal snow grip threshold.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
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GRA
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Re: 2017 Prius Prime PHEV

Wed Dec 12, 2018 5:51 pm

RonDawg wrote:
GRA wrote:Sounds like 395's as bad as I-80 as far as chains. I could see there might be problems over Deadman summit (8,047') north of Mammoth, although I'd think descending Sherwin summit (6,426) north of Bishop going south would be worse if there's snow.
The section between the Mammoth Lakes turnoff and Deadman Summit is worse because that stretch of roadway is perpetually shaded by trees. Very scenic, but in winter can be treacherous as the snow takes forever to melt. It often will have R2 restrictions well after even R1 is lifted elsewhere.
That's what I was thinking.
RonDawg wrote:Sherwin Grade is steeper but snow/ice melt quickly as it's almost all exposed to the sun.
Come to think of it, Conway Summit north of Lee Vining is probably much worse than Sherwin, as it's higher (8,143', the highest point anywhere on 395) and also has some tight curves, although it's about as exposed as Sherwin. Nice view of Mono Lake from the Vista Point though, although for me the view after crossing Monitor Pass east/south bound is the best of all. You come around a corner and this large walled valley to the south is displayed for you, with IIRR just one house in the whole thing: https://www.google.com/maps/@38.6698314 ... 312!8i6656

Monitor itself reminds me of parts of Colorado, as it has Aspens growing right over the pass even though you're on the western edge of the Great Basin.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

RonDawg
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Re: 2017 Prius Prime PHEV

Wed Dec 12, 2018 6:13 pm

SageBrush wrote:Personally I'll take safety over a little inconvenience hands down. It takes me about 30 minutes to swap tyre sets so I figure on 1-2 hours a year for safety. Can you say no-brainer ? People should at a minimum understand that AWD will aid in getting a car going or go up a hill in low traction conditions but do ~ nothing to help the car slow down or go around curves. An (M+S) tyre is a lousy, deprecated 'all season' tyre that regulations have not discarded due to public demand for convenience.
Again, that's easy to say in Colorado, where winter temps remain low enough for true winter tires to be safe to use the entire season. But for most Californians, that's a poor option even if you don't mind swapping tires (and have the room to store them). For example, Mammoth is a 5 hour drive from my home, and it will take me at least 2.5 hours to get to a high enough elevation where winter tires will not be a handicap. Big Bear is only 2 hours away, but even Big Bear can get into the 60's in the winter.

For Bay Area people wanting to go to Tahoe, you'll need to get at least as far as Placerville on US 50, or well east of Auburn on I-80, for the temperature to drop enough to a winter tire's ideal temperature range.

The delta between "all weather" tires (all seasons with the "mountain and snowlake" symbol) and true winter/true summer is getting less and less. Consumer Reports found two that in their testing out-performed some true winter tires:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0JfEcVZvQEA

These are TireRack's tests of 3 different all weather tires vs. a major-brand all season that despite the lack of a "mountain and snowflake" symbol did very well in snow:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ehMGZz5Qhmo&t=146s
Blue Ocean 2012 Leaf SV, lost that 1st bar at 34 months/26,435 miles. Lease returned 2 months later. Final LeafStat figures: 225 Gids, 17.44 kWH, SOC 91.89%, SOH 82.36%, 69.49% HX, 54.57 Ahr, battery temp 61.8 F.
Now driving a 2015 VW eGolf SEL.

GRA
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Re: 2017 Prius Prime PHEV

Wed Dec 12, 2018 6:52 pm

RonDawg wrote:
SageBrush wrote:Personally I'll take safety over a little inconvenience hands down. <snip>
Again, that's easy to say in Colorado, where winter temps remain low enough for true winter tires to be safe to use the entire season. But for most Californians, that's a poor option even if you don't mind swapping tires (and have the room to store them). For example, Mammoth is a 5 hour drive from my home, and it will take me at least 2.5 hours to get to a high enough elevation where winter tires will not be a handicap. Big Bear is only 2 hours away, but even Big Bear can get into the 60's in the winter.

For Bay Area people wanting to go to Tahoe, you'll need to get at least as far as Placerville on US 50, or well east of Auburn on I-80, for the temperature to drop enough to a winter tire's ideal temperature range.
Yup, Colfax (2,420', 135 miles from S.F. Donner Summit ski resorts are about 170, and Truckee is 185) is about as far down as the snow line usually gets, and typically it's further east at Baxter (3,891'), Blue Canyon (4,695'), Kingvale (6,118') or even beyond. If it's snowing at the resorts, it's often raining most of the way there, and you're traveling a lot faster in the rain than you are on snow-covered roads. So, which is more dangerous, driving 135-165 miles in rain on winter tires on the occasional ski trip (plus all the rest of the time in the rain) and 5-50 miles on snow, or doing that on all-seasons? For me, all-seasons are the safer choice - I and everyone around me isn't driving 60-65 mph on snow, but we are on wet roads when all-season tires provide better grip than winter tires. I'll happily trade avoiding a 30 mph crash on a snowy road, if it means I can avoid a 60+ mph crash on a rainy one.

Put me in a location where snow is on the roads for most of the winter as is presumably the case with Sagebrush, and my choice would be the same as his.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

SageBrush
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Re: 2017 Prius Prime PHEV

Thu Dec 13, 2018 5:19 am

RonDawg wrote:[
The delta between "all weather" tires (all seasons with the "mountain and snowlake" symbol) and true winter/true summer is getting less and less. Consumer Reports found two that in their testing out-performed some true winter tires:
You are talking about tyres with a snow grip rated performance (good) and the other guy is talking about 'M+S' tyres (bad.)
You should also consider the rolling resistance and tire wear of your convenience tyres. Don't expect a free lunch.

Personally, if I lived in a year round temperate climate and had to solve a few days a year of trips to the snow I would buy a set of easy to apply and remove tyre 'chains.'
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/2018: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
-----
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RonDawg
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Re: 2017 Prius Prime PHEV

Thu Dec 13, 2018 7:26 am

SageBrush wrote:
RonDawg wrote:[
The delta between "all weather" tires (all seasons with the "mountain and snowlake" symbol) and true winter/true summer is getting less and less. Consumer Reports found two that in their testing out-performed some true winter tires:
You are talking about tyres with a snow grip rated performance (good) and the other guy is talking about 'M+S' tyres (bad.)
You should also consider the rolling resistance and tire wear of your convenience tyres. Don't expect a free lunch.
Not all M+S tires are “bad.” In the Tire Rack test, the Pirelli Cinturato P7 did remarkably well in the snow, even better than the “all weather” Vredestein or the Michelin, despite the lack of a “mountain and snowflake” symbol. TR even points out that the symbol (or lack thereof) is not the final say in a tire’s performance.

Consumer Reports gave the Pirelli a good or very good rating all around, with noise level in the “excellent” category, and what CR believes will have a 70k mile tread life based on their testing. I’d link the results from CR but you need a subscription to view it.
Personally, if I lived in a year round temperate climate and had to solve a few days a year of trips to the snow I would buy a set of easy to apply and remove tyre 'chains.'
And that’s how most Californians deal with the issue.
Blue Ocean 2012 Leaf SV, lost that 1st bar at 34 months/26,435 miles. Lease returned 2 months later. Final LeafStat figures: 225 Gids, 17.44 kWH, SOC 91.89%, SOH 82.36%, 69.49% HX, 54.57 Ahr, battery temp 61.8 F.
Now driving a 2015 VW eGolf SEL.

GRA
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Re: 2017 Prius Prime PHEV

Thu Dec 13, 2018 4:47 pm

RonDawg wrote:
SageBrush wrote:
Personally, if I lived in a year round temperate climate and had to solve a few days a year of trips to the snow I would buy a set of easy to apply and remove tyre 'chains.'
And that’s how most Californians deal with the issue.
Although 'easy to apply' often isn't, especially when conditions are bad, esp. mixed rain/snow. And sometimes you have to do it multiple times per trip, which is why so many of us who would otherwise use chains opt for 4/AWD w/M+S tires. I have V-Bar chains, because if I think I need chains (or R3 is set) I want max grip, and cable chains aren't in the same league.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

SageBrush
Posts: 4759
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: NM

Re: 2017 Prius Prime PHEV

Thu Dec 13, 2018 5:26 pm

GRA wrote: ... which is why so many of us who would otherwise use chains opt for 4/AWD w/M+S tires..
I understand -- you choose a dangerous solution out of laziness.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/2018: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

GRA
Posts: 10888
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: 2017 Prius Prime PHEV

Thu Dec 13, 2018 5:43 pm

SageBrush wrote:
GRA wrote: ... which is why so many of us who would otherwise use chains opt for 4/AWD w/M+S tires..
I understand -- you choose a dangerous solution out of laziness.
A slightly more risky solution, out of a desire not to waste time or energy. As I've not had an accident in 30 years now while driving on snow/ice-covered roads (or dry or wet ones FTM, the most common situation), I'm satisfied with my decision. You are free to make a different one.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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