people getting rid of their Leafs/EVs/PHEVs and going back to ICEVs

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cwerdna

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 3, 2011
Messages
13,671
Location
SF Bay Area, CA
Related to another thread (http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=21236), I don't think we had one on this subject. Please post your stories of people who got rid of their Leafs (mainly) or have some other EV/PHEV and don't care to continue with EVs/PHEVs.

I posted about this guy at my work at least twice:
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=405162#p405162
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=21120&p=446797&hilit=4runner#p446797

He couldn't be more glad to get rid of his Leaf (he turned it in early). He used to sometimes drive a Porsche 911, as well.

He replaced the Leaf w/a 4Runner but I don't know what he regularly drives to work now. Since he had an '11 or '12 Leaf, he had crap instrumentation (i.e no % SoC display, only the crap GOM and 12 fuel bars). I found out that it he was suffering from range anxiety (possibly) due to capacity loss and likely instrumentation (causing unnecessary range anxiety). I know which city he lives in but don't know the exact distance to work. It should be somewhere between 23 and 27 miles one way to work, almost all highway and we have free L2 charging @ work.

For awhile, his wife had been using the Leaf to commute (much further), where it's probably 42 - 45 miles to work (since I know the approx location of his wife's work), one way, almost all highway. L2 charging availability and reliability isn't that best at his wife's work. I believe the capacity loss/range anxiety/charging availability at work made it unsuitable for her, eventually.

He didn't know about gids. He couldn't tell me how many capacity bars he lost and I don't know the details of his range anxiety. We work at a tech company, BTW. I didn't know he got rid of it until 1-2 months after the fact.

My work and where he lives are hotter parts of the South Bay, so I wouldn't be surprised if he was down 1-2, possibly as many as 3 capacity bars at his early turn in.

There's another guy @ work in that group who has a Volt. Long ago, I found he isn't driving it anymore and prefers the luxury of his (or his wife's) Lexus RX SUV. He then loaned the Volt to his mother-in-law. Sounds like she'll have it for probably the rest of the lease. He just doesn't care about the Volt or PHEVs. When the '16 Volt details came out, I asked him if he knew about it/cared. Nope. It sounds like he has no plans to get one either.

Here on MNL, we've had numerous other horror stories of people who were steered into Leafs but it turned out to be totally unsuitable for them (e.g. a Chicago woman w/pretty much no charging @ home).
 
Not sure if I qualify. I love having a BEV. But don't like how expensive leases and purchase is right now. The Chevy Bolt sounds perfect but I'm debating how to bridge to it. Either try and extend our lease again and hope the Bolt is available in time, while assuming the risk of an out of warranty LEAF, or get an ICE. Right now we're leaning towards getting an ICE. Debating between a Mini Cooper (fun, marginally practical), or a Golf (good prices these days but situation will keep getting worse for VW for a while).
 
BTW, I forgot to mention, the 1st guy w/the Leaf has mentioned on/off wanting to get a Model S, but AFAIK he still hasn't ordered.

Long ago, I'd sent him examples of Model S unreliability, esp. the drive units (and those in the Rav4 EV, as well). So, I guess for him, the long range and maybe the prestige of a Model S is enough?
 
I turned in my LEAF after 3 years and 8 months (extended the lease, but couldn't justify continuing to pay $325/mo for a car that is almost 4 years old). Now I'm back to driving my gas car that I had mothballed during the lease (2006 Ford Crown Victoria Police Interceptor).

There are too few options at the moment. It's either continue my extended lease (not economical), or turn in my LEAF and buy/lease an obsolete, soon to be obsolete, or not available car. Let's review my practical options of electrically dominant cars that don't completely suck:

Used LEAF (cheap, but need $5500 in new battery soon, not a whole lot of range compared to 2017)
Used Volt (cheap, plentiful, not a bad option)
New LEAF (too expensive, soon to be obsolete, ridiculously high residual means expensive lease)
New Volt (only up to 2015, 2016 not available here in Michigan, 2017 won't be out until Spring)
Used Ford Focus Electric (cheap, batteries seem to hold up well, but lousy range, frustrating infotainment, not reliable)
New Ford Focus Electric (same as used, minus infotainment issues if you get a 2016).
New i3 (can get "cheap" low-mileage leases, but still out of my budget).
Used i3 (not widely available here).

That's it. There are no Soul EVs, no Spark EVs, no e-Golfs, no 500e. My best choice right now is a used Volt. Since gas is cheap, I figure I could wait a little bit longer and they will just get cheaper. And if I'm waiting a little longer, I might as well wait a full year and see if I can get a 200-mile Bolt or LEAF.
 
kubel said:
Used LEAF (cheap, but need $5500 in new battery soon, not a whole lot of range compared to 2017)
Used Leafs were cheap and don't necessarily need a new battery "soon". My $9,325 + tax and license '13 Leaf SV w/premium (build date 5/2013) still has all capacity bars and is still hovering between 89 to 91% Hx and SOH per LeafSpy. Unfortunately, the prices went up after I got mine. Not sure where they stand now.

If you get one from the Pacific Northwest, it'll be more $ but be even in better shape, in terms of battery.

True re: the last part...
 
cwerdna said:
My $9,325 + tax and license '13 Leaf SV w/premium (build date 5/2013) still has all capacity bars and is still hovering between 89 to 91% Hx and SOH per LeafSpy.

I'm guessing your car was sheltered and has very low miles. Depending on where you live and how you drive it now, you may need a new battery in just 4 years.

My 2012 LEAF was at 80% SOH after 41,500 miles when I turned it in last week. I'm guessing by the 6th year I would be at around 70% SOH and would have been shopping around for a new battery. Probably sooner if I was driving 15,000 miles/year like I was for the first 2 years.
 
this is the norm when gas prices are down. I see it as a temporary retreat. yes, this dip has lasted longer than ones in the recent past but I have too much faith in Mankind's ability to screw something up and drive prices back up again



http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com/2016/01/are-we-blowing-our-chance-to-take.html
 
Count me in. I'm moving to an A3 E Tron. So, still a plug, but not much EV range. I commute by bike, so most trips are short and the car comes right back home, so I still forecast a lot of EV miles driven, but it sure won't be 100% anymore.

That new Chrysler minivan looks damn nice, but it's Chrysler and a brand new model. More than likely that thing has the reliability of a... Fiat. I'll be happy with my A3 until the field really opens up in a couple years.
 
People like me want to hold out and see what's coming just around the corner. We know the 2017 Volt will go nationwide in a few months. We know the Bolt will be out in less than a year. We know the IDS will likely become a 2017 LEAF in probably about a year.

This is the worst time to be trapped in a 3 year lease. It's even a terrible time to be trapped in a 2 year lease (if you can find one that doesn't break the bank). And since you're buying an end-of-production car, it would make a terrible time to buy a car for long term ownership, unless you can find a wicked deal. A lease transfer or a used car is really the only practical option right now.

I can say this: I don't think I will ever buy a car unless it has a plug and it's electrically dominant. I don't see how anyone could go back to an ICE after experiencing electric drive. Unless I'm buying a fun car. An MX5 is on my wishlist. But otherwise, a plug is in my future.
 
I think there will be plenty of older used leafs with brand new batteries. There are a bunch of 11's that are qualifying right now then the 12's and so on. Those will all make cheaper short term (or long term) vehicles to fill the void to the next newer cars due on the market. I would never go back to ICE. That is, in my mind, the stupidest thing that myself or others would do. There might only be a couple of good exceptions to that thinking. You and your job are further apart and there is no charging at work and/or no QC to go the distance. You don't have any money coming off lease to buy new/used or lease another electric, so you flop back into your gasser that is still sitting around, until you can raise the funds.
 
DaveinOlyWA said:
this is the norm when gas prices are down.
For the two cases I cited, it had nothing to do w/gas prices and they weren't that low. The guy that was glad to have gotten rid of his Leaf I removed from our EV list at work at end of Oct 2014. It'd been gone for 1-2 months already. Per http://www.sanjosegasprices.com/Retail_Price_Chart.aspx, during around that time, regular gas in my area was averaging between $3.70 and $3.88/gal.

The guy w/the Volt I knew about him for months, WAY before this gas price drop. I don't remember the approximate time but can ask.
 
kubel said:
cwerdna said:
My $9,325 + tax and license '13 Leaf SV w/premium (build date 5/2013) still has all capacity bars and is still hovering between 89 to 91% Hx and SOH per LeafSpy.

I'm guessing your car was sheltered and has very low miles. Depending on where you live and how you drive it now, you may need a new battery in just 4 years.
Mileage wasn't that low and my climate isn't that ideal compared to the Pacific Northwest (e.g. Seattle area).

I posted stats of the '13 Leaf I returned and the one I bought at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=431208#p431208.

Whoops, I was slightly off on what I stated earlier. I have a screenshot from 1/10/16 (will take another reading tonight) showing
Miles: 29,054
Ahr=60.36
SOH=92%
Hx=92.54%

There are some folks on https://www.facebook.com/groups/seattlenissanleaf/ asserting that the '13 Leaf batteries (probably past a certain month) are holding up much better than any '11s or '12s. There's a claim there that they know of some '13s with past 75K miles that still have all capacity bars and that never happened w/'11s and '12s up there.

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=449455#p449455 shows amazingly good stats, but it makes me question the validity/accuracy of Ahr, SOH and Hx readings in certain (many?) circumstances. NegativeCarbon's Leaf was (IIRC) bought in December 2013 and built just a few weeks earlier. AFAIK, he resided in northern NY before he embarked on his 48 state drive.

But yeah, it's possible for me that in 4 years, my battery may be degraded to the point where its range autonomy is too poor for my uses.
kubel said:
My 2012 LEAF was at 80% SOH after 41,500 miles when I turned it in last week. I'm guessing by the 6th year I would be at around 70% SOH and would have been shopping around for a new battery. Probably sooner if I was driving 15,000 miles/year like I was for the first 2 years.
Yeah, you obviously had more miles than mine and your car's older.
 
cwerdna said:
kubel said:
cwerdna said:
My $9,325 + tax and license '13 Leaf SV w/premium (build date 5/2013) still has all capacity bars and is still hovering between 89 to 91% Hx and SOH per LeafSpy.

I'm guessing your car was sheltered and has very low miles. Depending on where you live and how you drive it now, you may need a new battery in just 4 years.
Mileage wasn't that low and my climate isn't that ideal compared to the Pacific Northwest (e.g. Seattle area).

I posted stats of the '13 Leaf I returned and the one I bought at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=431208#p431208.

Whoops, I was slightly off on what I stated earlier. I have a screenshot from 1/10/16 (will take another reading tonight) showing
Miles: 29,054
Ahr=60.36
SOH=92%
Hx=92.54%

There are some folks on https://www.facebook.com/groups/seattlenissanleaf/ asserting that the '13 Leaf batteries (probably past a certain month) are holding up much better than any '11s or '12s. There's a claim there that they know of some '13s with past 75K miles that still have all capacity bars and that never happened w/'11s and '12s up there.

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=449455#p449455 shows amazingly good stats, but it makes me question the validity/accuracy of Ahr, SOH and Hx readings in certain (many?) circumstances. NegativeCarbon's Leaf was (IIRC) bought in December 2013 and built just a few weeks earlier. AFAIK, he resided in northern NY before he embarked on his 48 state drive.

But yeah, it's possible for me that in 4 years, my battery may be degraded to the point where its range autonomy is too poor for my uses.
kubel said:
My 2012 LEAF was at 80% SOH after 41,500 miles when I turned it in last week. I'm guessing by the 6th year I would be at around 70% SOH and would have been shopping around for a new battery. Probably sooner if I was driving 15,000 miles/year like I was for the first 2 years.
Yeah, you obviously had more miles than mine and your car's older.


Negative Carbon told me that he has three bad cells. He also told that to a Nissan Regional Manager and wanted replacement of those three cells. I didn't ascertain if he accurately knew what he was talking about.
 
cwerdna said:
My $9,325 + tax and license '13 Leaf SV w/premium (build date 5/2013) still has all capacity bars and is still hovering between 89 to 91% Hx and SOH per LeafSpy.
cwerdna said:
Mileage wasn't that low and my climate isn't that ideal compared to the Pacific Northwest (e.g. Seattle area).

I posted stats of the '13 Leaf I returned and the one I bought at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=431208#p431208.

Whoops, I was slightly off on what I stated earlier. I have a screenshot from 1/10/16 (will take another reading tonight) showing
Miles: 29,054
Ahr=60.36
SOH=92%
Hx=92.54%
The above was taken after some driving. Was charged to 100% on the afternoon of 1/9/15. Was some more charging (probably not to 100%) that evening.

Interestingly, my stats tonight (1/19/16) are these:
Miles: 29,380
Ahr=58.85
SOH=89%
Hx=89.49%

This was after a charge only to 80% and a bunch of driving. There was a charge to 100% (w/bounces all done) on Friday 1/15/16. Over the weekend, I charged a few times but definitely not to 100%.
 
cwerdna said:
Interestingly, my stats tonight (1/19/16) are these:
Miles: 29,380
Ahr=58.85
SOH=89%
Hx=89.49%

My stats are nearly identical. Since May of 2015 when I first started tracking via Leafspy, my 2013 Leaf has only dropped from 58.64 amp hours to 58.2. Not bad considering I live in Sacramento in a very hot climate.

But this thread is about going back to a gas car. I may go back to driving my SUV temporarily until I can get a good deal on a 200 mile EV after my lease is up in January 2017. But I'm sold on the quiet, non-polluting, torquey and nearly maintenance-free ride.
 
cwerdna said:
DaveinOlyWA said:
this is the norm when gas prices are down.
For the two cases I cited, it had nothing to do w/gas prices and they weren't that low. The guy that was glad to have gotten rid of his Leaf I removed from our EV list at work at end of Oct 2014. It'd been gone for 1-2 months already. Per http://www.sanjosegasprices.com/Retail_Price_Chart.aspx, during around that time, regular gas in my area was averaging between $3.70 and $3.88/gal.

The guy w/the Volt I knew about him for months, WAY before this gas price drop. I don't remember the approximate time but can ask.

my comment was more a generalization than anything but I am seeing people disillusioned about EV tech mostly because of the continuing lack of support.

We still have BS hoops for charging stations to build (proven by the fact that Tesla built theirs out with little opposition including SCs in MI) and ICEing, etc.

Too many feel they are using alien technology. Its like wearing a Seahawks Jersey to a 49er game. it doesn't matter how right it is when you are an island in the ocean... (ok, maybe the 49ers were not the best example but you know what I mean)
 
I looked at the subcompact Honda Fit vs my Mercedes B. Using 2.5KW per mile and my electric rates at .18 per KWH after all costs added and Consumer Reports 30 MPG for the Fit I get my cost at 12.5 cents per mile vs the Fit at 8.33 cents per mile. The B is a good car for comparison since the efficiency meter shows charging power. Tony Williams says to multiply it by 1.2 to compare to other cars. That assumes the gas cost is $2.50 per gallon. Gas is expensive in Southern California.

On an absolute basis switching to a Fit makes sense but going from a luxury car to a subcompact will not work for me. A more efficient car like the Leaf is likely a wash.

I can live with higher costs for my car. After 13 months I still love it. I know it is large and heavy but so what.

Anaheim has no tiers and I do not have Solar power. Both charging at reduced rates or Solar would reduce my rates. I am in a Townhouse surrounded with trees on common property so Solar is not the answer for me. The PUC is trying to pressure Anaheim's Utility into tiers so maybe someday I can charge late at night cheaper.
 
The early adopter penalty lease price left a bad taste in my mouth. I often wonder what was I thinking: $18k in lease payments to drive a car for three years and give it back to them. Not to mention the Leaf cost more to insure. Now for $50/month less I've got a car that will be paid off after the same three years. True I'm spending $55/month for gas instead of $28 for the electric but somehow I'll live. Not to mention I can drive it longer distances and I don't have to think about lease miles or worry about having to pay for a little scratch or dent.
 
LTLFTcomposite said:
The early adopter penalty lease price left a bad taste in my mouth. I often wonder what was I thinking: $18k in lease payments to drive a car for three years and give it back to them. Not to mention the Leaf cost more to insure. Now for $50/month less I've got a car that will be paid off after the same three years. True I'm spending $55/month for gas instead of $28 for the electric but somehow I'll live. Not to mention I can drive it longer distances and I don't have to think about lease miles or worry about having to pay for a little scratch or dent.

yeah... me too but then again a sale for a blu ray player for $79 forced me back into the "consumer herd" which allowed me to dump my $350 standard definition DVD player but not without a lot of anger and regret...
 
We ordered a Mini Cooper in January, it arrived this past week and we bought it yesterday. Starting the return process for the LEAF.
A real shame. I never thought I'd go back to an ICE. Feels like such a step backwards. But 2016 rates have been too high, there's still a new 2015 for sale for too much, our residual is still almost $20,000. And my commute is potentially more erratic requiring much longer range. No long range option yet available.
I hope I can get back into an EV without losing my shirt on the Mini. We may get a Pacifica EV to replace our 10yr old Grand Caravan, although its still doing well at 140k.
 
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