kennethbokor
Posts: 84
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2016 12:35 pm
Delivery Date: 30 May 2018
Location: Caledon, ON Canada
Contact: Twitter

Re: Possible Widespread 2018 Traction Battery Quick Charge Problems

Fri Apr 06, 2018 1:59 am

hill wrote:
kennethbokor wrote:......snip...... I agree with this OP, I don't think we need more pages of data on why this happens and accept that fact that it does and its part of the design/build of the new Leaf.
That's very magnanimous, to simply accept the fact that Corporate Nissan continually churns out traction packs with the resiliency of a POS. Thats great if owners really don't mind an ever larger pack that's ever more prone to loose capacity as fast, or even faster than the 30's - or our original (vin 000659) 21kWh usable original POS.
(Not IF, but) When these larger Nissan packs quickly degrade & end up with a paltry cold weather range of under 50 miles - because Nissan was too cheap or profit hungry or too lazy to manufacture an authentic thermal management system - but instead, chose to continue to pack even more modules close together, where even MORE trapped heat will result in packs faster degradation - especially in all the hot areas of the country ....
all of us poor slobs will welcome all the newcommers - recently suckered into this poorly designed - virtually absent thermal management system.
Yes - THAT'S why your QC Speeds throttle so quick ... it's in hope the packs can make it to the end of warranty before they literally cook their self down to the paltry range of all of us remaining old timers.
"Possible Quick Charge Problems"?
It's not a possibility, & it's not a problem .... it's Nissan's carefully crafted attempt to cover up their thermal management huge fail.
How's THAT for a 'fact' for owners to simply 'accept' .
.

Hi Hill, good points of course you make but really don't see what can be done at this point other than understanding. Nissan is not going to change the 40kWh Leaf so as I said before for most use cases I don't see a high degree of problems. The vast majority will drive daily and plug in at home overnight to rinse and repeat. They won't buy leaf spy or watch temps, etc. They will just get used to the features/controls and get in and drive as per normal, since they are well within battery range for daily uses. They will rely on Nissan's Battery Warranty for some level of comfort or they will lease for shorter term and not care.
---------
New Leaf Owner: Just ordered Feb 24 2018, 2018 Leaf SL in Jade Frost. Expected ETA by May 30 2018.

LeftieBiker
Moderator
Posts: 14832
Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 3:17 am
Delivery Date: 30 Apr 2018
Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: Possible Widespread 2018 Traction Battery Quick Charge Problems

Fri Apr 06, 2018 2:25 am

They will just get used to the features/controls and get in and drive as per normal, since they are well within battery range for daily uses.
Except that we don't know that Summer driving in hot weather will be "well within battery range for daily uses." On what are you basing this notion? The 30kwh Leaf, which is the closest relative we have to the 40kwh Leaf?
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
BAFX OBDII Dongle
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

kennethbokor
Posts: 84
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2016 12:35 pm
Delivery Date: 30 May 2018
Location: Caledon, ON Canada
Contact: Twitter

Re: Possible Widespread 2018 Traction Battery Quick Charge Problems

Fri Apr 06, 2018 4:13 am

LeftieBiker wrote:
They will just get used to the features/controls and get in and drive as per normal, since they are well within battery range for daily uses.
Except that we don't know that Summer driving in hot weather will be "well within battery range for daily uses." On what are you basing this notion? The 30kwh Leaf, which is the closest relative we have to the 40kwh Leaf?

Well I'm guessing that if someone is driving 50-75 miles a day, that battery range will be plenty enough to support that. Even here in Canada with -25C, early 2018 Leaf owners were reporting 30-45% drop in range, so normal range is 240KM, so even 120-140KM per day is more than enough for most daily drives. My normal daily use is about 50-70kms.

I don't think even with outside air temps of 30C or more that you will loose 50% range in the new leaf, with no DCFC-ing? Just on one charge from having it plugged in at home overnight?
---------
New Leaf Owner: Just ordered Feb 24 2018, 2018 Leaf SL in Jade Frost. Expected ETA by May 30 2018.

LeftieBiker
Moderator
Posts: 14832
Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 3:17 am
Delivery Date: 30 Apr 2018
Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: Possible Widespread 2018 Traction Battery Quick Charge Problems

Fri Apr 06, 2018 6:05 am

I don't see why you are assuming that people typically drive no more than 50-75 miles a day. For commuting that's likely right, but what about trips not related to commuting?
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
BAFX OBDII Dongle
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

Evoforce
Posts: 924
Joined: Wed Mar 04, 2015 9:58 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Feb 2015
Location: Fountain Hills Arizona

Re: Possible Widespread 2018 Traction Battery Quick Charge Problems

Fri Apr 06, 2018 6:43 am

LeftieBiker wrote:I don't see why you are assuming that people typically drive no more than 50-75 miles a day. For commuting that's likely right, but what about trips not related to commuting?
In addition to people buying the car with longer range who have longer miles of commuting. You also rightly pointed out those who expect to use it on trips. People want to no longer need or rely on an ICE.
*2011 Leaf 1 bought 2/28/15 @ 28,000ish mi 10 bar (8 bars @ 11/25/15 @ 37,453 ) (New lizard @ 39,275 mi @ 1/20/2016) Now 52,166 mi.
*Tesla Model S 61,000 mi
*2011 Leaf 2 bought 4/28/15 @ 24,000ish mi 12 bar (new lizard Dec. 2014 @ 22,273 mi) Now 35,485 mi

SageBrush
Posts: 4907
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: NM

Re: Possible Widespread 2018 Traction Battery Quick Charge Problems

Fri Apr 06, 2018 7:06 am

The 2018 LEAF DCFC should come with a big footnote that reads "up to 45 kW, as battery temperature and other variables allows."

Or just give up on the DCFC sham altogether and advertise DC L2+ speeds

Perhaps we need a new acronym: DCSC "DC slow charging."
Last edited by SageBrush on Sat Apr 07, 2018 8:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/2018: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

User avatar
RegGuheert
Posts: 6419
Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2012 4:12 am
Delivery Date: 16 Mar 2012
Leaf Number: 5926
Location: Northern VA

Re: Possible Widespread 2018 Traction Battery Quick Charge Problems

Sat Apr 07, 2018 7:20 am

Nissan: "It's not a bug, it's a feature!":

RegGuheert
2011 Leaf SL Demo vehicle
10K mi. on 041413; 20K mi. (55.7Ah) on 080714; 30K mi. (52.0Ah) on 123015; 40K mi. (49.8Ah) on 020817; 50K mi. (47.2Ah) on 120717; 60K mi. (43.66Ah) on 091918.
Enphase Inverter Measured MTBF: M190, M215, M250, S280

lorenfb
Posts: 2421
Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2013 10:53 pm
Delivery Date: 22 Nov 2013
Leaf Number: 416635
Location: SoCal

Re: Possible Widespread 2018 Traction Battery Quick Charge Problems

Sat Apr 07, 2018 10:28 am

lorenfb wrote:For those that have access to a 2018 Leaf, do QC charging, and use LeafSpy, your help obtaining battery data on that vehicle
would be very useful in determining what battery parameter could be contributing to having the charging time progressively
lengthened during a long distance trip. It appears that the 2018 Leaf’s BMS controller is reducing the charging current as the
battery gets progressively warmer during a lengthy trip. This has not been the case for earlier Leafs even though the BMS does
reduce the charging current over time for the earlier Leafs, but it appears not based on temperature nor based on the number
of previous QCs during a trip.

The process should only take a couple of minutes during the starting phase of the QC to obtain the data:

1. Once the vehicle is parked adjacent to the QC with the Leaf’s power still on with no accessories turned-on, e.g. the fan/AC,
measure the battery voltage (V1). It should be greater than 325 volts. Then measure the battery temperature (T - degrees C).
Write these values down.
2. Next the charging voltage (V2) and charging current (I) need to be written down immediately once the QC device begins
the charging process
using LeafSpy. If the QC device provides these values, just use those values displayed on the QC
device like in this post; http://mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f ... 70#p523610
3. Once all the data are taken and time permits, please post them in this thread using the following form;
V1 - XXX, V2 - XXX, T - XX, I - XX
4. The data will then determine the battery resistance by this calculation; battery resistance = (V2 - V1) / I
As an example, V1 = 355 volts, V2 = 365 volts, I = 80 amps, then battery resistance = .125 ohms or 125 mohms.
Battery resistance varies with temperature, so it's critical to determine the temperature at the being of the charging process.

Based on your values and other’s values, a comparative analysis between the early Leafs and the 2108 Leaf should provide
insight into how the chemistry might be different and what one might expect about long term battery degradation the result
of lengthy and multiple QCs combined with high speed driving during a long trip.

Thanks for your help.
Doing multiple QCs yesterday using both ChargePoint & EVgo QCs, it took about 10-15 seconds to perform the above test.
The calculations from the data correlated with battery resistance data doing the LeafDD battery load test versus the above,
i.e. determining battery resistance during a QC mode.
#1 Leaf SL MY 9/13: 76K miles, 47 Ahrs, 5.0 miles/kWh (average), Hx=70, SOH=73, L2 - 100% > 1000, temp < 95F, (DOD) > 20 Ahrs
#2 Leaf SL MY 12/18: 10.3K miles, SOH 109Ahrs/115Ahrs, 5.2 miles/kWh (average), DOD > 20%, temp < 105F

DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 14790
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 16 Nov 2019
Leaf Number: 319862
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: Possible Widespread 2018 Traction Battery Quick Charge Problems

Sat Apr 07, 2018 1:34 pm

Pack Volts Pack Amps Pack T1 F Pack T2 F Pack T4 F
344.5 0 83.1 80.1 75
344.83 0 83.1 80.1 75
344.83 0.061 82.9 80.1 75
349.25 -85.082 82.9 79.9 75
351.36 -119.445 82.9 79.9 74.8



338.11 0 104 100 91.2
338 0 104 100 91.2
338.4 -0.03 104 100 91.2
338.3 0.061 104 100 91.2
338.4 0.122 104 100 91.2
341.57 -74.065 104 100 91.2
342.34 -77.453 104 100 91




348.48 0 111.2 106.7 97
348 0 111.2 106.7 97
348.67 0.061 110.7 106.2 96.4
349.73 -16.509 110.7 106.2 96.4
351.36 -68.023 110.7 106.2 96.4
351.84 -68.542 110.7 106.2 96.4
2011 SL; 44,598 mi, 87% SOH. 2013 S; 44,840 mi, 91% SOH. 2016 S30; 29,413 mi, 99% SOH. 2018 S; 25,185 mi, SOH 92.23%. 2019 S Plus; 10,081 mi, 95.03% SOH
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

lorenfb
Posts: 2421
Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2013 10:53 pm
Delivery Date: 22 Nov 2013
Leaf Number: 416635
Location: SoCal

Re: Possible Widespread 2018 Traction Battery Quick Charge Problems

Sat Apr 07, 2018 4:25 pm

DaveinOlyWA wrote:Pack Volts Pack Amps Pack T1 F Pack T2 F Pack T4 F
344.5 0 83.1 80.1 75
344.83 0 83.1 80.1 75
344.83 0.061 82.9 80.1 75
349.25 -85.082 82.9 79.9 75
351.36 -119.445 82.9 79.9 74.8
(351 - 344) / 119 = 59 mohms


DaveinOlyWA wrote:338.11 0 104 100 91.2
338 0 104 100 91.2
338.4 -0.03 104 100 91.2
338.3 0.061 104 100 91.2
338.4 0.122 104 100 91.2
341.57 -74.065 104 100 91.2
342.34 -77.453 104 100 91
(342 - 338) / 77 = 52 mohms



DaveinOlyWA wrote:348.48 0 111.2 106.7 97
348 0 111.2 106.7 97
348.67 0.061 110.7 106.2 96.4
349.73 -16.509 110.7 106.2 96.4
351.36 -68.023 110.7 106.2 96.4
351.84 -68.542 110.7 106.2 96.4
(351 - 348) / 69 = 43 mohms

Using your charging data (I assume), the 2018 40 kWh Leaf battery has about the same battery resistance (55 mohms) as the 24 kWh battery.
Given that adding more cells in parallel (effectively) for more energy when using the same chemistry should have resulted in about .60 (24/40)
the battery resistance (on average) of the 24 kWh battery resistance, so one can possibly conclude a change in battery chemistry (worse).
Additionally, since the 2018 battery is running hotter with the approximate same battery resistance, i.e. same internal heat generation,
one would assume that its thermal resistance to ambient has increased. Reg/LeftieBiker have noted/implied this up-thread.

A thanks to Dave. At least further insight now exists about the 40 kWh battery and that more data will be obtained over time.
This obviously is not to be considered a rigorous analysis, but just a simple approximation test. Hopefully I didn't misinterpret what he did.
Last edited by lorenfb on Sat Apr 07, 2018 5:15 pm, edited 2 times in total.
#1 Leaf SL MY 9/13: 76K miles, 47 Ahrs, 5.0 miles/kWh (average), Hx=70, SOH=73, L2 - 100% > 1000, temp < 95F, (DOD) > 20 Ahrs
#2 Leaf SL MY 12/18: 10.3K miles, SOH 109Ahrs/115Ahrs, 5.2 miles/kWh (average), DOD > 20%, temp < 105F

Return to “General / Main Owners Forum”