Lothsahn
Posts: 437
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2018 4:35 pm
Delivery Date: 04 Jan 2018
Leaf Number: 007797

Re: Warning: Battery Replacement Cost Increase (now $8500)

Tue May 07, 2019 6:22 am

LeftieBiker wrote:I was originally going by the post below, in which a Russian claims, in a video, to have swapped a 30kwh pack into a 24kwh Leaf - he claims it didn't work initially, but then did work when the 30kwh controller (I assume the LBC) was swapped as well. After that I think I got turned around by the discussion of the 40 to 30 swap. I apologize for the confusion. It should be noted, though, that using 30kwh packs in 24kwh Leafs does seem to be possible, with the bonus of getting to use the extra capacity.

First post on this page:

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.p ... 31#p540231
Bkvszomorito managed to get the 30 kWh pack to work in the 24 kWh Leaf because he swapped the LBC AND VCM. This will only work on 3/2013+ model Leaf's (not 2011/2012, nor apparently 2/2013 or earlier). Bkvszomorito used a 3/2013 Leaf. However, if you do this, the intelligent key immobilizer will trigger and then you will have to tow the leaf to a dealer re-activate your keys before the car can be driven.
bkvszomorito wrote: I have swapped the VCM (engine control) electronic controller and the battery pack, and it works perfectly, without any issue.

If your car is produced before 02.2013, unfortunately the VCM is not compatible, so it should not be easy to do the retrofit.
(The above quote is from a PM)

In terms of a straight cell swap from a 30->24, it appears the reference voltages are extremely similar between 40 & 30, but NOT between 30 & 24. Here's a link to the voltage graphs:
https://pushevs.com/2018/01/29/2018-nis ... eal-specs/

If you notice, both cells are fully charged at 4.2V, which means that putting a 30 or 40 kWh cells in a 24 kWh BMS will NOT overcharge them (my earlier post was incorrect and I will edit it to reflect this). However, the voltage where the rapid dropoff starts is 3.6V for the 24 kWh cells but only 3.3V for the 40 kWh cells. This means that a 24 kWh BMS (unless reprogrammed, which I'm not aware of anyone successfully doing) will show VLBW at 3.6V per cell. However, if using 30 or 40 kWh cells, 3.6V is only halfway through the discharge curve, meaning that you still have half the battery capacity remaining.

I think turtle typically kicks on around 3.0V per cell, so the car won't actually turtle, but it will just be a very confused car that can drive 80 miles at VLBW.

Because the voltage curves match between 30 & 40, this problem doesn't exist. Therefore, one should be able to simply do a 40->30 cell swap and have everything work (except range indication). However, bkvszomorito found that after doing such a swap, he had issues where the car was not fully utilizing the battery. It was charging only to 97% and turtling at 22%, leaving exactly 25% of the range (10kWh). So it appears that the 30 kWh BMS is somehow either hardcoded to 30 kWh (either intentionally or to fix the BMS range estimation issue) or the internal resistance of the 40 kWh cells is different enough to trigger strange behavior. The BMS that bkvszomorito used does have the firmware update for the 30 kWh range estimation.

This means that a 40->30 cell swap is possible, but only 30 kWh range will be available, and unfortunately, the reserved range appears to be near the bottom end of the battery. It would be ideal if the BMS only charged the battery to 75%, but alas, that's not how it appears to work. Nonetheless, the 40 kWh would have a lower DoD on each drive, so theoretically, it should last somewhat longer.

Hopefully this helps anyone who reads this, planning to do dissimilar cell swaps.
2011 Silver SV, purchased 2018, lives in Missouri (previously in CA)
LeafSpy Pro + BAFX Products OBDII dongle
Battery swap 2019/04/24 (87% SOH, 12 bar)

DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 14108
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 16 Feb 2018
Leaf Number: 314199
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: Warning: Battery Replacement Cost Increase (now $8500)

Tue May 07, 2019 6:39 am

peted wrote:
LeftieBiker wrote:It looks like it will be possible to install 30kwh packs in older Leafs, so with age weeding out the defective and weaker packs (or at least revealing them), that should be an option for another 5-7 years.
I have read this entire thread (all 38 pages!) with interest, as our 2013 LEAF's battery is deteriorating suddenly, after five solid years of no significant degradation.

I blame, at least in part, our upgrade to the 3G radio last year, as that resulted in our 12V battery running down periodically. Since it was apparently happening only when we charged to 100%, the dealer asked us to do that more often as a way of trying to reproduce and help diagnose the problem. Naturally, it didn't get them any closer to actually fixing the problem, but we did notice the loss of the first bar of capacity during that time. Almost a year later, we've lost the second.

Of course, I'm sure at least to some extent, the age of the car is just catching up to us.

Range is noticeably reduced, which of course is an ugly cycle. With less capacity, the battery gets closer to minimum charge more often, and starting trips with 100% charge is required more often, both of which age the battery more quickly. :( Sigh...

Anyway, we contacted the local dealer to see what our options are, and according to them, we have exactly one: pay nearly $9000 for a new 30 kWh battery. Ouch!

(Caveat: I'm not the one who actually made the inquiry, and so I don't at the moment have details such as whether that price includes labor, and/or whether it takes into account any offsetting amount for the exchange of the battery that's in the car now.)

I cannot vouch for the reliability of the information the dealer provided us, but I can at least confirm that not only is it the case according to them that one can put a 30 kWh battery into a 2013 LEAF, at this time that is the only option available through Nissan.


As for all the comments about whether this makes sense for Nissan to do or not: no one ever accused any big corporation of having much common sense. There are usually far too many layers between the people who know a good idea when it bites them on the ass, and the people who make the actual decisions, for corporations to generally choose wisely when it comes to long-term decision making.

But, I consider it patently obvious that Nissan should be doing everything they can to make sure their battery replacements are affordable, especially for the early model cars. The idea that cheaper batteries would cannibalize current and future sales is ridiculous. First of all, there just aren't enough of the early model cars around for that to be significant. A serious car manufacturer is selling millions of vehicles per year; accommodating a few tens of thousands of owners per year isn't going to make a difference.

Secondly though, the idea of cannibalizing current and future sales only makes sense if there are sales to be had. Eliminating sales by shoving what would otherwise be a loyal customer over to other manufacturers, that will do far more to harm sales than letting a few more of the older cars stay on the road.

Now, I'm not saying that Nissan understands any of this, nor that their motivation isn't exactly based on a completely misunderstanding of this. Just that it wouldn't be logical for them to take that view.
Not true. I know someone who just paid to have their pack replaced and it was a 24 kwh pack.
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles.2016 S30 deceased. 29,413 miles. 2018 S40; 15,000 miles, 478 GIDs, 37.0 kwh 109.81 Ahr , SOH 94.61, Hx 120.15
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

peted
Posts: 9
Joined: Mon May 06, 2019 8:46 pm
Delivery Date: 23 Mar 2013
Leaf Number: 404867
Location: Seattle, WA

Re: Warning: Battery Replacement Cost Increase (now $8500)

Tue May 07, 2019 11:03 pm

DaveinOlyWA wrote:Not true. I know someone who just paid to have their pack replaced and it was a 24 kwh pack.
To be clear, everything I wrote is true. Whether the statement by the dealer, which I referenced, is true or not, I cannot say. While I've read enough on these forums to take your statements as reliable, there is enough missing detail from the statement above that I can't say for sure it applies in our situation.

Nevertheless, if we ever do decide to pay such a high price to have our LEAF's battery replaced, rest assured we will get a statement in writing from the dealer about what exactly the replacement will be and what it will cost, before actually proceeding with any work.

The person at the dealership we contacted is, so far, very confident in his own statement. Granted, neither of the nearby Nissan dealers have demonstrated much competence with me. Never mind that at both, the staff seems to turn over yearly, which I think is nuts. I hate our local Chevy dealer, but at least I got to deal with the same crooks each time I'd gone in over the past 20 years, instead of having to break in all new ones each time.

LeftieBiker
Moderator
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Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: Warning: Battery Replacement Cost Increase (now $8500)

Tue May 07, 2019 11:20 pm

It may be that pack availability varies by region. The dealership may also be mistaken. Let's keep an open mind.
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
BAFX OBDII Dongle
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

Evoforce
Posts: 916
Joined: Wed Mar 04, 2015 9:58 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Feb 2015
Location: Fountain Hills Arizona

Re: Warning: Battery Replacement Cost Increase (now $8500)

Tue May 07, 2019 11:26 pm

peted wrote:
DaveinOlyWA wrote:Not true. I know someone who just paid to have their pack replaced and it was a 24 kwh pack.
To be clear, everything I wrote is true. Whether the statement by the dealer, which I referenced, is true or not, I cannot say. While I've read enough on these forums to take your statements as reliable, there is enough missing detail from the statement above that I can't say for sure it applies in our situation.

Nevertheless, if we ever do decide to pay such a high price to have our LEAF's battery replaced, rest assured we will get a statement in writing from the dealer about what exactly the replacement will be and what it will cost, before actually proceeding with any work.

The person at the dealership we contacted is, so far, very confident in his own statement. Granted, neither of the nearby Nissan dealers have demonstrated much competence with me. Never mind that at both, the staff seems to turn over yearly, which I think is nuts. I hate our local Chevy dealer, but at least I got to deal with the same crooks each time I'd gone in over the past 20 years, instead of having to break in all new ones each time.
Trade it in on a Bolt or Tesla. Be done with the nonsense. Or keep it without new battery and also buy a Bolt or Tesla and use Leaf for short distance. Tesla is best and I still have my Leaf.
*2011 Leaf 1 bought 2/28/15 @ 28,000ish mi 10 bar (8 bars @ 11/25/15 @ 37,453 ) (New lizard @ 39,275 mi @ 1/20/2016) Now 52,166 mi.
*Tesla Model S 61,000 mi
*2011 Leaf 2 bought 4/28/15 @ 24,000ish mi 12 bar (new lizard Dec. 2014 @ 22,273 mi) Now 35,485 mi

peted
Posts: 9
Joined: Mon May 06, 2019 8:46 pm
Delivery Date: 23 Mar 2013
Leaf Number: 404867
Location: Seattle, WA

Re: Warning: Battery Replacement Cost Increase (now $8500)

Tue May 07, 2019 11:53 pm

Evoforce wrote:Trade it in on a Bolt or Tesla. Be done with the nonsense. Or keep it without new battery and also buy a Bolt or Tesla and use Leaf for short distance. Tesla is best and I still have my Leaf.
We've already purchased a used Model S to complement the LEAF. Worst case, we'll keep the LEAF for shorter trips, as you say. But, we live in a rural area, so no trip is truly a short trip. Fact is, as much of a rip-off the $9000 battery seems, if it's at least an upgrade in size, it's a lot cheaper than buying a new car. (Though, looks like if the Honda Clarity were available in our area, we would have been able to lease one for three years for the same price.)

We might also wait another year or two before upgrading the battery, which would make the economics at least a little more palatable.

For me, the most frustrating part is that when we bought the car, the expectation was that a replacement battery would be closer to $5K than $10K, which figured into the fuel cost comparison. We're at 60K miles now after six years, so a $9K battery works out to 15 cents a mile just for the battery alone.

If gas cost a lot more (like it really ought to) the economics would look better. But at $3.50/gallon (we live in one of the higher-cost areas for gas), a car that even gets 24 mpg costs less in fuel costs to operate, and that's before the cost of the actual electricity is even taken into account. More fuel-efficient cars (as most are these days) would trounce the LEAF. Heck, even a lot of the smaller SUVs would.

Even if I do the calculation looking forward instead of backwards -- after all, put a battery in now, and we'd likely get at least another 60K miles out of it, so the cost for that one battery is technically over 120K miles -- that halves the per mile cost, thus doubling the equivalent mpg for a gas car. But a Prius or similar still breaks even with that.

And that ignores that we already paid the premium for a car with a battery in it when we got the car in the first place. So it's a bit debatable whether that's really a fair way to calculate, tempting as it might be to do so.

I will admit, the LEAF is not, for us, solely about economics. In fact, that's among the least of our motivations. But still...the LEAF has absolutely, completely failed on its promise to be economically justified. I mean, it hasn't even come close to fulfilling that promise.

LeftieBiker
Moderator
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Re: Warning: Battery Replacement Cost Increase (now $8500)

Tue May 07, 2019 11:56 pm

Have you considered trying to find a used 2015 pack and having that installed? Or would the job be impossible to get done in your area?
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
BAFX OBDII Dongle
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

Evoforce
Posts: 916
Joined: Wed Mar 04, 2015 9:58 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Feb 2015
Location: Fountain Hills Arizona

Re: Warning: Battery Replacement Cost Increase (now $8500)

Wed May 08, 2019 1:45 am

peted wrote:
Evoforce wrote:Trade it in on a Bolt or Tesla. Be done with the nonsense. Or keep it without new battery and also buy a Bolt or Tesla and use Leaf for short distance. Tesla is best and I still have my Leaf.
We've already purchased a used Model S to complement the LEAF. Worst case, we'll keep the LEAF for shorter trips, as you say. But, we live in a rural area, so no trip is truly a short trip. Fact is, as much of a rip-off the $9000 battery seems, if it's at least an upgrade in size, it's a lot cheaper than buying a new car. (Though, looks like if the Honda Clarity were available in our area, we would have been able to lease one for three years for the same price.)

We might also wait another year or two before upgrading the battery, which would make the economics at least a little more palatable.

For me, the most frustrating part is that when we bought the car, the expectation was that a replacement battery would be closer to $5K than $10K, which figured into the fuel cost comparison. We're at 60K miles now after six years, so a $9K battery works out to 15 cents a mile just for the battery alone.

If gas cost a lot more (like it really ought to) the economics would look better. But at $3.50/gallon (we live in one of the higher-cost areas for gas), a car that even gets 24 mpg costs less in fuel costs to operate, and that's before the cost of the actual electricity is even taken into account. More fuel-efficient cars (as most are these days) would trounce the LEAF. Heck, even a lot of the smaller SUVs would.

Even if I do the calculation looking forward instead of backwards -- after all, put a battery in now, and we'd likely get at least another 60K miles out of it, so the cost for that one battery is technically over 120K miles -- that halves the per mile cost, thus doubling the equivalent mpg for a gas car. But a Prius or similar still breaks even with that.


And that ignores that we already paid the premium for a car with a battery in it when we got the car in the first place. So it's a bit debatable whether that's really a fair way to calculate, tempting as it might be to do so.

I will admit, the LEAF is not, for us, solely about economics. In fact, that's among the least of our motivations. But still...the LEAF has absolutely, completely failed on its promise to be economically justified. I mean, it hasn't even come close to fulfilling that promise.
So as you talk about your circumstances, why waste $9000 on another short term battery? Wouldn't it be best than to sell off or trade it in? Get as much value you can now for Leaf, because of fast depreciation, and get a tax credit on the new purchase of Bolt or Model 3? Last I knew, full tax credit may come back for Tesla. It is sad to be in this position because Leaf is such a good car if not for bad batteries.
*2011 Leaf 1 bought 2/28/15 @ 28,000ish mi 10 bar (8 bars @ 11/25/15 @ 37,453 ) (New lizard @ 39,275 mi @ 1/20/2016) Now 52,166 mi.
*Tesla Model S 61,000 mi
*2011 Leaf 2 bought 4/28/15 @ 24,000ish mi 12 bar (new lizard Dec. 2014 @ 22,273 mi) Now 35,485 mi

cwerdna
Posts: 9684
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:31 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Jul 2013
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: Warning: Battery Replacement Cost Increase (now $8500)

Wed May 08, 2019 1:55 am

Evoforce wrote: So as you talk about your circumstances, why waste $9000 on another short term battery? Wouldn't it be best than to sell off or trade it in? Get as much value you can now for Leaf, because of fast depreciation, and get a tax credit on the new purchase of Bolt or Model 3? Last I knew, full tax credit may come back for Tesla.
I agree on the bolded part. Unfortunately, installing an $7Kish to $9K battery on a Leaf with little value will unfortunately not add a huge amount of value to it on the used market. :(

As for Bolt, tax credit on GM EVs/PHEV is now $3750 and will drop to $1875 on Oct 1, 2019 then 0 on April 1, 2020 (dates are at https://www.chevrolet.com/electric/bolt-ev-electric-car). I posted again about heavy discounting at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.p ... 72#p556772.

I wouldn't hold my breath for the tax credit returning to full for any automaker where it's been reduced already (for Tesla and GM, so far). I'm only aware of https://electrek.co/2019/04/10/tesla-gm ... isan-bill/ but don't know of its status. I find it unlikely to pass given our political climate.

'19 Bolt Premier
'13 Leaf SV w/premium package (owned)
'13 Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium packages (lease over, car returned)

Please don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

Evoforce
Posts: 916
Joined: Wed Mar 04, 2015 9:58 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Feb 2015
Location: Fountain Hills Arizona

Re: Warning: Battery Replacement Cost Increase (now $8500)

Wed May 08, 2019 2:24 am

cwerdna wrote:
Evoforce wrote: So as you talk about your circumstances, why waste $9000 on another short term battery? Wouldn't it be best than to sell off or trade it in? Get as much value you can now for Leaf, because of fast depreciation, and get a tax credit on the new purchase of Bolt or Model 3? Last I knew, full tax credit may come back for Tesla.
I agree on the bolded part. Unfortunately, installing an $7Kish to $9K battery on a Leaf with little value will unfortunately not add a huge amount of value to it on the used market. :(

As for Bolt, tax credit on GM EVs/PHEV is now $3750 and will drop to $1875 on Oct 1, 2019 then 0 on April 1, 2020 (dates are at https://www.chevrolet.com/electric/bolt-ev-electric-car). I posted again about heavy discounting at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.p ... 72#p556772.

I wouldn't hold my breath for the tax credit returning to full for any automaker where it's been reduced already (for Tesla and GM, so far). I'm only aware of https://electrek.co/2019/04/10/tesla-gm ... isan-bill/ but don't know of its status. I find it unlikely to pass given our political climate.
Agreed!
*2011 Leaf 1 bought 2/28/15 @ 28,000ish mi 10 bar (8 bars @ 11/25/15 @ 37,453 ) (New lizard @ 39,275 mi @ 1/20/2016) Now 52,166 mi.
*Tesla Model S 61,000 mi
*2011 Leaf 2 bought 4/28/15 @ 24,000ish mi 12 bar (new lizard Dec. 2014 @ 22,273 mi) Now 35,485 mi

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