We need a portable 240v EVSE

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garygid

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 21, 2010
Messages
12,469
Location
Laguna Hills, Orange Co, CA
The fixed-installation 240v EVSE is NOT satisfactory. A PORTABLE, plug-in version is needed.

Without the plug-in feature, we are ignoring the millions of ALREADY-EXISTING 240v (30 and 50 amp) plugin sockets already available: the dryer socket in most homes, the sockets at RV parks, and the many available at most businesses.

NOT using this HUGE existing infrastructure is ... totally STUPID!

RIGHT NOW, we need to tell Nissan, local building departments, and legislators that we DENAND the right to plug-in. If we did not understand and accept that there are safety issues with fueling, we would not fuel our gas cars.

So, BEFORE you put money down or pay for a Leaf, demand a 240v plug-in EVSE that can work at AT LEAST the popular 15, 30, and 50-amp sockets.

If we ACT NOW, there is still time for new federal electrical-use laws to be introduced and passed. There is also time for Nissan to offer us a portable, plugin, amp-adjustable, 240v EVSE.

Email and chat with Nissan NOW, and tell every dealer that it will be a condition of sale.
 
They are trying to standardize. Just make an adaptor and be done with it. If they made a portable unit everyone would bitch about the many variations in plug types and it would get complicated. Going to a standard forces everyone to use one plug and they will end up dirt cheap soon enough. It's way better than avcon and the paddle chargers so be glad. We don't need another expensive portable unit. Garry, I thought your were an EE. Get a set of cutters and clip away or I will be glad to sell you a custom built one at a fraction of the cost they would charge you:)
 
garygid said:
Without the plug-in feature, we are ignoring the millions of ALREADY-EXISTING 240v (30 and 50 amp) plugin sockets already available: the dryer socket in most homes, the sockets at RV parks, and the many available at most businesses.

NOT using this HUGE existing infrastructure is ... totally STUPID!


I've got to say that I do agree. I'm from the UK and we've been using 220v for donkey's years, and we don't get killed or anything (though I can't recall how many amps standard sockets are).
 
Does anyone kn exctlywhich "code" makes harwiing mandatory ? Is ther such thing as a federal code at all -is it just some states ?
 
There is no US national code. However, the code NEC or NFPA (National Electric Code and National Fire Protection Association) 70 is a de facto national code, as it has been adopted by all 50 states. Building codes used to be more local, and may still be in some states, but even in PA, the national codes were adopted by the state, with enforcement left to local jurisdictions. I only know this because much of the PA local code was replaced a few years ago with these national codes, much to the consternation of the Amish, Mennonite and associated rural DIY types who really disliked being told the minimum size of windows in occupied rooms, etc.
 
The NEC article 625 relates to EV type applications. There are at least 1999, 2001, 2005, 2007, and 2011 versions, but states are slow to adopt new versions. CA might have adopted the 2007 version. The 2011 version of article 625 apparently just adds Plug-in Hybrids to its "applicable" list.

According to my reading one earlier (before 2001) version of article 625, I think (others might have other opinions):

1. For 110/120v applications, 15 or even 20 amps, plug-in operation is basically OK and there are very few restrictions.

2. For 220/240v, it appears to me that under about 40 amps, with sufficient interlocks & disconnects included (625-18 & 625-19), AND for indoor (not outdoor) use (625-29), that hard-wiring is not required. I could be wrong. Also, not "listed" (most home-brew) equipment is mostly prohibited, I think.

So, there is a chance that the NEC does (did) allow suitably-constructed EVSEs to be used in a plug-in mode.

Google: NEC article 625
Tell me what you think, please.
 
evnow said:
Does anyone kn exctlywhich "code" makes hardwiring mandatory ? Is there such thing as a federal code at all -is it just some states ?

This is all I've found so far. I think the latest National Electric Code is 2008 - this is from 1999. Article applies to EVSE - I have no idea if there are other articles that apply as well.

I bought a copy of SAE J1772 Jan 2010 and am working thru it. There are a pair of diagrams that detail AC Level 1 and Level 2 charging. Level 1 is identified as a "method of EV/PHEV charging that extends AC power from the most common grounded electrical receptacle to an on-board charger using an appropriate cord set...AC level 1 allows connection to existing electrical receptacles in compliance with the National Electrical Code - Article 625." The diagram clearly indicates use of a NEMA 5-15 or 5-20 plug.

For Level 2 the description reads: "the primary method of EV/PHEV charging that extends AC power from the electric supply to an on-board charger from a dedicated EVSE as shown in Figure 4. The electrical ratings are similar to large household appliances and specified in Table 1. AC Level 2 may be utilized at home, workplace, and public charging facilities." The diagram clearly indicates a hard-wired connection to the grid.

J1772 has a number of other references to SAE, FCC, International Electrotechnical Commission, ISO, NFPA, and UL pubs.

Here's a link - confirms Gary's comment about the 2011 NEC being 'on the streets'.
 
If my "reading" of NEC article 625 is correct, the hard-wired diagram in the J1772 spec would be just an example of one (the most typical?) installation, but not the only one. The hard-wired seems required for "outdoor" uses.

The hard-wired seems to be OK in all legal configurations. The plug-in configuration is allowed for 120v 15a configurations, and in some "other" situations.

Not specified: The EVSE and connection to grid power are indoors, and the vehicle is outdoors.
 
Because the J-1772 spec can supply up to 70Amps, that is the most likely reason the hardwiring is required. A portable level 2 charging cord/evse could be designed and built to run off a 30A dryer outlet, but someone would need to do it and get it UL approved. Probably no one wants to spend the money on it, as most see the 120v level 1 cord sufficient for portable use.
 
garygid said:
16 hour fill-up vs 4 hour

To me, it is a big difference if trying to commute 80 miles at CA freeway "safe" speeds.

But, "easy" if I can charge 1/4 tank at lunch.
Well, if you're counting on a 4 hour fill-up, that's the 6.6kW charger.
a) It's my understanding that won't even be available in the Leaf until the 2012 model.
b) I believe 6.6kW is well beyond the current used by anything but a large industrial clothes dryer, and those are also hardwired.

So, obviously, you aren't running home for lunch. Where do you plan to find 240V to plug into? There are a lot of charging stations being installed in public places, and those will already have the J1772 connector, so no worry. If you're planning on talking your employer into running 220 out to your car, adding the hardwired connector would be a tiny increment on the cost. (All the scary stuff about $2200 includes wiring and installation.)
 
I assume all of you have seen these:

http://www.j1772connector.com/

http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/zevprog/stakeholders/infrastructure/finalsaej1772.doc

http://www.teva2.com/J1772.html

Interesting comment in that last one:

Another article I read mentioned that if there were no signals, then the connector would only deliver 12 amps at 120 vac, making it a Level 1 connector which would satisfy lots of the existing chargers that we have.

As I interpret that, the car would assume it is only being fed 120 volts without the signaling telling it otherwise. It may have a safeguard to not close the relay if it detects higher voltage without the correct signaling. If you did zap it with 200 when it was only expecting 120 that could be bad.
 
mitch672 said:
Because the J-1772 spec can supply up to 70Amps, that is the most likely reason the hardwiring is required. A portable level 2 charging cord/evse could be designed and built to run off a 30A dryer outlet, but someone would need to do it and get it UL approved. Probably no one wants to spend the money on it, as most see the 120v level 1 cord sufficient for portable use.

Portable 120 charging is useless unless you bring a sleeping bag. Every person I know with a n ev has a portable 240 cord and at least 5 adaptors. This will still be the case for those with friends in remote areas, if it were Europe one could use a standard outlet but the issue would likely be current restriction which is why the box is used to determine the supply capabilities in these cases. If you are nit versed in electricity and evs or have a questionable environment where you charge, get the box.
 
The "standard" electric dryer home socket is usually wired to a 30-amp (are newer ones 40-amp?) breaker.

My pre-1980 home has a 30-amp dual breaker for the dryer, so I would probably need to limit the e-fuel rate to 24 amps (80% of 30, and not let the Leaf "suck" the full 30 amps) if I use that socket.

When the Leaf gets the 6.6 kW (wants 30 amps, could take up to 32 from a 40-amp breaker) charger, if the Level 2 EVSE indicates that only 25 are available, will the LEAF's internal charger "back off" to 25 amps, or "drop back" to 15 amps?
 
Apparently (might not be final), the EVSE from AV will have an internal setting (probably not a user-selectable setting) for "offering" the vehicle a maximum of 30 amps (requiring a 40-amp dual breaker). Really, it could "offer" 32 amps.

For installation on a 20-amp breaker, it is likely that it has a 15 (or 16) amp "setting" for its max-current indication. It is not clear if a 24-amp setting (for a 30-amp breaker) will be available, but I expect it will be.

A portable version of the EVSE would require this "max-available-current" setting to be user-selectable to match the capabilities of the circuit that the EVSE gets plugged into. Yes, that would generally require an "aware" user, but the sockets to be used frequently could be labeled to facilitate making the correct setting.

Also, frequently-used sockets could be equipped with a nearby switch (or shutoff) so that plugging and unplugging is very rarely done on a live circuit.

Or, a proper (European-style?) 240v safety plug and socket could be installed. With these "safety" sockets, by the time the plug is extracted from the socket far enough to be able to touch the contacts, the contacts are no longer "live" (they have disconnected from the "live" contacts inside the socket).
 
garygid said:
Or, a proper (European-style?) 240v safety plug and socket could be installed. With these "safety" sockets, by the time the plug is extracted from the socket far enough to be able to touch the contacts, the contacts are no longer "live" (they have disconnected from the "live" contacts inside the socket).

The most common way of incorporating "safety" in a 240v socket in the UK these days is to have an on/off switch incorporated into it's wall plate. I don't remember if this was commonplace when I was a kid or not...I certainly don't remember having to turn sockets on, but then it's been a good few years too. I think you'd be hard pressed to find a UK socket not fitted thusly these days.

socket.jpg


I also think the UK is fairly uncommon in this respect, because I don't remember having to switch sockets on in other areas of Europe/Scandinavia where I've traveled.
 
Nice picture, thanks.

Do you have any idea what the max current rating of this type socket?

Is there something similar for higher-current loads, like electric driers, shop equipment, etc?
 
planet4ever said:
garygid said:
16 hour fill-up vs 4 hour

To me, it is a big difference if trying to commute 80 miles at CA freeway "safe" speeds.

But, "easy" if I can charge 1/4 tank at lunch.
Well, if you're counting on a 4 hour fill-up, that's the 6.6kW charger.
a) It's my understanding that won't even be available in the Leaf until the 2012 model.
b) I believe 6.6kW is well beyond the current used by anything but a large industrial clothes dryer, and those are also hardwired.

So, obviously, you aren't running home for lunch. Where do you plan to find 240V to plug into? There are a lot of charging stations being installed in public places, and those will already have the J1772 connector, so no worry. If you're planning on talking your employer into running 220 out to your car, adding the hardwired connector would be a tiny increment on the cost. (All the scary stuff about $2200 includes wiring and installation.)


I have been charging at friends houses, costcos and parking lots, rv parks and dual pig-tail 120 outlets for three years at 7.2kw with no issue. At 240 that is only 30A which is supported by all old and new 240 charge stations. At 6.6kw that is only 27A. I have 5 basic adaptors I use and I can charge on anything except paddle chargers but who cares because where there is a paddle the is an AVCON and now there will be a "J"
 
garygid said:
Do you have any idea what the max current rating of this type socket?

13 Amps. I think there is supposed to be a 15A version too, but that might be based on older BS standards. Currently looking on the web for details.

There is apparently a switched 32amp industrial socket too, but I don't know much about it:

ind_socket.jpg


PM323301.jpg
 
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