Colorado Electric Vehicle Fast-Charging Corridors

My Nissan Leaf Forum

Help Support My Nissan Leaf Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

dgpcolorado

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 20, 2011
Messages
3,249
Location
The Western Slope, Colorado
At GRA's suggestion, a thread to discuss developments in Colorado Electric Vehicle Fast-Charging Corridors, which is being sponsored by the Colorado Energy Office.

As many at MNL know, Colorado has long been one of the states most supportive of EVs. One of the initiatives to make EVs viable for many car owners is the development of a statewide network of 34 DCFC stations: https://energyoffice.colorado.gov/zero-emission-vehicles/electric-vehicle-fast-charging-corridors

Map of the network: https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=1TF_9EOqWtip9vGvnZajwVepfZusul1Cf&ll=38.94148672662878%2C-106.5703647265625&z=7

This network should complement the EA and other charging networks and help road trips in non-Tesla EVs with DCFC capability.

ChargePoint was awarded the contract to build and run the stations. These stations will support both CCS and Chademo fast charging. How many of the stations are up and running I couldn't say, although I expect that Plugshare might help with that.

As someone with more than 50,000 miles of road trips using the Tesla Supercharger network, I am very pleased to see the rapid growth of CCS/Chademo fast charging locations in many areas of the country, for those with cars that use those plugs.


The only station with which I am familiar is currently under construction in Montrose CO. I'll post some more info on that site in the next post. If anyone else has info or pictures on these installations, please post them here.
 
A DCFC complex is under construction in Montrose CO, three blocks from the intersection of US 50 (Grand Junction, Montrose, Gunnison, Monarch Pass, Salida, Cañon City, Pueblo/Colorado Springs) and US 550 (Montrose, Ridgway, Ouray, Red Mountain Pass, Silverton, Durango, Farmington, Albuquerque).

The section of US 550 from Ridgway to Silverton, known as the "million dollar highway," can best be described as "wildly scenic" although it is not for those afraid of heights, since some sections have steep drop-offs with little or no shoulders and no guard rails (so that avalanches can flow over the road and snow can be plowed off the road into the gorge):



The site is located at N 1st Street and Uncompahgre Avenue and will have eight Tesla Superchargers and two ChargePoint DCFC stalls; it is being built with the enthusiastic support of the City of Montrose and DMEA, the local electric co-op.

The Chargepoint equipment has been installed:


^ The two ChargePoint stalls on 7 November 2020. No idea when they will be ready to use.

Each of the two ChargePoint towers has both CCS and Chademo cords. According to Plugshare, ChargePoint DCFC stations in my general area (Four Corners) have quite variable charging costs, ranging from really expensive, due to a stiff time fee, to quite reasonable, when charging for kWh only. What the fee will be for this station is unclear to me.

Amenities in the area include: public restrooms two blocks south at Centennial Plaza, where a free Level 2 charge station has been located for many years; some small restaurants and cafes on Main Street, one block south; a supermarket (City Market) four blocks to the southwest; fast food (Burger King) four blocks to the northwest.

This is another fast charging node in a good location for road trips. Montrose is also the gateway city for Black Canyon of the Gunnison National Park.
 
I had written a post in the CP topic after I saw your post there, but deleted it after I found you had correctly divined my intention here. This post is just so I'll see any new posts in this topic. :D
 
Dinosaur ($0.20/kWh + $0.25/min.), Pagosa Springs ($0.30/kWh) and Salida ($0.20/kWh + $0.20/min.) which are in three different corridors (there are 6 total) are open per Plugshare check-ins.

The non-EV Corridor CP sites in Colorado are often ridiculously high-priced. One's charging $0.55/kWh off-peak, $1.33/kWh peak!
 
Chang Thai is about 1.2 miles away. Perfect scooter distance

I promised my wife we would return to Black Canyon. What a magical place
 
GRA said:
Dinosaur ($0.20/kWh + $0.25/min.), Pagosa Springs ($0.30/kWh) and Salida ($0.20/kWh + $0.20/min.) which are in three different corridors (there are 6 total) are open per Plugshare check-ins.

The non-EV Corridor CP sites in Colorado are often ridiculously high-priced. One's charging $0.55/kWh off-peak, $1.33/kWh peak!
By my standards, $0.30/kWh is reasonable for DCFC. However $0.20/kWh + $0.25/min is getting expensive at the typical Chademo speed of 50 kW. For example a 25 kWh charge at 50 kW: ($0.20 x 25) + ($0.25 x 30) = $5 + $7.50 = $12.50
That works out to $0.50/kWh, which is close to quadruple the home electric rate where I live. It is also more expensive than buying gas for a comparable car.

At the CCS speed of 62.5 kW it would be a bit cheaper. However, if the charge rate tapers, the cost per kWh goes up by a lot.

I'm rooting for more stations at the flat $0.30/kWh pricing!
 
On the subject of pricing, there are three ChargePoint DCFC stations in Eagle County, not part of this Corridor program although they are along I-70, which are 10¢/kWh:
one in Eagle at the fairgrounds
two at the airport near Gypsum

That's a pretty good deal for DCFC charging. All three are sponsored by Eagle County, which sets the prices.
 
The sooner everyone goes to per kWh pricing, the better. It's simpler and much easier to compare charging costs, with no algebra and charging curves needed. Thankfully California has mandated this, albeit not for a few years yet, but EA has already switched.
 
GRA said:
The sooner everyone goes to per kWh pricing, the better. It's simpler and much easier to compare charging costs, with no algebra and charging curves needed. Thankfully California has mandated this, albeit not for a few years yet, but EA has already switched.
While I agree with that, some states do not allow selling of electricity by non utilities. Tesla prices Supercharging by the kWh in the states that allow it and by time in states that don't, using a two tier rate depending on charging speed.

It seems unlikely that most states would actually require that EV charging be priced by kWh. Rather, I think that they will let the market sort itself out.
 
Yes, I know some states don't allow it, and they need to change that. As the % of PEVs increase in a given state, so will the political pressure to fix this. It's bad enough that we still have gas prices to 1/10th cent, when the justification for it ended long ago.

BTW, have you let your local legislator and senator know how you feel about this in Colorado? Squeaky wheels etc.
 
GRA said:
Yes, I know some states don't allow it, and they need to change that. As the % of PEVs increase in a given state, so will the political pressure to fix this. It's bad enough that we still have gas prices to 1/10th cent, when the justification for it ended long ago.

BTW, have you let your local legislator and senator know how you feel about this in Colorado? Squeaky wheels etc.
Colorado isn't one of the states that prohibits charge stations billing by the kWh. So far as mandating sale by the kWh, that seems unnecessary. If drivers don't like the cost structure of some of those DCFC stations don't use them -- vote with your dollars.

[Of course that's easy for me to say: I pay nothing for Supercharging my car, having paid up-front for FUSC (Free Unlimited Supercharging) when I bought my CPO Tesla. Since then I've Supercharged it more than 458 times, every one of them on a road trip, since I have no local Supercharger Stations. At thirty miles away, the Montrose CO Supercharger Station will be the first "local" one in my six county area.]

Most EV charging is at home and public level 2 charging where I live is free. Public L2 stations here in Colorado are 80% paid for by a state grant fund. The money for the fund comes from a $50 per year extra registration fee on plug-in cars: $30 of which goes to roads and $20 goes to fund grants for charge stations. Colorado has long been one of the most EV supportive states. Perhaps that is because of air pollution problems in the Denver metro area, although that is speculation on my part (I haven't lived there in decades and don't get much state news here in my remote rural mountain county, population about 5000).
 
dgpcolorado said:
GRA said:
Yes, I know some states don't allow it, and they need to change that. As the % of PEVs increase in a given state, so will the political pressure to fix this. It's bad enough that we still have gas prices to 1/10th cent, when the justification for it ended long ago.

BTW, have you let your local legislator and senator know how you feel about this in Colorado? Squeaky wheels etc.
Colorado isn't one of the states that prohibits charge stations billing by the kWh. So far as mandating sale by the kWh, that seems unnecessary. If drivers don't like the cost structure of some of those DCFC stations don't use them -- vote with your dollars.


If I thought we could afford the time to let the free market play out, I'd agree with you. However, since virtually all current DC QCs only exist because of government subsidies, and there's no for-profit business model for them at this time, expansion in the number of stations will remain slow for the foreseeable future. As governments are already involved up to their necks in deploying QCs, they have the power (in states that allow per kWh pricing) to demand that any station they subsidize, which is virtually all of them, bill by the kWh.

Eventually (we hope) profitability will be possible unsubsidized (at a price per mile <= gas), at which point site buildout will massively accelerate and consequently real price competition will exist, with rates being advertised on sites just as gas stations do now. If we've already established per kWh pricing as the standard, new sites will have little choice but to follow suit.

Of course, if they don't and it seems necessary, there's always the option of passing a law requiring this for all sites.
-----------------------------------

dgpcolorado said:
[Of course that's easy for me to say: I pay nothing for Supercharging my car, having paid up-front for FUSC (Free Unlimited Supercharging) when I bought my CPO Tesla. Since then I've Supercharged it more than 458 times, every one of them on a road trip, since I have no local Supercharger Stations. At thirty miles away, the Montrose CO Supercharger Station will be the first "local" one in my six county area.]

Most EV charging is at home and public level 2 charging where I live is free. Public L2 stations here in Colorado are 80% paid for by a state grant fund. The money for the fund comes from a $50 per year extra registration fee on plug-in cars: $30 of which goes to roads and $20 goes to fund grants for charge stations. Colorado has long been one of the most EV supportive states. Perhaps that is because of air pollution problems in the Denver metro area, although that is speculation on my part (I haven't lived there in decades and don't get much state news here in my remote rural mountain county, population about 5000).
 
GRA said:
If I thought we could afford the time to let the free market play out, I'd agree with you. However, since virtually all current DC QCs only exist because of government subsidies, and there's no for-profit business model for them at this time, expansion in the number of stations will remain slow for the foreseeable future. As governments are already involved up to their necks in deploying QCs, they have the power (in states that allow per kWh pricing) to demand that any station they subsidize, which is virtually all of them, bill by the kWh...
Governments in Europe have been subsidizing DCFC stations. The US Federal government hasn't done much. A very few states have subsidized DCFC infrastructure. I think it is a stretch to call the VW settlement that funds EA a "government subsidy," even if that is sort of the result.

However, the biggest DCFC network was built and paid for by Tesla for its cars, since they wanted to demonstrate that EV use for road trips was both possible and practical and weren't willing to wait for such stations to be built by governments or commercial interests.

As you suggest, there isn't a viable for-profit business model for DCFC at present. Much of the problem is that most charging will be done at home or workplaces, so the gas station model doesn't transfer easily to EVs and DCFC. If you had a gas station in your garage, how often would you visit an actual gas station and its convenience store?

You may be right that the only way forward is both government subsidies and mandates. Not just for interstate DCFC but also for L2 charging infrastructure for those who don't have home charging. For example: street parking charging pedestals and requirements for charging in apartment and condo parking lots. (This sort of thing works against the goals of those who think that privately owned cars should be eliminated in favor of shared use self-driving cars, but that's another issue.)

Nevertheless, can you really see such government subsidies getting through the US Senate? How? Even the majority of states are ideologically opposed to such things, your state and mine being notable exceptions.
 
This ideological argument over payment by minute or kWh is silly.
The privately funded Ionity network in Europe in up to 0.79 Euros a kWh. No doubt GRA is a happy camper knowing he got what he sore dearly wants.

Personally, I favor by minute charging because it incentivizes people to use the chargers efficiently. As for the hapless 50 - 70 kW EVs, those are rare trip cars from the get go.
 
SageBrush said:
This ideological argument over payment by minute or kWh is silly.
The privately funded Ionity network in Europe in up to 0.79 Euros a kWh. No doubt GRA is a happy camper knowing he got what he sore dearly wants.

Personally, I favor by minute charging because it incentivizes people to use the chargers efficiently. As for the hapless 50 - 70 kW EVs, those are rare trip cars from the get go.
The problem is that a lot of those non Tesla Charge stations, such as ChargePoint, are limited in kW capacity, regardless of the ability of the car to accept charge. If the per minute charge was reasonable for the capacity of the charger, ok. But a combination of per minute plus a kWh fee makes it really hard to determine the cost of charging at a particular DCFC station. (I realize that the arithmetic is really easy for you but you are very atypical IME.)

Throw in a lot of ChargePoint stations that are currently marked as "Power Reduced" — what does that mean? — and how does one figure out how much a station will cost? No, best to keep it simple and charge by energy units.
 
dgpcolorado said:
But a combination of per minute plus a kWh fee makes it really hard to determine the cost of charging at a particular DCFC station. (I realize that the arithmetic is really easy for you but you are very atypical IME.)
There should be a logical fallacy called 'appeal to vanity.'
Throw in a lot of ChargePoint stations that are currently marked as "Power Reduced" — what does that mean? — and how does one figure out how much a station will cost? No, best to keep it simple and charge by energy units.
For the arithmetically challenged: There is an App for that
 
GRA said:
If I thought we could afford the time to let the free market play out, I'd agree with you. However, since virtually all current DC QCs only exist because of government subsidies, and there's no for-profit business model for them at this time, expansion in the number of stations will remain slow for the foreseeable future. As governments are already involved up to their necks in deploying QCs, they have the power (in states that allow per kWh pricing) to demand that any station they subsidize, which is virtually all of them, bill by the kWh...
Governments in Europe have been subsidizing DCFC stations. The US Federal government hasn't done much. A very few states have subsidized DCFC infrastructure. I think it is a stretch to call the VW settlement that funds EA a "government subsidy," even if that is sort of the result.


We disagree on that. The $2b that EA has to spend would otherwise be paid into the general fund as fines. EA is directed by the government on how to spend that money, so they're just cutting out one step. Seeing as how we're in the Colorado EV Fast Charging Corridors topic, IIRR those stations are being paid for largely by Colorado's share of the VW settlement.
[Edit]: Yeah, here you go:

Volkswagen Diesel Emissions Settlement

The State of Colorado will receive over $68.7 million from a settlement with the car manufacturer Volkswagen Group of America. The funds will be used to reduce air pollution in Colorado. Colorado will fund certain eligible projects to reduce nitrogen oxide emissions from the transportation sector. In addition to cutting NOx emissions, the projects that receive funding are likely to reduce ozone concentrations and emissions of carbon dioxide and other pollutants.

The Colorado Department of Public Health and Environment is the state’s lead agency to oversee how this money is distributed and spent. We coordinated with the Colorado Department of Transportation, Colorado Energy Office, Regional Air Quality Council, and other agencies to help develop Colorado's Beneficiary Mitigation Plan.


Colorado allocated $10.33m of that to build the Fast Charging Corridors.



dgpcolorado said:
However, the biggest DCFC network was built and paid for by Tesla for its cars, since they wanted to demonstrate that EV use for road trips was both possible and practical and weren't willing to wait for such stations to be built by governments or commercial interests.

As you suggest, there isn't a viable for-profit business model for DCFC at present. Much of the problem is that most charging will be done at home or workplaces, so the gas station model doesn't transfer easily to EVs and DCFC. If you had a gas station in your garage, how often would you visit an actual gas station and its convenience store?


As long as ownership of EVs is restricted to people who own detached single family homes, I'd agree with you. But the places where pollution is the worst and ZEVs most needed are in higher density cities, which is why a lot of subsidized QCs are now being built at supermarkets etc., so that apartment/condo dwellers can realistically use a BEV. The two nearest QCs to me are at a bank (EA) and a supermarket (EVgo).


dgpcolorado said:
You may be right that the only way forward is both government subsidies and mandates. Not just for interstate DCFC but also for L2 charging infrastructure for those who don't have home charging. For example: street parking charging pedestals and requirements for charging in apartment and condo parking lots. (This sort of thing works against the goals of those who think that privately owned cars should be eliminated in favor of shared use self-driving cars, but that's another issue.)


While California now requires all new MUDs to be equipped for (but IIRR not with) charging, the existing housing stock has an average lifetime of 100 years, and retrofitting, even where it's possible, is very expensive and slow. The lack of charging at MUDs will constrain where PEV owners can live for decades. Public QCs at sites they regularly visit long enough to provide a useful charge, along with workplace L2, will allow a much quicker transition. As to curbside chargers, that's the most expensive and long-term option of all, as it requires tearing up and replacing sidewalks, and cities aren't going to be keen on doing that, even under the unlikely assumption they could afford to, ahead of the sidewalk's lifetime.


dgpcolorado said:
Nevertheless, can you really see such government subsidies getting through the US Senate? How? Even the majority of states are ideologically opposed to such things, your state and mine being notable exceptions.


Re the Senate, depends what happens in Georgia, as well as what happens in 2022 and 2024. But states with half the U.S. population getting going is better than none.
 
SageBrush said:
This ideological argument over payment by minute or kWh is silly.
The privately funded Ionity network in Europe in up to 0.79 Euros a kWh. No doubt GRA is a happy camper knowing he got what he sore dearly wants.

What are gas prices in the same country(s)?


SageBrush said:
Personally, I favor by minute charging because it incentivizes people to use the chargers efficiently. As for the hapless 50 - 70 kW EVs, those are rare trip cars from the get go.


You forgot to write "Let them eat cake".
 
SageBrush said:
dgpcolorado said:
But a combination of per minute plus a kWh fee makes it really hard to determine the cost of charging at a particular DCFC station. (I realize that the arithmetic is really easy for you but you are very atypical IME.)
There should be a logical fallacy called 'appeal to vanity.'
Throw in a lot of ChargePoint stations that are currently marked as "Power Reduced" — what does that mean? — and how does one figure out how much a station will cost? No, best to keep it simple and charge by energy units.
For the arithmetically challenged: There is an App for that


Yeah, right. Or we could just use a simple, universal, easy to compare method that anyone can use without having to do a bit of math. It's bad enough that gas prices still end in 9/10ths, decades after there was any practical justification for it, only leaving a psychological one.
 
GRA said:
Yeah, right. Or we could just use a simple, universal, easy to compare method that anyone can use without having to do a bit of math. It's bad enough that gas prices still end in 9/10ths, decades after there was any practical justification for it, only leaving a psychological one.
Just so.
 
Back
Top