Unfair DC fast charge pricing for LEAFs

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alozzy

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 20, 2017
Messages
2,616
Location
Vancouver, BC
In British Columbia (BC) where I live, we have a utilities commission (BCUC) that essentially makes it impossible for private enterprises to resell electric power. As a consequence, all of the DC fast charging stations charge by the minute or by the hour.

I find it really annoying that a newer EV owner can charge at a 100 kW rate, while my LEAF charges at a much lower rate and then drops even lower as my 24 kWh tops off, yet we both pay the same amount ($0.21 per minute is typical). In winter, I pay even more as the LEAF charges even slower...

For example, on a recent DC fast charge session, I charged my LEAF for 26 minutes, received 9.6 kWh of energy, and paid $5.58 - so, about $0.60 per kWh!

A newer EV owner could receive 5 times that amount of energy in the same amount of time (if they were able to sustain 100 kW average rate). Thanks to the BC utility commission, I can't pay for the units of energy I actually received.

It's little wonder that those newer EV owners sit and charge for more than an hour, as they are getting a much better deal (closer to $0.12/kWh, which is very reasonable).

I'm curious if this injustice is unique to BC (or other Canadian provinces with monopolized electric power generation), or if it's also common across US states.
 
It is a patchwork in the USA -- some by the minute and some volumetric.
California legislated volumetric charging in the last year or two.

The discussion in regulatory circles is consumer oriented, but not around cost. The desire is to simplify charging cost to something an average Merkin can understand. Cost per gallon of electricity is their ideal, but cost per kWh is their second best.

And then there are a few interested people that realize that a faster charging network enables the transition to EV, but it is more expensive due mostly to demand charges, but also cost of hardware. They advocate for a democritization/socialization of these costs, meaning e.g that LEAFS like you pay for a service you do not use (for now.)

The predictable irony to the (and funny to me) CA story is that EV owners like cwerdna joined the cry for volumetric pricing thinking it would lead to cheaper charging for them. All they got for their victory was high volumetric charges for everybody.
 
SageBrush said:
The predictable irony to the (and funny to me) CA story is that EV owners like cwerdna joined the cry for volumetric pricing thinking it would lead to cheaper charging. All they got for their victory was high volumetric charges for everybody.
It's something I wanted but I don't think I ever thought that it would automatically lead to it. If I posted that, I sure have forgotten about that. I'm sure there were some who thought it'd lead to cheaper charging.

I recall being rightfully concerned that per kWh pricing wouldn't necessarily lead to cheaper charging. I'm pretty sure I posted something to that effect. It obviously didn't with EA.

The whole price per kWh legislation in CA is more complicated (e.g. in terms of display requirement, when it goes into effect, etc.)
 
cwerdna said:
It's something I wanted but I don't think I ever thought that it would automatically lead to it.
Your memory is selective, just like your collection of anecdotes.

Let me help you: you whined non-stop that your (up to 55 kW) hobbled Bolt was paying too much for DC fast charging, and you wanted volumetric pricing to reduce your costs. Just like OP
 
SageBrush said:
Your memory is selective, just like your collection of anecdotes.
:roll:
SageBrush said:
Let me help you: you whined non-stop that your (up to 55 kW) hobbled Bolt was paying too much for DC fast charging,
No. I was happy with the (IIRC) 18 cent per minute pricing in the sense that if I cut it off at the 1st taper, the effective per kWh rate was low.

However, I was annoyed if charging was slow below 50ish% SoC due to a cold battery.
SageBrush said:
and you wanted volumetric pricing to reduce your costs.
I don't recall saying that. However, if it became 18 to 20 cents per kWh straight across the board, sure, I'd have been ok with that. But, when companies make changes, who knows what the resulting effective price will be?

Many folks have wanted per kWh billing, for whatever reason (e.g. they wanted to charge fuller and well into the taper(s)). I probably even said something to the effect of "be careful what you wish for". I recall generally staying out of such arguments because I feared what changes could lead to.

Once EA changed to per kWh pricing in CA, I got into arguments with others like these:
https://www.chevybolt.org/threads/more-fun-with-electrify-america.37542/page-2#post-588510
https://www.chevybolt.org/threads/more-fun-with-electrify-america.37542/page-2#post-588674

If anything, I want cheaper overall pricing, regardless of it's time vs. per kWh-based.

Maybe you're mixing me up with someone else?
 
This current obsession with reducing charging times isn't going to scale well without a massive infrastructure investment that tax payers end up paying for. Does anyone really need 800V charging? It's a luxury, not a necessity AFAIK.

The irony is that first time EV owners soon realize that the majority of their charging happens at home, overnight, and it meets their range needs. So, the biggest objections to EV adoption - range anxiety and charging time - turn out to be minor complaints for most owners of newer EVs.

Another irony is that those who can least afford DC fast charging, yet will use it the most, are people who live in condos that don't provide L2 charging opportunities. If the world is going to have to switch over to BEVs within the next decade or two, government is either going to have to subsidize EV charging for low income people who can't afford a house, or low income people will have to give up car ownership which puts them at a competitive disadvantage.

FYI, in BC we have flat per kWh pricing for residential, so volumetric pricing isn't a consideration (yet). Even if it was, I would be fine with paying per kWh rates that are time of day based, as that at least means that the person charging his newer EV beside me pays a proportionate amount for the kWhs transferred to the EV pack.

Perhaps a blended approach would be more fair. For example, the first 15 minutes of charging is at a low per kWh rate, then the next 15 minutes increases the per kWh rate by 50%, and after 30 minutes it just gets silly expensive to continue charging.
 
alozzy said:
This current obsession with reducing charging times isn't going to scale well without a massive infrastructure investment that tax payers end up paying for. Does anyone really need 800V charging? It's a luxury, not a necessity AFAIK.

The irony is that first time EV owners soon realize that the majority of their charging happens at home, overnight, and it meets their range needs. So, the biggest objections to EV adoption - range anxiety and charging time - turn out to be minor complaints for most owners of newer EVs.

Another irony is that those who can least afford DC fast charging, yet will use it the most, are people who live in condos that don't provide L2 charging opportunities. If the world is going to have to switch over to BEVs within the next decade or two, government is either going to have to subsidize EV charging for low income people who can't afford a house, or low income people will have to give up car ownership which puts them at a competitive disadvantage.

FYI, in BC we have flat per kWh pricing for residential, so volumetric pricing isn't a consideration (yet). Even if it was, I would be fine with paying per kWh rates that are time of day based, as that at least means that the person charging his newer EV beside me pays a proportionate amount for the kWhs transferred to the EV pack.

Perhaps a blended approach would be more fair. For example, the first 15 minutes of charging is at a low per kWh rate, then the next 15 minutes increases the per kWh rate by 50%, and after 30 minutes it just gets silly expensive to continue charging.

Kudos for filing the complaint. We also live in BC and are 2 blocks from one of the new combination Supercharger/FLO stations. So 12 x supercharger and 4 x FLO. On the first day it opened we were just coming back from a road trip and arriving home with just below 20 percent on our model 3. For the photo op I thought I would get a picture of the car plugged into a FLO station and a supercharger. FLO was 25 cents per minute and Supercharger was the standard dual tier rate. (I think it’s still 14 cents tier one and 28 cents tier 2 (above 60 KW) but not sure.

Hooked up to the FLO station (50 kw) with the Chademo adapter and I think I got around 42 kw (not sure) for a rate. Took the picture, moved over to the Supercharger and hooked up. (V3 supercharger). It pinned at 250 kw within a minute. Took my picture and went home. But that right there highlighted for me the extreme disadvantage that some EV owners have to put up with. Plain and simply not fair. I’m glad you put in your complaint. I would be happy to submit a complaint if you can tell me where you sent it.

Thanks.
 
alozzy said:
This current obsession with reducing charging times isn't going to scale well without a massive infrastructure investment that tax payers end up paying for. Does anyone really need 800V charging? It's a luxury, not a necessity AFAIK.
800v charging, if anything, *reduces* demand costs.


The irony is that first time EV owners soon realize that the majority of their charging happens at home, overnight, and it meets their range needs. So, the biggest objections to EV adoption - range anxiety and charging time - turn out to be minor complaints for most owners of newer EVs.
Range anxiety occurs during trips. Charging time complaints occur during long trips out of town. At home charging is not relevant to either once the car has consumed its starting energy.


Another irony is that those who can least afford DC fast charging, yet will use it the most, are people who live in condos that don't provide L2 charging opportunities. If the world is going to have to switch over to BEVs within the next decade or two, government is either going to have to subsidize EV charging for low income people who can't afford a house, or low income people will have to give up car ownership which puts them at a competitive disadvantage.
I am so sick of penny pinchers, who could care less about the less monied people, trot them out whenever they want to whine. The known solutions to high demand charges are storage and higher utilization.


FYI, in BC we have flat per kWh pricing for residential, so volumetric pricing isn't a consideration (yet).
Volumetric *means* per kWh. As in: per amount of energy
 
alozzy said:
In British Columbia (BC) where I live, we have a utilities commission (BCUC) that essentially makes it impossible for private enterprises to resell electric power. As a consequence, all of the DC fast charging stations charge by the minute or by the hour.

I find it really annoying that a newer EV owner can charge at a 100 kW rate, while my LEAF charges at a much lower rate and then drops even lower as my 24 kWh tops off, yet we both pay the same amount ($0.21 per minute is typical). In winter, I pay even more as the LEAF charges even slower...

For example, on a recent DC fast charge session, I charged my LEAF for 26 minutes, received 9.6 kWh of energy, and paid $5.58 - so, about $0.60 per kWh!

A newer EV owner could receive 5 times that amount of energy in the same amount of time (if they were able to sustain 100 kW average rate). Thanks to the BC utility commission, I can't pay for the units of energy I actually received.

It's little wonder that those newer EV owners sit and charge for more than an hour, as they are getting a much better deal (closer to $0.12/kWh, which is very reasonable).

I'm curious if this injustice is unique to BC (or other Canadian provinces with monopolized electric power generation), or if it's also common across US states.

I feel the same way about my 1960's heating system in my house. I am thinking about complaining as well. Can I see what you said for some tips?
 
alozzy said:
I find it really annoying that a newer EV owner can charge at a 100 kW rate, while my LEAF charges at a much lower rate and then drops even lower as my 24 kWh tops off, yet we both pay the same amount ($0.21 per minute is typical). In winter, I pay even more as the LEAF charges even slower...

I agree on the technical side, you have two EV, one charging faster than the other, so in theory it is consuming more energy faster and ends up paying the same price. So put it in perspective, you have new Leaf+ and a new Tesla Model 3, for the sake of argument, both are using a QC next to each other from the same company. The Leaf is charging at 50 kW, the Model 3 at 250 kW. First, which is creating a greater demand on the grid, well the Model 3. Which one will finish first, well let's say for the sake of argument, both are going to charge for 15 minutes and go about their business, neither owner is in the middle of a road trip. After 15 minutes, the Leaf owner consumed (15/60 * 50,000) 12.5 kWh of power. The Model 3 owner consumed (15/60 * 250,000) 62.5 kWh of power. They both nod to each other, wish each other a good day and drive off. They both get a text message with the bill for the time. They both were only charged a session time of 15 minutes for the same price, so basically the Model 3 got 5x more power for the same price as the Leaf+. Now take those numbers and plug them into utility bill for a consumer and they will ask "why did 5x more power cost the same when the only difference was the vehicle it was being fed into?" and that's where consumers get the rub.

Now, on the flip side, let's be the charge station provider. I build an EV QC station with 5 stations. I want to maximize profit because we ain't doing this out of the goodness of our hearts. The power company won't give me a discount for using "less power", I only get the lower rates the higher I go. So someone charging at 50 kW is going to cost me more than someone charging at 250 kW. The next issue is that I will probably have more people charging at the lower rates than at the higher rates. I also don't want someone having an EV plugged in for hours charging at a low rate and trying to hit 100% SOC also taking up a spot for another customer that could be charging and paying. That's where all those session fees come in, to make up the difference. When then the root of the problem is the power company is only giving discounts for using more power, not less.

So, from my own experience, this is what I've noticed.
To charge my Leaf, Electrify America is the cheapest as it's charging mainly for the power and not the time so much. I can put 200 miles of range on my Leaf for less than $7 most of the time if the battery is low enough and the temperature is good.
Using Blink QC stations, they charge by the minute. That same session to get 200 miles of range ends up costing $32 because of the time needed.
EVGo is a hybrid model with a small charge for kWh consumed, but still a hefty session time charge, so that 200 miles of range ends up costing about $18

These stations are all right next to each other where I live but the price difference is insane, no wonder consumers are confused by all of this.
Imagine if all the gas stations in your town had prices that varied from $2/gallon to $10/gallon for the same gas and not knowing that you are paying too much at one station when you could have driven to another one for cheaper. That's the rub that I think a lot of new EV owners feel when they find this out and for those of us with the technical skills to know what the power consumption of the vehicle means, it seems like some networks are being sensible with pricing and the others are just price gouging the others that don't know any better until they find out from the friend and get angry. :evil:

That is only for those that have that choice like where I am, imagine if your only QC network in town was Blink and you are stuck with those high prices all the time...
 
DaveinOlyWA said:
I feel the same way about my 1960's heating system in my house. I am thinking about complaining as well. Can I see what you said for some tips?
*That* was funny
 
Just as a note. California has mandated charging by the KWH. It applies to new station installs first with old stations being phased into the program at some later date. Seems that they think electrical power should follow the same rules as gas stations. I.E. it's not how long you pump but how much fuel is delivered.
 
[Mod: user warned over language - post edited to remove slurs]

Typical, sarcastic comments from * and *. Thanks for your valuable contributions to the discussion. Obviously, I'm just a whiner and I should stop complaining about paying $0.60 per kWh.
 
alozzy said:
Typical, sarcastic comments from * and *. Thanks for your valuable contributions to the discussion. Obviously, I'm just a whiner and I should stop complaining about paying $0.60 per kWh.

Sorry, what did you say? MIssed it because I was reading about the people who pay over 30 cents/kwh for "HOME" electricity...

We were ALL in your position and we were ALSO not happy about it but there are options

Do nothing
Do something.

I found complaining didn't do anything.

In reality the argument should be merged into the other "I am persecuted" thread and move you into the "I only drive 2,000 miles a year so its unfair to pay $225 in registration fees every year so I should have a special law just for me and the other 6 people in my situation" crowd.

But the reality is you have chosen to take a VERY VERY good option and complain because its not perfect. Even I don't have the perfect solution with my "100 KW" car (which charges no faster than 76 KW for no longer than 12 mins, btw...)

FYI; in this world, it doesn't take much effort to find something to complain about. We have MULTI billionaires complaining right now despite a seemingly easy, carefree and stressless future. . That is how easy it is to find fault. It does take more energy to realize that life isn't perfect nor should it be. Because if it were, we would lose the desire to strive. To innovate, to adapt.

Finally; come to WA and use the free DC charger courtesy of EVCS. This should cut your costs in half. ;)
 
DaveinOlyWA said:
In reality the argument should be merged into the other "I am persecuted" thread and move you into the "I only drive 2,000 miles a year so its unfair to pay $225 in registration fees every year so I should have a special law just for me and the other 6 people in my situation" crowd.

For years, OP has been DCFC'g for free. It was a god given right because he is special. Now some socialist government wants him to help foot the bill of a large infrastructure roll-out.

The nerve !
It's persecution, I tell you
He should sue for mental anguish, dump that POS EV into the nearest lake, and get a hummer.
 
Enough with the trolling, you two. The OP has a valid concern and he took reasonable action to make it known. People who blog edit-free and then promote it, or who attack everyone with whom they have the slightest disagreement, are in a poor position to be overly critical.
 
Put up solar and only charge at home! It's the only way to beat the rising cost of electricity. If you have to charge on long trips, that's the cost of doing business.
 
Request that a mod move this post to the "Local / Regional Discussions" -> "Canada" subforum. I received a reply to the complaint I sent to the BC Utility Commission who in turn got BC Hydro involved. The response would only be of interest to EV owners living in British Columbia, Canada.

Thanks in advance.
 
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