GCR: Poll: Majority of Californians back gasoline car ban

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GRA

Well-known member
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https://www.greencarreports.com/new...ornians-back-gasoline-car-ban-highly-partisan


A majority of Californians support the state's goal of banning sales of new internal-combustion vehicles by 2035, but opinions are highly partisan, according to a new poll conducted by UC Berkeley.

A newly passed state law requiring all new vehicles sold in California to be all-electric or plug-in hybrids received the backing of 55% or respondents, with 33% strongly in favor. In comparison, 39% said they opposed the plan, which gradually works up to a complete phaseout of the sales of new, non-plug-in gasoline and diesel vehicles over the next 12 years.

However, opinions were sharply divided by political party and ideology. While 77% of registered Democrats and 88% of voters considering themselves "strongly liberal in politics" supported the plan, 81% of Republicans and 79% of those identifying as strongly conservative were against it.

"The findings show how everyday issues, such as what type of car to drive, can become highly partisan in our contemporary, politically polarized reality," Cristina Mora, director of the poll, said in a statement.

Despite that, Americans overwhelmingly see EVs as better for the environment, according to a poll conducted in 2021. It found that two-thirds of Americans agreed that EVs were better for the environment, while another poll from around the same time showed bipartisan support for increased use of renewable energy.

A survey last year found that there was widespread, bipartisan support for EV adoption—although the ban wasn't something asked about, and it might be the point that strikes a nerve for Republicans.

Energy independence used to be something more widely preached by Republicans. Resistance from the Trump administration regarding EV policy might have played into this polarization.

Yet even at the height of the previous administration's antagonism against green cars, a 2019 survey found that 77% viewed EVs positively—including 70% of Republicans. So perhaps the prospect of a gas-car ban has altered the situation.


:roll:
 
Nothing surprising. Lots of people hanging on to the "gasoline equals freedom" mindset that was already obsolete 50 years ago.

Oil-Crisis-1973.jpg


Unfortunately, the plan will likely not come to fruition as stated. CA has a long history of such "mandates" that never materialize but it's fun to dream. On the other hand, the transition will occur anyway as EVs just become inherently more attractive. Just maybe not on the "mandated" timeline. And just letting it happen naturally would be a lot less traumatic for the conservatives. Once it's a fait accompli they can pretend that they were "in favor of EVs all along".
 
Nubo said:
Unfortunately, the plan will likely not come to fruition as stated. CA has a long history of such "mandates" that never materialize but it's fun to dream. On the other hand, the transition will occur anyway as EVs just become inherently more attractive. Just maybe not on the "mandated" timeline.
Exactly. The "mandate" (https://ww2.arb.ca.gov/news/california-moves-accelerate-100-new-zero-emission-vehicle-sales-2035) still allows for 20% to be PHEVs but yeah, as I've posted before in many other places, maybe here, it's not going to happen in CA by that time.

It'll likely get watered down or pushed out further. The previous CA ZEV mandate that spawned cars like GM EV1, gen 1 Rav4 EV, etc. totally flopped and eventually was WAY watered down. It's mentioned at the bottom of https://ww2.arb.ca.gov/our-work/programs/zero-emission-vehicle-program/about. Start from bottom up.

If it were something like 50% of new automobile sales in CA by 2035 must be ZEVs, that might be achievable.
 
cwerdna said:
Nubo said:
Unfortunately, the plan will likely not come to fruition as stated. CA has a long history of such "mandates" that never materialize but it's fun to dream. On the other hand, the transition will occur anyway as EVs just become inherently more attractive. Just maybe not on the "mandated" timeline.
Exactly. The "mandate" (https://ww2.arb.ca.gov/news/california-moves-accelerate-100-new-zero-emission-vehicle-sales-2035) still allows for 20% to be PHEVs but yeah, as I've posted before in many other places, maybe here, it's not going to happen in CA by that time.

It'll likely get watered down or pushed out further. The previous CA ZEV mandate that spawned cars like GM EV1, gen 1 Rav4 EV, etc. totally flopped and eventually was WAY watered down. It's mentioned at the bottom of https://ww2.arb.ca.gov/our-work/programs/zero-emission-vehicle-program/about. Start from bottom up.

If it were something like 50% of new automobile sales in CA by 2035 must be ZEVs, that might be achievable.


It's 51% by 2028, harder than 2035 but still doable, especially since it includes PHEVs. And even after 2035, the "they'll have to pry my ICE from my cold, dead fingers" crowd will still be able to buy new ICEs out of state and bring them in. That being said, I will miss driving a stick, and I'd prefer to see this occur because customers choose the cars, not because they're forced to buy them. Still, high goals with deadlines help to concentrate people's minds.

The 1990s mandate got watered down because the cars were incapable of meeting needs beyond short-distance commuting along with all the other issues, and that held true until the Volt and Model S were introduced. Now, thanks partly to more capable and desirable cars available in more market segments (especially the more popular ones), partly to a state population more receptive to environmental concerns (particularly climate-change induced drought and wildfires) than many, partly to high new car prices that limit new car sales to those with well above median incomes, and (especially) recently to highest in the nation gas prices, IIRR new PEV sales % was over 16% statewide in the 2nd Qtr, and over 27% here in the Bay Area.

Unfortunately PEVs sales price was an average of $18k more than the average ICE in the U.S., $66k vice $48k, so unless/until manufacturers are forced to stop loading the cars up with extra cost options and supply issues ease, it'll be impossible to meet the goals. To bring that about, the first thing that needs to change is the max. price allowed to still qualify for subsidies; that needs to be reduced radically. We need more Bolts/Niros, fewer Tesla/Porsche/Audi/Mercedes/Genesis.
 
Good news about the stick: many EV conversions of classic cars keep the manual transmission, and some even retain the clutch. You'd just need to do what lots of people do already: have a classic sports car on the side.
 
LeftieBiker said:
Good news about the stick: many EV conversions of classic cars keep the manual transmission, and some even retain the clutch. You'd just need to do what lots of people do already: have a classic sports car on the side.


I'm aware of the conversions - back when I was doing AE I had a customer with a Karmann Ghia he'd DIY'd. The thing is, with an electric motor's torque there's no point to more than maybe two gear ratios, one for performance and the other for range, so running up and down through the gears is pointless, plus there's the lack of noise (less of an issue for me now with my wholly artificial hearing, and to me BEV noise generators to make them sound more like an ICE are ludicrous in any case, trying to pretend to be something they're not) and vibration which are so much a part of the experience. I had lots of fun in my '69 Datsun 2000 Roadster; the closest I can get to shifting in a PEV is playing with regen paddles, but that misses the whole hand/foot coordination that makes a well-executed double-clutch downshift so satisfying.

Ah well, there'll probably be theme parks for a while where you can rent one for an half hour or so, until the number of people who know how to drive one dwindles away to nothing. Sales of new sticks in the U.S. dropped to 1% a couple of years ago, and the number of models that still offer them is shrinking all the time. Jan. 2022: https://www.autotrader.com/oversteer/new-manual-transmission-cars

At least the Impreza and Crosstrek still offer them (but not the Forester any longer; one of the reasons I chose my 2003 back then was that some of its contemporary competitors like the RAV4 and CR-V didn't offer them).
 
So put in a 20HP motor - you'll be shifting all the time, and from necessity, too!

I used to love to shift, too. It just faded away after I got my first Leaf. Now the shift to B is all I desire.
 
GRA said:
Unfortunately PEVs sales price was an average of $18k more than the average ICE in the U.S., $66k vice $48k, so unless/until manufacturers are forced to stop loading the cars up with extra cost options and supply issues ease, it'll be impossible to meet the goals. To bring that about, the first thing that needs to change is the max. price allowed to still qualify for subsidies; that needs to be reduced radically. We need more Bolts/Niros, fewer Tesla/Porsche/Audi/Mercedes/Genesis.

Moved to Mink Hole.

https://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=626240#p626240
 
^^^You're free to post a reply wherever you wish; I'll stay in this topic. Meanwhile, via CNN:
Chevrolet To Boost Bolt Production After Price Cuts Drive Demand
https://www.carscoops.com/2022/10/chevrolet-to-boost-bolt-production-after-price-cuts-drive-demand/


General Motors will ramp up production of the Chevrolet Bolt EV and Bolt EUV following strong sales of both models after their starting prices were slashed in June.

During the third-quarter, the car manufacturer sold 14,709 examples of the Bolt EV and Bolt EUV, a quarterly sales record for the two models. This comes after a troubled year for the duo when a recall halted production for six months and sales dried up. Despite the positive Q3, Bolt sales are still down 11 per cent for the first nine months of the year compared to the same period in 2021.

In response to strong sales, GM says it will increase Bolt calendar-year production for global markets from approximately 44,000 vehicles in 2022 to more than 70,000 in 2023.

Price cuts have generated renewed interest in the Bolt EV and Bolt EUV after months of bad publicity during the battery recall. A 2023 Bolt EV can now be purchased for as little as $26,595 including destination, representing a saving of $5,900 over the 2022 model. Additionally, prices for the 2023 Bolt EUV have dropped by $6,300 with it being available from $28,195. . . .


I have no idea if GM is making any money off the Bolt and EUV at the current prices (I suspect not), but clearly there's a market for BEV basic transportation; the Niro and Kona have also been selling well. So let's cut the price cap for a rebate for cars to say $40k instead of $60k, and the one for 'trucks' (which includes CUVs/SUVs) to say $50k from $80k, and see if the manufacturers start offering more BEVs without bundling them with all the extra-cost 'features': 12-way power leather seats, with massage! Power, hands-free liftgates! Panoramic glass roofs! Multi-color interior and exterior lighting!

They'll have to if they want to meet the sales mandates. A soft cap (every non-governmental fee $1 over the cap subtracts $1 from the rebate amount) would be okay, to give some option choice. Decrement the cap amount every year or two. Same for the income caps, so the money goes further and gets to the people who really need it.
 
LeftieBiker said:
So put in a 20HP motor - you'll be shifting all the time, and from necessity, too!

I used to love to shift, too. It just faded away after I got my first Leaf. Now the shift to B is all I desire.


I'm definitely not there yet. All the BEVs I've rented to date (bar the Think City back in the '90s) have had selectable on the fly multiple regen levels, giving me something to play with on descents and sometimes when driving fast in the twisties. <Snip>

In stop-and-go I agree that a strong, preferably one-pedal B mode is all you need, but fortunately I haven't had to do that regularly for a couple of decades thanks to commuting & errand running by bike. The freeways have gotten noticeably more congested and slower over that period, and I'd hate to have to commute in that now. Much as I distrust ACC, that plus a good B mode might make such a commute bearable.
 
GRA said:
In stop-and-go I agree that a strong, preferably one-pedal B mode is all you need, but fortunately I haven't had to do that regularly for a couple of decades thanks to commuting & errand running by bike. The freeways have gotten noticeably more congested and slower over that period, and I'd hate to have to commute in that now. Much as I distrust ACC, that plus a good B mode might make such a commute bearable.

The game changer for me has been adaptive cruise control and steering assist. When you are stuck in slow, or stop n' go traffic, it wears on your mentally to have to drive. I've found that when the Leaf does the boring stuff, it makes those kind of drives so much more pleasant. Then it's a matter of thinking "I'll be a X destination in some minutes" instead of "when will this traffic hell end?!" :lol:
 
OT.
GRA said:
LeftieBiker said:
So put in a 20HP motor - you'll be shifting all the time, and from necessity, too!

I used to love to shift, too. It just faded away after I got my first Leaf. Now the shift to B is all I desire.

I'm definitely not there yet. All the BEVs I've rented to date (bar the Think City back in the '90s) have had selectable on the fly multiple regen levels, giving me something to play with on descents and sometimes when driving fast in the twisties. <Snip>

In stop-and-go I agree that a strong, preferably one-pedal B mode is all you need, but fortunately I haven't had to do that regularly for a couple of decades thanks to commuting & errand running by bike. The freeways have gotten noticeably more congested and slower over that period, and I'd hate to have to commute in that now. Much as I distrust ACC, that plus a good B mode might make such a commute bearable.


IEVS:
Lexus Confirms Manual Transmission For EVs, LFA Successor May Get It

It's got a gearshift, a tachometer and a "clutch" pedal, and you can even stall the vehicle if you don't know how to drive stick shift.

https://insideevs.com/news/625264/l...ransmission-for-evs-lfa-successor-may-get-it/


. . . The company revealed it is testing a manual gearbox on a research prototype based on the Lexus UX 300e compact SUV, equipped with a gear lever and a "clutch" pedal—obviously, it's not connected to a clutch because Lexus's future EVs won't have such a thing.

The automaker motivates its decision to develop a manual transmission for EVs with the fact that many drivers prefer the control and engagement provided by this type of gearbox, which for them is an important part of a fun driving experience.

"From the outside, this vehicle is as quiet as any other BEV. But the driver is able to experience all the sensations of a manual transmission vehicle. It is a software-based system, so it can be programmed to reproduce the driving experience of different vehicle types, letting the driver choose their preferred mapping."

Takashi Watanabe, Lexus Electrified Chief Engineer

The automaker did not say when its manual transmission will come to market, but it noted that together with the Direct4 torque-vectoring AWD, One Motion Grip steer-by-wire and brake-by-wire systems—which are also software-based—the manual gearbox "will provide new opportunities for performance customization to provide a personalized experience for each driver."

During the presentation, Lexus showed a video demonstration of the manual transmission fitted to the Lexus UX 300e research prototype (skip to the 14:30 minute mark of the video above).

The system appears to mimic the operation of a manual transmission fitted to an internal combustion engine, complete with engine noise and even a tachometer. It's so realistic that the handheld camera jerks a little between shifts, and the driver may even stall the car or roll backwards on a hill start if the clutch is not engaged.

The Lexus Electrified Sport concept, which previews the all-electric successor to the LFA supercar, looks like the ideal candidate to offer the manual transmission. Lexus did not say it explicitly, but Watanabe talked about the manual gearbox while standing in front of the Electrified Sport, saying that "it might actually be on some of our future BEVs."

The Electrified Sport represents the brand's vision for a future halo sports car with a battery electric drivetrain capable of accelerating from zero to 100 km/h (62 mph) in around 2 seconds. Lexus is working on bringing it to production, Watanabe confirmed. . . .

There are no powertrain specs available yet, but given that the mind-blowing acceleration can't be achieved without all-wheel drive, it should have at least two electric motors. The manual transmission likely won't stand in the way of performance because it can be bypassed using a stalk on the steering column, as shown in the video demo—the stalk features L4, BEV, and V8 modes.

As for the range, Lexus previously said it will exceed 435 miles (700 kilometers), without mentioning on which test cycle it will achieve it.


From an ABG article reporting the same story:
"This new project all started with some Lexus engineers reflecting on what they liked about traditional [internal combustion] vehicles and what they had to miss out on with electric cars," said Watanabe. "[The] manual transmission was one thing they enjoyed in particular."

https://www.autoblog.com/2022/12/05/lexus-electrified-sports-flagship-car-manual-transmission/

H'mm. Apparently there are more than a few of us who'll miss shifting for ourselves. Ridiculous doing this in a BEV, still. . . . ;)
 
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