YouTube Video Extreme Cold Weather Test Charging Batteries

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AlexDarcy

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The 'Out of Spec Reviews' YouTube channel posted a video on 31.Dec.2022 testing the charging performance of a new Nissan Leaf SV Plus in extreme cold (-27 C / -18 F):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3mvUF4dJJcE

The new Leaf started up immediately, no problem, even after being left out overnight.

Quotes from the video:

"That's the Leaf thing, isn't it? They're really hardy vehicles. You see these things up in the arctic circle in the Scandinavian countries." (6:01)

"So far beating the Tesla Model 3 with cold weather performance." (14:53)

The Tesla required 45 minutes to even begin charging, while the CHAdeMO Leaf started charging immediately upon connection.

Another test in the video of an old bug-eyed Leaf did very poorly in the cold. It required a 12V battery jump.
 
Sending 4 - 5 kW to a very cold pack is not a good thing. Did the 62 kWh LEAF lose its pack heating ability, or is it just stupid ?
 
SageBrush said:
Sending 4 - 5 kW to a very cold pack is not a good thing. Did the 62 kWh LEAF lose its pack heating ability, or is it just stupid ?
Click to expand...
Maybe this answers the question about the 62kWh Leaf having a battery heater.........
It was painful watching this and the next 30-minute video showing when after purchasing and installing a new OEM Leaf battery they finally got his '13 Leaf working on the QC station. All the time all I could say is JUST LEAVE THE CAR HOOKED TO YOUR RIVIAN VIA HIS 12V BOOSTER CABLES UNTIL THE QC CHARGING STARTS, don't use that wimpy joke of a 12v jump starter.
After the 2 Leaf videos, I watched the next one in Queue of him trying to help getting an ID.4 going after his wife?? running out of charge near the middle of an intersection.....again a comedy of errors and issues :?
And no trying to charge your ID.4 with a Rivian via 120v at 8a isn't probably isn't going to gain you enough charge in an hour to do squat. I know when my '12 Leaf died in the driveway, 20 feet short of my EVSE it took over 2hrs @ 12a 120v to just get it to turn on and move the 20ft to my 240v EVSE.
 
jjeff said:
SageBrush said:
Sending 4 - 5 kW to a very cold pack is not a good thing. Did the 62 kWh LEAF lose its pack heating ability, or is it just stupid ?
Click to expand...
Maybe this answers the question about the 62kWh Leaf having a battery heater.........
Click to expand...

Indeed.
I googled the user manual for a 2017 LEAF and it says 'if so equipped,' implying some have a battery heater. A reddit thread mentioned that LEAFs destined for Canada are so provisioned. I don't know if USA destined LEAFs were given a choice.

Uggh. Pack damage from heat, pack damage from cold -- the LEAF has it all !!
 
SageBrush said:
Sending 4 - 5 kW to a very cold pack is not a good thing. Did the 62 kWh LEAF lose its pack heating ability, or is it just stupid ?
Click to expand...

4 to 5 kW is roughly 4000/180,000 = 0.02 C which is correctly in line with charge rate at –30°C (–22°F) for 0.02C, so no damage would happen. It's interesting because it's just enough power to keep you warm if your Leaf was a lifeboat and do a little charging at the same time. The Leaf could certainly charge with more power if it wanted to as the battery warms up.
 
SageBrush said:
Sending 4 - 5 kW to a very cold pack is not a good thing. Did the 62 kWh LEAF lose its pack heating ability, or is it just stupid ?
Click to expand...

In the video, the Leaf still had something like 38% charge, even after sitting out in the cold for 1 or 2 nights, so there was power enough to run the battery heater.
 
AlexDarcy said:
Another test in the video of an old bug-eyed Leaf did very poorly in the cold. It required a 12V battery jump.
Click to expand...
He mentioned in the video that he left an ODBII dongle plugged in and probably ran the 12V battery down. I think if the 12V battery was healthier, it would have at least started up. But he also left it out for days in the cold, so the battery heater probably ate up the rest of his charge. It was a poorly planned experiment indeed, seemed to be more for entertainment value with no context like battery temperatures or 12V battery state, etc. :(
 
knightmb said:
SageBrush said:
Sending 4 - 5 kW to a very cold pack is not a good thing. Did the 62 kWh LEAF lose its pack heating ability, or is it just stupid ?
Click to expand...

4 to 5 kW is roughly 4000/180,000 = 0.02 C which is correctly in line with charge rate at –30°C (–22°F) for 0.02C, so no damage would happen.
Click to expand...

C-rate is 1/12 = 0.083 for 5 kW and 60 kWh battery

Regarding 0.02C at -30C, Battery Uni had this to say:
Many battery users are unaware that consumer-grade lithium-ion batteries cannot be charged below 0°C (32°F). Although the pack appears to be charging normally, plating of metallic lithium occurs on the anode during a sub-freezing charge that leads to a permanent degradation in performance and safety. Batteries with lithium plating are more vulnerable to failure if exposed to vibration or other stressful conditions. Advanced chargers (Cadex) prevent charging Li-ion below freezing.

Advancements are being made to charge Li-ion below freezing temperatures. Charging is indeed possible with most lithium-ion cells but only at very low currents. According to research papers, the allowable charge rate at –30°C (–22°F) is 0.02C. At this low current, the charge time would stretch to over 50 hours, a time that is deemed impractical. There are, however, specialty Li-ions that can charge down to –10°C (14°F) at a reduced rate.

Some Li-ion manufacturers offer custom-made cells for cold-charging. Specialty chargers will also be needed that decrease the C-rate according to temperature and charge the battery to a lower voltage peak; 4.00V/cell rather than the customary 4.20V/cell for example. Such limitations decrease the energy a Li-ion battery can hold to roughly 80% instead of the customary 100%. Charge times will also be prolonged and can last 12 hours and longer when cold.

Li-ion batteries charging below 0°C (32°F) must undergo regulatory issue to certify that no lithium plating will occur. In addition, a specially designed charger will keep the allotted current and voltage within a safe limit throughout the temperature bandwidth. Certification of such batteries and chargers are very costly that will reflect in the price. Similar regulatory requirements also apply to intrinsically safe batteries (See BU-304: Why Are Protection Circuits Needed?)

There are cell and charger manufacturers claiming to charge Li-ion at low temperatures; however, most companies do not want to take the risk of potential failure and assume liability. Yes, Li-ion will charge at low temperature but research labs dissecting these batteries see concerning results.
Click to expand...

So ~ 1.2 kW is "allowed."
 
A real-world anecdote: 2019 Leaf S+, 41K miles, entering 4th winter in Vermont (where it still gets cold), Leaf is our regular driver (in other words we just charge it and drive it all the time including winter), ChargePoint EVSE 16 amp set to charge between 12 AM and 5 AM (coldest time of day), SOH 93.43. That is acceptable to me.
 
dmacarthur said:
A real-world anecdote: 2019 Leaf S+, 41K miles, entering 4th winter in Vermont (where it still gets cold), Leaf is our regular driver (in other words we just charge it and drive it all the time including winter), ChargePoint EVSE 16 amp set to charge between 12 AM and 5 AM (coldest time of day), SOH 93.43.
Click to expand...

^^ Smart routine.

For our Bolt, I chose 1/6 C-rate and pack temps of 40 - 50F in the winter. Our frequent charging lets us set the max SoC to 65%.
Here is a nice article on the topic with practical application https://www.mdpi.com/2313-0105/8/11/234/pdf

I think either routine is pretty reasonable. The OP is a different matter where the pack is cold soaked and around -20F.
 
dmacarthur said:
A real-world anecdote: 2019 Leaf S+, 41K miles, entering 4th winter in Vermont (where it still gets cold), Leaf is our regular driver (in other words we just charge it and drive it all the time including winter), ChargePoint EVSE 16 amp set to charge between 12 AM and 5 AM (coldest time of day), SOH 93.43. That is acceptable to me.
Click to expand...

great info! questions?

1. Is your Leaf garaged all winter?

2. I would assume you have back to back days where you don't drive the car for whatever reason and the car gets really frozen. Do you notice any change in charging if the car is really frozen?

3. Do you charge to 100% daily?
 
watchdoc said:
2. I would assume you have back to back days where you don't drive the car for whatever reason and the car gets really frozen. Do you notice any change in charging if the car is really frozen?
Click to expand...

Yes, this is the crux of the matter: how to handle EV charging when cold soaked.
My preference is to avoid the scenario as best I can, even with an EV that has a battery warmer. The LEAF is that much more problematic.
 
SageBrush said:
watchdoc said:
2. I would assume you have back to back days where you don't drive the car for whatever reason and the car gets really frozen. Do you notice any change in charging if the car is really frozen?
Click to expand...

Yes, this is the crux of the matter: how to handle EV charging when cold soaked.
My preference is to avoid the scenario as best I can, even with an EV that has a battery warmer. The LEAF is that much more problematic.
Click to expand...

Why is the Leaf more problematic?
 
watchdoc said:
SageBrush said:
watchdoc said:
2. I would assume you have back to back days where you don't drive the car for whatever reason and the car gets really frozen. Do you notice any change in charging if the car is really frozen?
Click to expand...

Yes, this is the crux of the matter: how to handle EV charging when cold soaked.
My preference is to avoid the scenario as best I can, even with an EV that has a battery warmer. The LEAF is that much more problematic.
Click to expand...

Why is the Leaf more problematic?
Click to expand...
Because it does not have a battery warmer, or does not use it. Canadian LEAFs may be different.
 
SageBrush said:
knightmb said:
SageBrush said:
Sending 4 - 5 kW to a very cold pack is not a good thing. Did the 62 kWh LEAF lose its pack heating ability, or is it just stupid ?
Click to expand...

4 to 5 kW is roughly 4000/180,000 = 0.02 C which is correctly in line with charge rate at –30°C (–22°F) for 0.02C, so no damage would happen.
Click to expand...

C-rate is 1/12 = 0.083 for 5 kW and 60 kWh battery
Click to expand...

LOL, I was thinking of maximum power instead of the rate, good catch. :?
So 4000 / 60000 = 0.067C or 4000 / 62000 = 0.065, so not much difference between the two 60/62 kWh packs. Interesting that the Leaf knows to lower the charge power way down, but not down far enough? I wonder if the QC station was forcing that much power in versus what the Leaf was requesting. It would be interesting to see what it does on an L2 session, would it also lower the power going into the battery from 6kW to 4-5kW?
 
great info! questions?

1. Is your Leaf garaged all winter?

2. I would assume you have back to back days where you don't drive the car for whatever reason and the car gets really frozen. Do you notice any change in charging if the car is really frozen?

3. Do you charge to 100% daily?
Click to expand...

No garage, outdoor temperatures.

Since we charge at night, we don't monitor the charging rate but have never noticed it adding less than the normal 35% capacity to the battery.

And no, never to 100%- we plug in only when the night's charge will end up below about 80%. As an example, we will plug in at 45% but not 50%, which still gives us plenty of range for most daily driving.
 
knightmb said:
SageBrush said:
knightmb said:
4 to 5 kW is roughly 4000/180,000 = 0.02 C which is correctly in line with charge rate at –30°C (–22°F) for 0.02C, so no damage would happen.
Click to expand...

C-rate is 1/12 = 0.083 for 5 kW and 60 kWh battery
Click to expand...
It would be interesting to see what it does on an L2 session, would it also lower the power going into the battery from 6kW to 4-5kW?
Click to expand...

Either way, it is destructive charging. Nissan is leaving it to the car owner to not charge at very cold pack temperatures. Perhaps the programming is better when the car is provisioned with a battery warmer. I do understand why charging is allowed -- the alternative would be forced stranding. The knuckle-headed result here was to not have a battery warming period, either because of bad programming or because some packs do not have a battery warmer. If the latter, that is some nasty cost cutting on Nissan's part. At a minimum, Nissan should make it very clear in the User manual what pack temperatures are too low for charging without pack damage.

One thing is for sure -- I don't want my EV to be anywhere near the threshold for Li plating. I'll have to give some more thought to whether I should drop home charging from 40 to 32 Amps during the winter. This discussion was helpful to me, since in my reading of the article I posted I learned about the relationship between Li plating and SoC. For now, our Bolt pack gets 0.15 C-rate charging at up to 65% SoC and as low as 45F (7C). I know from driving that regen well above 10 kW is allowed when I start my drive, which suggests that more conservative charging is not going to reduce pack degradation. Either my current charging routine is safe; or if not, it will be overshadowed by what happens in regen.

Regarding Kyle and his brilliant channel -- that is one hardy Viking. I imagine him taking a bath yelling "MORE ICE !!!." His wife is pretty stout too, and a remarkably good sport. The two of them spent the entire night outside in -20F testing an array of cars. Crazy. FWIW though, I disagree with his recommendation to winter charge before departure. I understand the advantages, but I don't care to increase the risk of Li plating.
 
From the article I posted above:

uc


Staying above the dotted line is presumed safe territory against Li plating. This graph is 0.5 C-rate, so home charging should have a considerable built-in safety factor. In the absence of more information, I would not exceed 80% SoC in L2 charging when the pack is cold soaked in under 20F ambient temperatures. Chalk up one more brain-dead decision by Nissan, this one in not giving owners a way to limit the SoC to 80% when they nerfed battery warming.

I know most of the attention the LEAF gets is its hot weather issues, but cold weather damage is real.
 
SageBrush said:
knightmb said:
SageBrush said:
C-rate is 1/12 = 0.083 for 5 kW and 60 kWh battery
Click to expand...
It would be interesting to see what it does on an L2 session, would it also lower the power going into the battery from 6kW to 4-5kW?
Click to expand...

Either way, it is destructive charging. Nissan is leaving it to the car owner to not charge at very cold pack temperatures. Perhaps the programming is better when the car is provisioned with a battery warmer. I do understand why charging is allowed -- the alternative would be forced stranding. The knuckle-headed result here was to not have a battery warming period, either because of bad programming or because some packs do not have a battery warmer. If the latter, that is some nasty cost cutting on Nissan's part. At a minimum, Nissan should make it very clear in the User manual what pack temperatures are too low for charging without pack damage.
Click to expand...

I wonder if a Nissan engineer or programmer made the same mistake I did because the numbers seem to line up with using the wrong value to calculate the 0.02C amount. :lol:
 
The knuckle-headed result here was to not have a battery warming period, either because of bad programming or because some packs do not have a battery warmer.
Click to expand...

No, because the Leaf warmer uses a small current (~300 watts) preemptively, to prevent the battery from getting too cold, rather than applying a large current on an as-needed basis. The knucklehead move was to not equip the 6X KWH packs sold in colder climates with warmers.
 

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