130 mile mountain trip turned into 180 mile success!

[alozzy]

Yes, I've used that before too but it's tedious to have to figure it out end to end for a given route. I was just curious if anyone had found the EV trip planner to be accurate, as it calculates everything for you, end to end. Thanks for the explanation though, very informative.

 

[WetEV]

Yes, I've used that before too but it's tedious to have to figure it out end to end for a given route. I was just curious if anyone had found the EV trip planner to be accurate, as it calculates everything for you, end to end. Thanks for the explanation though, very informative.

I do think that EVtripplanner's distance, up and down totals are roughly correct. This is why I use the tool.

I don't think that EVtripplanner's speed estimates are correct.

I don't think that EVtripplanner's energy use calculations are correct.

I don't think that EVtripplanner's charge times are correct.

I write out a csv file, replace the speed estimates with my own speed estimates, and compute my own energy use, and compute my own charging time estimates.

I've seen examples of others doing the same. I'll try to dig one up, or perhaps post one of my own.

 

[IssacZachary]

By the way, Google maps has an elevation feature buried in the bicycle route option.

Thanks for figuring a lot of that out! I'm still going to try to figure it all out on paper and see wat it all looks like. Eventually I'd like to make a spreadsheet that I can plug in any way of numbers and have it all calculate out automatically.

I do believe EV Trip Planner is not accurate. And I feel the same about the Nissan Connect EV trip planner.

As far as trips go, I just did a test trip. I went from here to CB mountain. It was 67.2 miles round trip and I'm at 18% after the trip. Interestingly I used 60% to make it to the top (was at 40%), regained 3% coming down into CB and ended up here in Gunnison with 18% left. I went the speed limit the whole way. Average temp was 42*F.

I need to set aside some time to play with the numbers and see how this trip compares and how future trips will compare.

 

[IssacZachary]

The EV trip planner is really easy to use:

https://www.evtripplanner.com/planner

I'm wondering, though, if that site gives accurate results or not.

Sorry for hijacking the thread a bit, but it's somewhat relevant - or would have been if the trip had actually been made

I would say that's perfectly relevant.

Thanks!

 

[SageBrush]

As far as trips go, I just did a test trip. I went from here to CB mountain. It was 67.2 miles round trip and I'm at 18% after the trip. Interestingly I used 60% to make it to the top (was at 40%), regained 3% coming down into CB and ended up here in Gunnison with 18% left. I went the speed limit the whole way. Average temp was 42*F.

We can compare your measured result to the calc
Google Maps says that it is 27 miles to CB and 2200 feet higher than Gunnison. No intervening climbs complicate this trip so we only have to look at the destination.

Climb kWh = 0.5*2200/300 = 3.66 kWh
Distance kWh = ~ 30/4.5 = 6.66
Total: 10.3 kWh from Gunnison to CB

R/T:
Climb kWh = 0
Distance kWh = 64/4.5 = 14.22 kWh

We can somewhat check our assumptions about flat terrain consumption and full battery capacity by estimating full battery from the R/T: 14.22/0.82 = 17.34 kWh.

If correct, then the trip to CB should have consumded 10.3/17.34 = 59.4% of the SoC. Nice match to your meter. These results also show that potential energy (the result of altitude changes) is well conserved so long as the usual caveats apply regarding wind and brakes use.

P.s., since you seem keen to push your LEAF limits in the mountains I highly recommend you grab leafSpy and confirm the remaining full capacity.

 

[IssacZachary]

But the net climb into Gunnison from Montrose is about 1900 feet and 65 miles away. This requires
65/4.5 = 14.5 kWh
0.5*1900/300 =3.16 kWh
That 18 kWh total is just too close

Ok. I was wondering if you counted "net" or if you counted ascent and descent as separate. It seems that the Nissan Leaf charts I've seen say to take away twice as much energy from going up than what they say to add back on going back down hill.

With that in mind, this is what I have so far.

The first leg out of Gunnison is 32 miles, with a net ascent of 847ft, which would be 8.52kWh, or if I take 2277ft ascent and 1430 descent and only add back half of 0.5kWh per 300ft for the descent I get 9.71kWh.

The second leg out of Gunnison is 4 miles, with a net ascent of 187ft, which would be 1.2kWh (9.72kWh total), or if I take 495ft ascent and 308ft descent and only add back half for the descent I get 1.46kWh (11.17kWh total).

The third leg out of Gunnison is 14 miles, with a net ascent of -761ft, which would be 1.84kWh (11.57kWh total), or if I take 1093ft ascent and 1854ft descent and only add back half for the descent I get 3.39kWh (14.56kWh total).

The last leg pulling into Montrose is 14.4 miles, with a net ascent of -2139ft, which would be -0.356kWh (11.2kWh total), or if I take 3ft ascent and 2142ft descent and only add back half for the descent I get 1.42kWh (15.98kWh total).

Let me put it this way. If the energy I gain back from descents is the same as the ascents, I should have used 11.2kWh to go from Gunnison to Montrose. But if from having to regen at times I only get back half of that energy on descents, then I'd use 16kWh from Gunnison to Montrose. And If I lose all my energy on descents, then I'd use 20.8kWh to get into Montrose.

On the way back to Gunnison is a whole different story.
In a best case scenario I'd have used 11.7kWh to make it to the last peak and 17.4kWh to make it to Gunnison. But if I lose half the energy on descents, I'd have used 20.6kWh to get into Gunnison. And if I lost all my energy on descents, it would be 24kWh to make it into Gunnison.

However, that's at 4.5 miles per kWh. If I went 40mph or less, according to the Nissan Leaf range charts I'd go at about 5.9miles per kWh. Now if I did that, on the way back to Gunnison I'd use 7.8kWh in a netted "best case scenario," 12.6kWh if I take away half the energy for descents and 17.4kWh if I didn't gain anything on descents.

 

[IssacZachary]

We can compare your measured result to the calc
Google Maps says that it is 27 miles to CB and 2200 feet higher than Gunnison. No intervening climbs complicate this trip so we only have to look at the destination.

Climb kWh = 0.5*2200/300 = 3.66 kWh
Distance kWh = ~ 30/4.5 = 6.66
Total: 10.3 kWh from Gunnison to CB

R/T:
Climb kWh = 0
Distance kWh = 64/4.5 = 14.22 kWh

We can somewhat check our assumptions about flat terrain consumption and full battery capacity by estimating full battery from the R/T: 14.22/0.82 = 17.34 kWh.

If correct, then the trip to CB should have consumded 10.3/17.34 = 59.4% of the SoC. Nice match to your meter. These results also show that potential energy (the result of altitude changes) is well conserved so long as the usual caveats apply regarding wind and brakes use.

P.s., since you seem keen to push your LEAF limits in the mountains I highly recommend you grab leafSpy and confirm the remaining full capacity.

Awesome! Thank you Sagebrush! I need to get LeafSpy and an Apple or Android device, unless my old LG G-Slate (Android 3.0 Honeycomb) can work with LeafSpy.

 

[SageBrush]

However, that's at 4.5 miles per kWh. If I went 40mph or less, according to the Nissan Leaf range charts I'd go at about 5.9miles per kWh.

I would not count on that lofty figure.

 

[IssacZachary]

However, that's at 4.5 miles per kWh. If I went 40mph or less, according to the Nissan Leaf range charts I'd go at about 5.9miles per kWh.

I would not count on that lofty figure.

You don't think that if I went 35mph I'd go 6.3miles per kWh on flat ground?

Thanks for the advice!

Anyhow, this does make me look at things also from another perspective. There's an RV park near Cimarron right along the highway. Doing some calculations, if I could get a charge there, I'd only need to use 7.7kWh net, or 11.3kWh by my "half back on descent" estimate to get back to Gunnison from there. :idea:

 

[LeftieBiker]

There's an RV park near Cimarron right along the highway. Doing some calculations, if I could get a charge there, I'd only need to use 7.7kWh net, or 11.3kWh by my "half back on descent" estimate to get back to Gunnison from there.

Unless you can plug in to the 50 amp 240 volt outlets there, you should invest in a TT30 to NEMA 15 adapter, which would let you use the 30 amp 120 volt trailer power outlets. Many RV parks also have regular household-type GFCI 120 volt outlets, but some don't.

 

[SageBrush]

Awesome! Thank you Sagebrush! I need to get LeafSpy and an Apple or Android device, unless my old LG G-Slate (Android 3.0 Honeycomb) can work with LeafSpy.

Here
http://www.electricvehiclewiki.com/Leaf_Spy_Pro#Android_Phone_or_Tablet_.28possibly_iPhones.29
is a list of compatible phones, although the author may have something more uptodate. He also has a long running thread in this forum

I have an Android phone I am reasonably sure will run the software you are welcome to for $2-3 to cover shipping. Let me know if you are interested and I'll check that it works with my car.

 

[SageBrush]

There's an RV park near Cimarron right along the highway. Doing some calculations, if I could get a charge there, I'd only need to use 7.7kWh net, or 11.3kWh by my "half back on descent" estimate to get back to Gunnison from there. /quote]

Unless you can plug in to the 50 amp 240 volt outlets there, you should invest in a TT30 to NEMA 15 adapter, which would let you use the 30 amp 120 volt trailer power outlets. Many RV parks also have regular household-type GFCI 120 volt outlets, but some don't.

Speaking of..
I plan to either trade for or buy an EVSEupgrade.com upgraded NIssan mobile EVSE that came with my car exactly so I can take advantage of 6.6 kW L2 RV charging in a pinch. A couple of common adapters will also be needed. This approach is not going to make trips cheap but it is a whole lot better than getting stuck.

 

[LeftieBiker]

I plan to either trade for or buy an EVSEUpgrade.com upgraded NIssan mobile EVSE that came with my car exactly so I can take advantage of 6.6 kW L2 RV charging in a pinch. A couple of common adapters will also be needed.

You won't get the full 6.6kw charging with an EVSE Upgrade unit, because they are limited to 16 amps now, IIRC. Some of the older ones go to 20, but none to 27A.

 

[SageBrush]

I plan to either trade for or buy an EVSEUpgrade.com upgraded NIssan mobile EVSE that came with my car exactly so I can take advantage of 6.6 kW L2 RV charging in a pinch. A couple of common adapters will also be needed.

You won't get the full 6.6kw charging with an EVSE Upgrade unit, because they are limited to 16 amps now, IIRC. Some of the older ones go to 20, but none to 27A.

Right. Closer to 4.8 kW for the 2013/2014 model, although I don't know if this maximum draw is from the wall or what can be sent from the EVSE to the battery. For my purposes I just want a solution that will get me on my way in about an hour in those cases where I calculated wrong or consumption was higher than anticipated.

 

[alozzy]

I just bought a Zencar 32A portable EVSE (thanks jjeff) that's only a little larger than the stock one. It comes with a 14-50 plug, which is pretty standard at RV parks and will allow full charging rate.

I made up a TT30P to 14-50R adapter cable for RV park charging at 120V @ 30A, and also have a TT30R to 5-15P adapter so I can charge at 120V @ 12A too.

Cost was $400 CA, or $300 US. So far, I'm really happy with it. It's direct shipped from China, which may not appeal to everyone but there aren't that many options for a portable, full capacity charging EVSE, especially at that price point.

 

[jjeff]

I plan to either trade for or buy an EVSEUpgrade.com upgraded NIssan mobile EVSE that came with my car exactly so I can take advantage of 6.6 kW L2 RV charging in a pinch. A couple of common adapters will also be needed.

You won't get the full 6.6kw charging with an EVSE Upgrade unit, because they are limited to 16 amps now, IIRC. Some of the older ones go to 20, but none to 27A.

Right. Closer to 4.8 kW for the 2013/2014 model, although I don't know if this maximum draw is from the wall or what can be sent from the EVSE to the battery. For my purposes I just want a solution that will get me on my way in about an hour in those cases where I calculated wrong or consumption was higher than anticipated.

Yes 16a max with a '15 and newer Leaf EVSE upgrade and 20a max with older Leaf OEM EVSEs. While 20a is nice, I really appreciate 27.5a with my similar sized Zencar EVSE and I ordered mine with a longer 8m J1772 cord and longer 2' L6-30 input cable which has been really handy on a couple of occasions when I couldn't park near the plug.
With my Zencar EVSE I get ~ 30%/hr recharge speed on my 24kw Leaf with the 6.6kwh charger, the same car gains about 20%/hr with a upgraded '13 EVSEupgrade EVSE set to maximum. Believe me, when your waiting for the charge the extra 10%(or 7.5a) is really nice

 

[SageBrush]

While 20a is nice, I really appreciate 27.5a with my similar sized Zencar EVSE and I ordered mine with a longer 8m J1772 cord and longer 2' L6-30 input cable which has been really handy on a couple of occasions when I couldn't park near the plug

Good idea to keep in mind -- thanks. The skeptic in me asks how reliable and long-lived a mobile EVSE will be that is rated higher than competitors, but for occasional/emergency use it could be fine.

I'm wondering -- have there been any reports of any J1772 EVSEs that work in the intended car but not in another J1772 equipped car ? Just how standard is the standard across manufacturers of both the EVSEs and cars ?

 

[jjeff]

J1772 is supposed to be the standard so any EVSE using the standard should meet the standard and therefor work. That said, early on(before I got my EV) I understand people were having problems with early GE EVSEs(and GE is a major brand) where they wouldn't work, maybe just with the timer on a Leaf?? but that was corrected by an update.
I use my portable EVSEs almost every day and expect them to last, otherwise I wouldn't bother. Of course I suppose you could have a lightning strike or similar which could blow it but my main worry is heat degradation and on that none of my EVSEs get hot, most run cool even at full amps, my Ebusbar does get "warm" after several hours but I'm not so worried about warm, hot wouldn't be good.
Also note while I use my portables outsite, I try to not have lots of rain falling directly on them or have them sit in a puddle but I have had them hooked to the car, then had it rain for sometimes hours at a time and all was fine when I went to unplug them. They are made to waterproof specifications but personally I'm not one that likes to test things like that, if it happens it happens, I'm just not going to purposely test something. My Ebusbar sits outside under a soffit 95% of the time plugged in the wall. If the rain or snow really blows it gets covered but the majority of the precipitation doesn't fall directly on the EVSE.

 

[GlennD]

Every car that I have tested met the J1772 spec except for the Cuda. The unit that I tested drew 30A at 240V even the EVSE said 16A. In short all except that Cuda ware J1772 compliant. since so few Cuda's were sold I do not want to lump them together.

 

[IssacZachary]

I did it! I'm so proud of myself! I really did it! I went clear to Delta and back in one day! And the amazing thing is I didn't use as much battery as I had initially calculated! I arrived in Montrose with 34% left (65 miles)! Then I made it to Delta (22.5 miles) with only using another 18%. However, i had already charged to 100% in Montrose since there's no place to charge in Delta. I made it back to Montrose with 40%, charged to 100%, and then climbed back to Gunnison and got here with 21% still left! Woohoo! 180 miles in one day!