17A L1 charging!!

[lincomatic]

So the limit for L1 charging is 1440W, not 12A.

So perhaps the thread title should be changed to 17A charging at 85V?

Cheers, Wayne

Haha, *maybe*, except that I'm just guessing, since I didn't measure the voltage at the time.
And something strange was going on with the car, because I had my EVSE set to 14A max, so
the car was violating that (or my EVSE was somehow malfunctioning). I guess I'll have to wait until
it happens again.

 

[tps]

It would be interesting to measure the current which Phil's modified EVSE (EVSEUpgrade) pulls when L1 charging with low line voltage, since his pilot signal says "16 A"...

 

[lincomatic]

It would be interesting to measure the current which Phil's modified EVSE (EVSEUpgrade) pulls when L1 charging with low line voltage, since his pilot signal says "16 A"...

Is his pilot 16A for both 120 & 220V, or does he switch it based on voltage? To do the test, his has to send 16A even w/ 120V.

 

[GeekEV]

Is his pilot 16A for both 120 & 220V, or does he switch it based on voltage? To do the test, his has to send 16A even w/ 120V.

Yes, it advertises 16A even in 120V mode because there's no way to change it based on voltage without rewriting the firmware in it. Poking a few bytes in memory and changing them from 12 to 16 is one thing, rewriting the firmware is something else completely. He opted for the simpler (and less error prone) method on the knowledge that the LEAF would never draw more than 12A in 120V mode anyway.

But I agree with the various suspicions here, it seems like the LEAF is focusing on maintaining 1440W rather than a hard 12A. Since your line voltage is low, it makes sense it would up the amperage to compensate.

 

[lincomatic]

Is his pilot 16A for both 120 & 220V, or does he switch it based on voltage? To do the test, his has to send 16A even w/ 120V.

Yes, it advertises 16A even in 120V mode because there's no way to change it based on voltage without rewriting the firmware in it. Poking a few bytes in memory and changing them from 12 to 16 is one thing, rewriting the firmware is something else completely. He opted for the simpler (and less error prone) method on the knowledge that the LEAF would never draw more than 12A in 120V mode anyway.

But I agree with the various suspicions here, it seems like the LEAF is focusing on maintaining 1440W rather than a hard 12A. Since your line voltage is low, it makes sense it would up the amperage to compensate.

If that's the way Phil did it, then it's dangerous in brown out conditions, because the car may draw more current than the EVSE can handle.

 

[davewill]

If that's the way Phil did it, then it's dangerous in brown out conditions, because the car may draw more current than the EVSE can handle.

It should be able to handle it. The EVSE handles 240v 16a just fine, and he torture tested it up much higher. 108v 16a shouldn't be any worse.

 

[lincomatic]

If that's the way Phil did it, then it's dangerous in brown out conditions, because the car may draw more current than the EVSE can handle.

It should be able to handle it. The EVSE handles 240v 16a just fine, and he torture tested it up much higher. 108v 16a shouldn't be any worse.

D'oh. Sorry, not thinking straight today. So I hope someone can test w/ Phil's upgrade and see how much current is drawn when the voltage is low.

 

[TEG]

The charger in the Leaf appears to pull 1440watts when near ~120V regardless.
The 16A pilot signal doesn't appear to change that.

So you might get 14A at 100V, but I don't think it is going to ever get much above 16A.
At some point the voltage could get so low that it just shuts down completely.

 

[planet4ever]

If that's the way Phil did it, then it's dangerous in brown out conditions, because the car may draw more current than the EVSE can handle.

It should be able to handle it. The EVSE handles 240v 16a just fine, and he torture tested it up much higher. 108v 16a shouldn't be any worse.

Sure, the EVSE can handle it, but what about the house wiring? If you plug into a 15 amp circuit wired with 14 gauge Romex and try to pull 16 amps for hours on end, something's going to give. Hopefully the circuit breaker will trip before the cable gets too hot, but it sure sounds like you will have heat inside your walls.

Actually, I have been leery of Phil's latest upgrade for that very reason, and am keeping mine at the original 12 amp level, but lincomatic's findings are worrisome. I know Phil tested with over-voltages. I wonder if he also tested with under-voltages. If the car's charger pulls 16A when the EVSE says 12A, that's a defect in the charger that Nissan needs to address. But if it pulls 16A at 90v when the EVSE says 16A, that's an EVSE defect unless the EVSE has a NEMA 5-20 plug.

Ray

 

[TEG]

Hopefully Phil chimes in. Lots of speculation going on.
It sounds like the stock EVSE and stock charger will increase amps at lower voltages with or without the mod.
Why are we speculating that the 16A pilot signal will make the 'problem' worse? (If it is even a problem at all.)

 

[lincomatic]

Hopefully Phil chimes in. Lots of speculation going on.
It sounds like the stock EVSE and stock charger will increase amps at lower voltages with or without the mod.
Why are we speculating that the 16A pilot signal will make the 'problem' worse? (If it is even a problem at all.)

I think Phil has established that the Nissan EVSE can handle the extra current. The problem lies in the question of whether
or not the 120V circuit that it's connected to can handle the extra current without causing a fire hazard. Without the mod,
it limits the current to a safer 12A @ 120V (assuming that the car obeys the current limit).

 

[davewill]

Hopefully Phil chimes in. Lots of speculation going on.
It sounds like the stock EVSE and stock charger will increase amps at lower voltages with or without the mod.
Why are we speculating that the 16A pilot signal will make the 'problem' worse? (If it is even a problem at all.)

I think Phil has established that the Nissan EVSE can handle the extra current. The problem lies in the question of whether or not the 120V circuit that it's connected to can handle the extra current without causing a fire hazard. Without the mod, it limits the current to a safer 12A @ 120V (assuming that the car obeys the current limit).

Doesn't the wattage remain the same? The wiring isn't going to be able to tell the difference, is it? However, all the appliances and computer power supplies are going to be working out of spec. I'd be much more worried about THAT than the EVSE.

 

[tps]

if it pulls 16A at 90v when the EVSE says 16A, that's an EVSE defect unless the EVSE has a NEMA 5-20 plug.

The modified EVSE has a L6-20P (250V 20A), you have to make a plug adapter to fit any other socket. Many of us have made adapters with 5-15P plugs, which will fit into 5-20R recepticles. Mainly this is useful when using premade extension cords. While it is possible to get 12 AWG extensions with 5-20P and 5-20R, they have to be special ordered from a place like Stayonline.com; one can get 12 AWG extensions with 5-15P and 5-15R locally, I picked up a 25 foot one the other day at Walmart.

Phil's use of a L6-20P on his modified EVSE is not a defect; it is correct, even for an average person who may never have seen an L6-20P before, but could use it with the same safety as any other electrical plug if an electrician installed an L6-20R recepticle, which is what Phil's web page recommends. The plug adapters are not for the average person, but for someone with a more than average understanding of electrical power.

I don't see an EVSE with a wide input voltage range as being any more dangerous than many computers and monitors which often accept 90V - 265V through an IEC 60320 C14 inlet. Although normally (in the US) a 5-15P to IEC C13 power cord is used, one could buy a L6-20P to IEC C13 and many such devices would be happy to operate from 240V. The IEC C20 might have been an appropriate choice for the modified EVSE due to its higher current rating, but I like the locking aspect of the L6-20P better. Alternately, he could have chosen a connector from the IEC 60309 family. However, the L6-20 is readily available and can be had at Home Depot or Lowes while IEC 60309 connectors, as well as 60320 C19/C20 are hard to come by locally.

 

[lincomatic]

Doesn't the wattage remain the same? The wiring isn't going to be able to tell the difference, is it? However, all the appliances and computer power supplies are going to be working out of spec. I'd be much more worried about THAT than the EVSE.

No, the wiring cares only about current. That's why circuit breakers and fuses are rated in amps, not wattage.

 

[tps]

Doesn't the wattage remain the same? The wiring isn't going to be able to tell the difference, is it?

The wire does care about the wattage of the load; how much power is lost in the wiring as heat depends solely on current (and the wire gauge), which is why fuses and the pilot signal are done in terms of current. Given that the insulation of a wire is rated at 300V, as is normal SJ-type cable, the same amount of power is lost in the wire as heat if it is delivering 16A at 240V as when it is delivering 16A at 120V, although the 240V load absorbs twice as much power.

 

[planet4ever]

if it pulls 16A at 90v when the EVSE says 16A, that's an EVSE defect unless the EVSE has a NEMA 5-20 plug.

The modified EVSE has a L6-20P (250V 20A), you have to make a plug adapter to fit any other socket. Many of us have made adapters with 5-15P plugs, which will fit into 5-20R recepticles. Mainly this is useful when using premade extension cords. While it is possible to get 12 AWG extensions with 5-20P and 5-20R, they have to be special ordered from a place like Stayonline.com; one can get 12 AWG extensions with 5-15P and 5-15R locally, I picked up a 25 foot one the other day at Walmart.

Phil's use of a L6-20P on his modified EVSE is not a defect; it is correct, even for an average person who may never have seen an L6-20P before, but could use it with the same safety as any other electrical plug if an electrician installed an L6-20R recepticle, which is what Phil's web page recommends. The plug adapters are not for the average person, but for someone with a more than average understanding of electrical power.

Perhaps I should have worded my statement more carefully. It was intended to be a generic statement about any EVSE which uses a 16A pilot when passing nominally 120v current. I'm well aware of what plug Phil's modified EVSE has, since I use mine nearly every day, plugged directly into a 240v L6-20R mounted on the wall. Used that way there certainly is no defect, but it is not passing 120v, either. Although one could wire an L6-20R directly to a 120v circuit, I believe that would be a clear code violation.

So, yes, it does come down to the adapters. When I wrote the above statement I was thinking of either an EVSE for 120v only or one like Phil's but with the addition of a 120v adapter. I still contend that the statement is correct if the adapter is treated as part of the EVSE. Anyone using Phil's 16A upgrade really should be using a 5-20P adapter if they are going to connect it to a 120v circuit. I know, that's not practical for a couple of reasons. Which is precisely why I would suggest the 16A upgrade should be used only for 240v circuits, which are, of course, the only ones where it was supposed to have an advantage.

Personally, I'm happy with my 12A upgrade, which charges overnight at 240v in my off-peak window, and can be used with a 5-15P adapter with no concern that the EVSE+adapter violate code (other than cable length issues).

Ray

 

[lincomatic]

BTW, I want to make it clear that I wasn't trying to criticize Phil in any way.

I just wanted to point out that if the EVSE is programmed to send a 16A pilot signal when connected to 120V that it is indeed possible for the Leaf to draw > 12A when the voltage is lower than 120V. So anyone w/ the 16A mod should be careful when using it for L1 charging.

 

[tps]

So, yes, it does come down to the adapters.

Exactly correct. ANY of these NEMA adapters we're making, the 5-15P to L6-20R, or a 5-20P to L6-20R, defeat what the NEMA standards are trying to accomplish. That is to make plugs which will not fit into a socket with a different voltage or current rating. (With of course, the exception that a 5-15P fits a 5-20R and a 6-15P fits a 6-20R.) This is why places such as StayOnline will not custom build these adapters.

So far as I know, the only "correct" connector for a wide-voltage device such as the modified EVSE is the IEC 60320 C20 inlet. StayOnline does provide both 5-20P to C19 and L6-20P to C19 (which plug into C20 inlets). The disadvantages with the C20 are:
1. It is not locking.
2. It is not available in Lowes or Home Depot, it has to be ordered from a place such as StayOnline.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

echoing Planet4ever here. after 5500+ miles of charging solely with 120, the 240 volt EVSE mod even at 12 amps is a dream. even my 80 mile trips recharge quickly. my "completed charging" texts are coming in at 1-3 am so fully charged with plenty of time to spare.

funny on the adapter discussion. my house came with the 5-20 socket. it was MUCH cheaper to buy an L6-20 plug ($4) to put in then it was to get an adapter. same with my metering option discussed on my blog

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/blog.php?u=291&b=92

as far as the bouncing current. not sure i would want this going to the car. i would look at getting your power straightened out and first thing is to get off that extension cord

 

[tps]

Personally, I'm happy with my 12A upgrade, which charges overnight at 240v in my off-peak window, and can be used with a 5-15P adapter with no concern that the EVSE+adapter violate code (other than cable length issues).

I suspect that beside the cable length issue, the adapter does violate code since it does allow different NEMA voltage ratings to be intermixed. I don't think electrical code views the adapter as part of the EVSE. Maybe the code allows one to skirt such issues with a big warning label, but maybe not. The IEC 60320 connectors are likely the only real code-compliant solution for wide-voltage-range supplies. (And of course the J1772 is code compliant for wide voltage, also.)