80% vs 100% charging and trickle charging questions

[rbon]

Hello. I am a new member from the SF Bay Area. Last week I took the plunge and signed a 36 month lease for a 2013 SL with all the bells and whistles. I have a whopping 85 miles on the car so far. Here is my question. I want to be able to charge to 100% to maximize range but am concerned that with each incremental charge I may be degrading the capacity of the battery to hold a charge. Since I really care only about 36 months as I will return the car then, what do you recommend--charge to 80% or charge to 100%. All things being equal, I would like to charge to 100% because I get more range that way. BTW, I am still using a trickle charger as I havent had my home charger installed yet. The users manual warns against regular use of the trickle charger (something the salesman never mentioned). Why would regular use of trickle charger be bad for the battery? What effect would it likely have on the battery if I were to do trickle charges for a month or so until I get my charger? many thanks for your thought. Rbon

 

[vrwl]

Hello. I am a new member from the SF Bay Area. Last week I took the plunge and signed a 36 month lease for a 2013 SL with all the bells and whistles. I have a whopping 85 miles on the car so far. Here is my question. I want to be able to charge to 100% to maximize range but am concerned that with each incremental charge I may be degrading the capacity of the battery to hold a charge. Since I really care only about 36 months as I will return the car then, what do you recommend--charge to 80% or charge to 100%. All things being equal, I would like to charge to 100% because I get more range that way. BTW, I am still using a trickle charger as I havent had my home charger installed yet. The users manual warns against regular use of the trickle charger (something the salesman never mentioned). Why would regular use of trickle charger be bad for the battery? What effect would it likely have on the battery if I were to do trickle charges for a month or so until I get my charger? many thanks for your thought. Rbon

I've been charging exclusively with the trickle charger for a year and half now with no ill effects. However, if you drain your battery down pretty empty before recharging, it'll take nearly a full 24 hours to recharge it again with the trickle, so if you have high mileage commutes, you might want to get your Level 2 installed to save charging time. One other thing, trickle charging is not nearly as efficient as Level 2 charging, so you "waste" more electrons with the slower charging method. Just some things to think about, but no, trickle charging doesn't damage anything.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Hello. I am a new member from the SF Bay Area. Last week I took the plunge and signed a 36 month lease for a 2013 SL with all the bells and whistles. I have a whopping 85 miles on the car so far. Here is my question. I want to be able to charge to 100% to maximize range but am concerned that with each incremental charge I may be degrading the capacity of the battery to hold a charge. Since I really care only about 36 months as I will return the car then, what do you recommend--charge to 80% or charge to 100%. All things being equal, I would like to charge to 100% because I get more range that way. BTW, I am still using a trickle charger as I havent had my home charger installed yet. The users manual warns against regular use of the trickle charger (something the salesman never mentioned). Why would regular use of trickle charger be bad for the battery? What effect would it likely have on the battery if I were to do trickle charges for a month or so until I get my charger? many thanks for your thought. Rbon

if driving needs are less than 30 miles a day; charge to 80%

if more than 30 miles, charge to 100%

if you want something to worry about;

dont park in full sun, use shade at EVERY opportunity.

do not charge it unless you plan to use it. Biggest mistake you can make is fully charging it overnight, then letting it sit in the Sun all day.

obtw; you can easily go 50 miles on an 80% charge but the reason i say 30 instead of 50 is that we are

1) really bad at estimating so unless you have been tracking and recording your driving, I am willing to bet you really dont know your daily driving needs and saying you drove 1500 miles last month only tells me your MONTHLY need which is valueless in this discussion.

2) as long as you are not parking after a day's drive with SOC over 80%, the more charge you start out with in the morning, the better. you will soon see this as applying to you.

3) we want to think we have our lives planned and rarely do things unexpected pop up and we do bunch transportation in this ideology but that is almost never the case here. We dont really plan for or compensate for a 10 mile side trip to pick up something for kid since they need it tomorrow and you are just now hearing about it despite them knowing about it for weeks. In an EV, we need to anticipate and allow for this. So if you park it with 50-60% of your battery left 9 days out of 10, it only takes that one day to make you glad you left with a "full" tank.

 

[smkettner]

For daily use the 100% trickle charge is fine. Trickle (L1) is good for 45 to 60 miles per day.

Avoid heat and avoid sitting unused for extended periods at 100% for battery longevity.
Especially avoid the combination.

 

[dgpcolorado]

...The users manual warns against regular use of the trickle charger (something the salesman never mentioned). Why would regular use of trickle charger be bad for the battery? What effect would it likely have on the battery if I were to do trickle charges for a month or so until I get my charger? many thanks for your thought. Rbon

Vicki already pointed out that charging at Level 1 (120 Volts) works fine if you don't need a long range most days. But as to why the manual discourages regular use of the "trickle charger", it is likely because it puts a significant load on house wiring. A typical 120 Volt house outlet isn't usually used at 12 Amps for many hours every day. Also, charging at 120 Volts is very slow so it might be inconvenient for many people and that would lead to a reduction in LEAF driver satisfaction.

If the wiring and outlets are in good condition, there should be no problem. If the wiring or connections to the outlet are substandard (or corroded) pulling that much current for an extended time might cause heating and could, in extreme cases, even lead to a fire.

So, Nissan would rather that you charge with a dedicated Level 2 EVSE ("charge station") that is freshly installed by an electrician. You would get much quicker charging and the chance of problems with substandard 120 Volt outlets is eliminated.

That said, if your house wiring is in good shape and your mileage needs per day are modest, charging at Level 1 with the "trickle charger" should work fine. To test the circuit, try charging for a half hour or so and then feel the plug and wall outlet. They should not be more than slightly warm. If they are hot discontinue use until you can have an electrician inspect the outlet and wiring.

FWIW.

 

[vrwl]

That said, if your house wiring is in good shape and your mileage needs per day are modest, charging at Level 1 with the "trickle charger" should work fine. To test the circuit, try charging for a half hour or so and then feel the plug and wall outlet. They should not be more than slightly warm. If they are hot discontinue use until you can have an electrician inspect the outlet and wiring.

FWIW.

Good point. Our house is fairly newish, so our wiring is still in good shape and I've encountered no issues with heat at the plug. And with only 8900 miles on my car after a year and a half, I don't have any issues with the amount of time it takes to charge up my car. So yeah, it all really depends on your individual circumstances.

 

[planet4ever]

I am a new member from the SF Bay Area.

Most parts of the Bay Area get their electricity from PG&E, and PG&E rates are very high. So you may want to think about efficiency. When charging at 120v, only about 75% of the electricity that you buy gets as far as the battery. When charging at 240v, more than 85% gets to the battery. That's not a major financial burden for a month or so, but you probably wouldn't want to shoulder it indefinitely.

There is also an efficiency argument for charging to 80% rather than 100%. Regenerative braking can help you "reuse" electricity, but you will get decreasing amounts of regen while your battery is above 80% charged. Watch the bubbles and circles in the arc at the top of the main part of the dash. Bubbles to the left of the base one that is always lit mean you are getting energy back through regen. But they can only light up if they are inside a double circle. Single circles at the left end of that arc indicate restrictions that the computer has placed on how much regen you are allowed to do, because of the state of the battery. Often, though not always, it is because the battery is nearly full.

BTW, I am still using a trickle charger as I havent had my home charger installed yet.

Just a friendly note: The charger is a piece of equipment under the hood of your car; part of that big block of stuff right in the middle. In fact it is that charger (and associated equipment) that is eating up the other 25% of the electricity you are currently feeding it. So you already have the only charger you are going to get. The "trickle charger" is really a "trickle charging cord", i.e. a cord that feeds electricity slowly to the car's charger. The "home charger" is really a "home charging station", i.e. a station where you can charge your car. They are both formally EVSEs, an unwieldy acronym that means "Electric Vehicle Supply Equipment", and are part of a carefully designed series of features making EV charging as safe as possible. EVSEs are mostly automatic safety switches designed to work thousands of times with high currents.

Are you already committed to a particular EVSE? If not, you can find tons of advice on this board as to your options.

Ray

 

[Graffi]

It took about 3 weeks after purchase to get our 240v AV EVSE installed, the free one from CEC. Too bad that program has ended. Saved us about $2,100.

During that time we would stop by the dealer daily to get the 80% DCQC, then use the 120v EVSE from the trunk in our garage to bring it back up to 80%. Most of the time we would skip the home charging. We have only used 100% two times, when we went on an extended trip. We have found that the 50 to 60 miles we can get at 80% still leaves us with about 20% left in the battery. Do not know the Gids yet, as I just ordered our LeafDD this weekend. It will be our late Christmas gift for the car, which we call Graffi (it is a 2013 SL, metalic slate).

Our daily commute is only 9.5 miles each way, but we have, from the beginning, averaged about 300 miles per week, so it has been nice since the 240v EVSE was installed in our garage. And cheap!!! It costs us $0.11/kwh (we only use about half of our monthly allotment of Baseline kwh's as we have a PV Solar system + I use a C-Pap machine to sleep which qualifies for increased baseline due to Medical Equipment). Since we are averating just over 4 mi/kwh, our fuel costs is about $8.25 per week, compared to 6 times that much with the ICE car sitting in the garage. We still use it when we need to use both cars. We rarely use the dealer any more, because the cost of the electricity at home is not worth the time spend at the dealer waiting for the charge. We just plug it in as soon as we get back home, up to 80%, then it is ready if we go out again for the evening. It usually takes only 30 to 45 minutes, very fast.

I recommend you find a dealer or paid EVSE close to your work or home, or close to your route, that you can use every day until you get your home unit installed. Keep a book to read or something else you can do while you wait, so you do not think the time is wasted. It was relaxing time for either of us when we were waiting for the charge.

Driving an EV will change your lifestyle choices. You find that you do not need to rush down the freeway as fast, you will begin to enjoy watching the kwh drain away, knowing that you new fuel cost is 0nly 20% or less than you were paying. You will also watch the mi/kwh gage to try to maximize your mileage. With the ICE I always followed the flow of traffic, sometimes in the lead, so I would move down the freeway at 80 to 85mph. Now I drive in the right lane and try to keep it 55 to 60 mph, only going faster if I really need to if I am running late, but only if I will not need a charge until I get home.

For those you not in an area like San Diego, almost all of our driving is on the freeways, with time measured from home to freeway ramp, from freeway exit to location going to. The freeway miles is almost always full speed, except for a couple of spots during the morning or evening commute, which I avoid if at all possible.

Good Luck, and Congrats on your new Leaf.

 

[MikeGraff]

I'm sure some folks will blast me for saying this, but one of the reasons why I went with a lease instead of buying was so I wouldn't have to worry about "babying" the battery. If you are definitely planning to return the car at the end of 36 months then I wouldn't stress out about it too much and go ahead and charge to 100% to maximize your range...

 

[leafitobeaver]

Hello,

My first question is about the charge timer, we have been using it for a couple years but I was wondering if the charger accommodates charge based on the end time that you assign. ie. If I ran it between 1am and 6am will it charge at a slower rate than if I require the same charge but specify it between 1am and 4am?

 

[smkettner]

^^ No it charges at max rate until setting is reached.

 

[planet4ever]

My first question is about the charge timer, we have been using it for a couple years but I was wondering if the charger accommodates charge based on the end time that you assign. ie. If I ran it between 1am and 6am will it charge at a slower rate than if I require the same charge but specify it between 1am and 4am?

As smkettner said, the length of time between start and end will not affect how fast the car charges. If you set both a start and end time it will start charging as fast as it can at the start time, and keep charging until either it reaches the end time or it is fully charged (or 80% charged if you specified that). Setting a short charging time can in theory be used to limit charging to something other than 80% or 100%, but that isn't usually practical unless you always get home with the same charge left in the battery.

You can also set a single start or end time. Setting a start time alone removes the time condition above, and the car continues charging until full/80%, or, of course, you unplug it. Setting an end time alone causes the car's computer to estimate how long it will take to charge, and dynamically pick a charging start time each day that will get the battery full/80% by the end time or earlier.

Ray

 

[leafitobeaver]

Thanks for that info. Looks like I will do the END timer thing and let it estimate. Has anyone retrofitted the 6.6kW charger in place of the 3.3kW in the 2012 model?

 

[davewill]

... Has anyone retrofitted the 6.6kW charger in place of the 3.3kW in the 2012 model?

No, the new chargers were changed from a standalone unit in the back of the car to a model integrated in a stack with the motor and inverter under the hood. The new chargers don't have an actual case or external connectors. What some people have done is integrate a third party charger under the hood to supplement the 3.3kW charger in the older cars. The saga of how that was done is here: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=12323" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[leafitobeaver]

...certainly looks like I have a project upcoming...
Might be the right opportunity to put my friends CNC back to use again.

 

[RonDawg]

Keep in mind that if most of your charging is done overnight, does it really matter if you can fully charge your Leaf in 5 hours vs. 8 with a fully depleted battery? The greatest benefit to the faster on board charger is with public L2 charging, as it could mean sitting at a public charging station for an hour, vs. 2 hours, in order to get to your destination.

Or, if you have a very limited time frame to take advantage of a low price tier (for example you need to leave for work at 5 AM but off-peak doesn't start until midnight).

Also, do you have a 240 volt, 30 amp EVSE already installed? Having a faster on board charger won't do you any good if your EVSE only can supply 16 amps (or worse, you're using the OEM 120 volt one).

 

[LeftieBiker]

I just solved a Mystery involving my charge timer, and L-1 charging at home. I've had trouble with these counter-intuitive charge timers in the past, but this time I was really stymied. I have two timers programmed, one for the four days I'm off, and one for the three days I work. On Friday, the first day of my 'week', I keep seeing the car charge to 100% four hours early, even though it's set to finish a few minutes before I leave. Only one timer was set at a time, the times were correct, and it was driving me Nuts. Then looking at the main dash display, I realized the problem, at last: the timer was set correctly, but *it was estimating the time required incorrectly*. I was at 25% when I got home this morning, and it will take 15 hours to get back to 100%, but the car was estimating 19 hours. That's what's doing it. The funny thing is it isn't equalizing for four hours, either - it's actually finished and shut off four hours before I leave. I'm trying it with a start time set as well, and we'll see what happens...