A better hybrid than the Chevy Volt?

[GeorgeParrott]

I now have just over 1200 miles on my Volt, and my LEAF is scheduled to arrive around Feb. 18-24 depending on which day I check my LEAF dashboard. I have not seen the ICE come on yet when there is still battery charge, even when I have exceeded 70 mph; I am not saying, from what I have read, that it might not happen, but it will be VERY unusual it seems to me. Even if it does, it provides only about 10% of the drive train torque, as I read the in depth engineering description.

I like the promising technology on both cars, but we could not easily function as a "two LEAF" household, as we need to commute from Sacramento to Daly City (just south of San Francisco proper), Cupertino, and sometimes Modesto for "family gatherings." It would hardly be practical to HAVE to stop to recharge to make those trips. We also get from Sacramento the 100 miles up to Lake Tahoe 2-3 times a year and often also get over to Reno (another 40-60 miles) so the LEAF would not work well for those trips.

Clearly the Volt can make those kinds of excursions with no delays, and we have just done a short "road trip" where we logged around 250 ICE miles on the Volt and averaged 40.0 mpg for that part of our traveling in addition to the 37 starting miles that were totally EV.

Now on the other hand, 95% of all our driving for work, shopping and evening fun is always less than 12 miles one way around the greater Sacramento metropolitan region, so either/both the LEAF and the Volt will function well in full EV mode. Had we had regular need for 50+ mile daily vehicle use, then the Prius would be a better choice, and we HAVE owned both a 2004 and 2006 Prius. We also still have, but will be selling next week, a 2007 Camry hybrid which made a good "road trip" car since it rides better (IMHO) than the Prius. However we now find the Volt has the ride more like our previous BMW and Audi and Passat AWD cars of the recent past, so it has the promise of meeting without any emissions 95% of ALL our regular driving and still being a decently economical ride for those longer trips.

And since our house has extensive solar panels with excess over our past needs production, charging both the Volt and LEAF will not even impact at all our annual electricity use bill (because it will still be ZERO).

There will, undoubtably, be better "hybrids" in the future than the Volt, but from someone who has recorded over 100,000 miles in the 2004-2009 series Prius model, I would testify that it WILL NOT be the Prius, not even the plug-in Prius which simply does not have enough range in EV mode. We leased both 2011 cars, since I project significant technology developments in the next 3 years, and we will simply assess in 36 months what our options are anew and make another set of "best options for what IS available then."

 

[LKK]

If you want to learn about the Volt powertrain you might want to review this series on YouTube. This is a presentation by GM discussing how the poertrain operates. Here is a link to part 2.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=343-NQKOvLg&feature=related

In battery mode the Volt is capable of operating throughout its entire performance envelope in battery power only. That means as long as there is juice in the battery it will go all the way up to its 100 mph maximum speed.

In regards to BYD, the data provided would indicate that it is better than the Volt, but I am going to wait to see more data before making any definitive conclusions.

 

[TRONZ]

It's so funny that people are still talking about this. It was already settled. Electric cars do NOT have gas tanks, combustion engines, spark plugs, oil changes, blah, blah, etc, etc. But most important of all Electric cars never ever EVER go to gas stations for a fill-up!

 

[evnow]

But most important of all Electric cars never ever EVER go to gas stations for a fill-up!

Unless, the said gas station has EV chargers

 

[SanDust]

It's so funny that people are still talking about this. It was already settled. Electric cars do NOT have gas tanks, combustion engines, spark plugs, oil changes, blah, blah, etc, etc. But most important of all Electric cars never ever EVER go to gas stations for a fill-up!

If you choose to think that a series hybrid is not an electric vehicle then have at it. Just don't expect the world to follow. The EPA tested the Volt using J1634, which is the testing procedure reserved for Battery Electric Vehicles. Unless you're saying the EPA inadvertently made a mistake and applied the wrong testing procedures I think you have the answer as to how the EPA characterizes serial hybrids.

Similarly, when lurking on the Aptera forum I never saw anyone question whether the Aptera 2h was an electric vehicle. There it was assumed that the 2h series hybrid was simply a more advanced electric vehicle which gave the same performance as the 2e with the added benefit of being able to go another few hundred miles on gas. People who wanted the 2h weren't disparaged by those ordering the 2e because their car had a gas tank. Apparently you feel those ordering a 2h never ordered an electric car, which those who ordered the 2e and the 2h would find quite surprising.

Unless the Leaf will remain geographically limited at some point it will have a tailpipe. If you want to sell an EV in cold climates you have to address the facts that cold weather degrades battery performance and that heating is a huge power drain. You can do this either by making an EREV version of the Leaf or by doing what Volvo is doing and adding a separate liquid fuel heating system. But in either case you're going to have a tailpipe. Whether you have a gas tank just depends on what liquid fuel you want to use.

 

[ENIAC]

If you choose to think that a series hybrid is not an electric vehicle then have at it. Just don't expect the world to follow.

Actually the state of California also sees it that way as well. In California actual electric vehicles are eligible for $5,000 rebates. However, in that the Volt is not an electric vehicle, it's not eligible. No one challenged the state of California on the Volt decision.

 

[ENIAC]

I think there is a much better hybrid than the Chevy Volt and it's the "Deep Orange" BMW hybrid developed at Clemson University. It's a true serial hybrid. I really like the performance of their genset compared to the Volt.

 

[TomT]

Actually, if I remember correctly, that had nothing to do with it being a plug-in hybrid per se, but was because GM did not choose to certify it at an evaoporative level necessary to qualify. I believe they plan to so certify it for 2012. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong on this.

Actually the state of California also sees it that way as well. In California actual electric vehicles are eligible for $5,000 rebates. However, in that the Volt is not an electric vehicle, it's not eligible. No one challenged the state of California on the Volt decision.

 

[AndyH]

It's so funny that people are still talking about this. It was already settled. Electric cars do NOT have gas tanks, combustion engines, spark plugs, oil changes, blah, blah, etc, etc. But most important of all Electric cars never ever EVER go to gas stations for a fill-up!

If you choose to think that a series hybrid is not an electric vehicle then have at it. Just don't expect the world to follow. The EPA tested the Volt using J1634, which is the testing procedure reserved for Battery Electric Vehicles. Unless you're saying the EPA inadvertently made a mistake and applied the wrong testing procedures I think you have the answer as to how the EPA characterizes serial hybrids.

Sorry, SanDust - you are in error.

Please recall that Smidge received certification information from the EPA for the Volt and the Leaf.(1) In the material received, the EPA stated clearly(2) that they used J1634 to evaluate the Leaf, while they used J1711 to evaluate the Volt.

J1634 "Electric Vehicle Energy Consumption and Range Test Procedure" is used for vehicles that are moved solely by energy stored in a battery, while J1711 "Recommended Practice for Measuring the Exhaust Emissions and Fuel Economy of HybridElectric Vehicles, Including Plug-in Hybrid Vehicles" is used for vehicles that use an internal combustion engine plus an electricity source (battery, fuel cell, etc.).

The hybrid nature of the Volt was confirmed by GM in their application for certification(3) where they stated middle left of page six that "Fuel Type: Hybrid".

If one is interested, they could also scan pages 2-15 of GM's application where they outline the range of pollutants and environmental contaminants the vehicle is confirmed to emit.

GM marketing aside, the Volt is not a pure 'series hybrid' or a pure 'parallel hybrid' as it is capable of both modes.

I too am a member of the A....a Forum and have taken part in discussions on the differences between battery electric vehicles and hybrid vehicles. I would suggest that the reason potential 2H purchasers didn't argue that their vehicles were electric is because they clearly understood - and desired - the hybrid nature of the 2H.

(1) http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=2433
(2) http://www.smidgeindustriesltd.com/leaf/EPA/EPA_test_procedure_for_EVs-PHEVs-1-13-2011.pdf
(3) http://www.smidgeindustriesltd.com/leaf/EPA/FOI-BGMXV01.4001.pdf

edit...typo...

 

[TRONZ]

I think GM's ads say it all very clearly; "Volt, it's more car than electric".

 

[planet4ever]

It's so funny that people are still talking about this. It was already settled. Electric cars do NOT have gas tanks, combustion engines, spark plugs, oil changes, blah, blah, etc, etc. But most important of all Electric cars never ever EVER go to gas stations for a fill-up!

That's like saying that Gasoline cars never ever EVER get plugged in.

The whole thing is a very silly distinction. If I had a Volt I would probably drive it on electric power about 90% of the time and gasoline about 10% of the time. Since I am getting a LEAF I expect to drive on electric power about 95% of the time and gasoline (in our other car) about 5% of the time.

I'm really having trouble seeing that one is electric and the other isn't.

 

[AndyH]

I think GM's ads say it all very clearly; "Volt, it's more car than electric".

Yeah Buddy - their Freudian Slip is showing. :lol:

 

[BlueSL]

While some in the Leaf community dismiss the BYD E6 as an illusion, if they have now successfully delivered a plug-in hybrid to this country, can the E6 be far behind? And wouldn't a 200 mile range with fast charging capability make our Leafs obsolete? Such a car would even make ICE cars obsolescent. Warren Buffet may be smarter than people think.

This is exactly why leasing the Leaf makes a ton of sense. How many people still have their first generation iPhone? If consumer demand is there for EVs, the improvements will be at warp speed, starting with 4 hour overnight charging for the Leaf in 2012.

 

[LKK]

I think GM's ads say it all very clearly; "Volt, it's more car than electric".

Yeah Buddy - their Freudian Slip is showing. :lol:

I take it you don't think much of the Volt. Is this your personal position, or that of CPS Energy?

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

i think the Volt is a great option but before i would pay all that, i would retrofit my Prius. i can do it for less money than the Volt.

even if i retrofitted my 2010 which cost more than most, it would cost about 12-14,000 to plug it in and i still qualify for the tax credit. so my out of pocket could potentially be 6-7,000 and since i dont owe any money on the Prius, that would be the way i would go and still might go that way anyway.

now, although the Volt would work for my commute it wont work for my SO and we still have the 4 seat issue as well.

 

[TomT]

FYI, the Saab EV:

http://www.engadget.com/2011/02/04/saab-chooses-uqm-motors-for-its-9-3-epower-ev-will-be-carving-a/

 

[TRONZ]

While it's easy to point out the huge flaw with the Volt (gasoline), I did not answer the question of the thread. If I were in the market for a Hybrid I would get a Prius over the Volt. The Prius is far less expensive (I would never recover the price premium of GMs "technology"), the Prius gets better mileage and has more seats/interior room. If the Volt had 100 mile electric only range (w. NO sneaky gas engine coupling) and could seat 5 I would get it over a Prius. But since the oil money investors in GM would never allow this engine specification, not really a worry for Toyota.

 

[Coffee_Slurry]

The Volt is far more fun to drive than the Prius.

That has to count for something.

 

[AndyH]

I take it you don't think much of the Volt. Is this your personal position, or that of CPS Energy?

Just out of curiosity, if I had a cartoon cat for an avatar, would you assume I work for Disney and hate dogs? That would be wrong, too. :roll:

 

[TomT]

Absolutely! The Prius is the most boring, soulless car I have ever driven. That eliminated it right out of the gate for me.

The Volt is far more fun to drive than the Prius.

That has to count for something.