Are you sorry you bought a Leaf?

[LEAFfan]

No reason to be like the RV driver who backs up 40 cars going up a hill because they don't want to pull over.

Number one, there is no comparison to that RV driver going under the limit and a driver going the speed limit in the HOV. The RV driver is impeding traffic which is illegal, but the HOV driver is legal at the speed limit. Number two, I'm glad I don't live in SoCA if there are that many moronic drivers exceeding the speed limit and endangering everyone around them. They're just a collision waiting to happen. Speed kills.

 

[BlueSL]

It's not that I "can't make it work". I could make the bus or a bicycle work if I had to, but I'd have to give up seeing my family. The question is how much a consumer has to rearrange their life around a car. It's things like this that will inhibit mass adoption of EVs. The current range on the Leaf is very marginal for a majority of consumers.

It seems that you will have no shortage of people telling you how to drive the car you paid for.

* * *

Just because it fits a majority of people who frequent this board, does not mean that it is a good fit for the average Joe or Jane Doe. Some people, like our friend here, find that the compromises necessary to do something that you (and perhaps even he) want(s) him to do are too dear. You need to let it (and him) go. You should be delighted that you both still have the economic and political freedoms to do this.

* * *

Edit: I decided to take a trip on the freeway this morning after commute hours. I plotted a 44 mile round trip, all freeway. My Leaf was charged to 83%. I did everything but get physically run over. I never exceeded 67 mph. N o Stau, Sig Alerts, nothing but smoove sailin.' No fan, nothing but the radio. I grew three trees. My current state of charge is 25% with an anticipated range of 32 miles. 58% to go 44 miles. If you think this type of performance is going to have people trading in their Priusususus en masse, you smokin' sumptin.

These are the exact points I made in the "Fanboys Attack" thread:

. . . The Leaf will not achieve anything like the market penetration it needs if its range is not increased. For instance, the SF Bay Area has a big chunk of water tossed into the middle of its geography. This makes San Jose about 40 miles from Oakland (all freeway) and San Francisco more like 45 miles from San Jose (all freeway). Santa Rosa is about 60 miles from San Francisco. Cars on those freeways move at a rapid pace. There are very few currently available charging stations (please do not say "go to a Nissan dealer" -- that is NOT convenient) and the current charge times are not viable for many businesspeople.

Stop attacking people who complain about the range of the car. Acknowledge what Tesla accepts as fact. Your battery should take you more than 80 miles at freeway speeds. Nissan should address this in v.2, just like the silly 50% L2 charging rate, and the bogus Nav updating process. The car will need to be better. It can be better. And better is what will allow the EV revolution to occur, not the group think displayed here.

 

[Anonymous]

No reason to be like the RV driver who backs up 40 cars going up a hill because they don't want to pull over.

Number one, there is no comparison to that RV driver going under the limit and a driver going the speed limit in the HOV. The RV driver is impeding traffic which is illegal, but the HOV driver is legal at the speed limit. Number two, I'm glad I don't live in SoCA if there are that many moronic drivers exceeding the speed limit and endangering everyone around them. They're just a collision waiting to happen. Speed kills.

<soapbox>
Implying that the HOV driver going the speed limit is entirely legal is not necessarily true. Most states (definitely Washington) there are laws that specify that you are to keep right except to pass. That means if you are in the far left lane but not passing anyone in the other lanes (on your right) then you are in violation of the law no matter what speed you are going.

Granted, those laws are usually not enforced, but it is still a law. I get really pissed at the people that think they can just sit in the left lane and don't have any consideration for people behind them. If you don't want to change lanes at all, then move the F over into the right-most lane and get out of the way of the rest of us.

By that same rational, if general traffic is slow, and so you move over into the far left lane (HOV or not, I don't care) and you ARE going faster than the people on your right, you're fine. Even if you're going 10 miles under the limit, and there's nobody in front of you, that's fine AS LONG AS you're still going faster than the people on your right. This is basically the situation talked about before on this thread where you don't want to be going a LOT faster than the people immediately on your right, because what happens if there's an idiot in that lane that all of a sudden pulls out in front of you?

When I'm behind someone going slower than what I want to go, I take all of this into consideration. Could the person in front of me move over to the lane on their right and still go the same speed they're currently going? If so, then I'm going to get pissed that they're slowing me down. If not, if they are actually going faster than the lane to their right, then I'll back off and let them go their own speed, even if it's slower than the limit or what I want to go.

If you're going to be adamant about the letter of the law for a speed limit, then fine, but pay attention to the other laws like "KEEP RIGHT EXCEPT TO PASS".
</soapbox>

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

many here will be relieved to know that i am rarely in the HOV lane because UNLIKE some areas, you must have occupants in the car NO MATTER what you are driving.

 

[derkraut]

I'm a little confused by some of the posts here----especially from LAX/SAN area drivers. I've been driving So Cal freeways for over 20yrs; and I've ALWAYS stayed at or slightly under the posted speed limit of 65mph (70 in some areas). At this speed, I drive mostly in the right hand lanes, unless passing trucks or other slower moving vehicles. I have never been "flipped off", yelled at, glared at, tail-gated, or shot. As a pedestrian, I find that California drivers are the most courteous in the nation regarding pedestrian right-of-way. I often use the HOV lanes in my Prius, and have had about the seme experiences there. :?

BTW: I've also never received a traffic ticket during this time.

 

[MrFish]

Sorry, just my 2 cents.
Basically, people aren't nice. George Carlin did a bit where when driving, I'm driving the right speed and anyone trying to go faster is an idiot and anyone going slower is a jerk. Doesn't matter what the speed limit is, I'm the only one going the right speed, except that jerk who is going too slow is busy calling me an idiot for trying to go too fast.

On most commutes driving an extra 10 mph faster (than the speed limit) saves 2.5-5 min, is it really worth it? set your alarm 10 min earlier and arrive relaxed.

 

[TonyWilliams]

My wife and I fight over who gets to drive the LEAF. We both really like it. The looser has to drive the BMW 335i convertable. :mrgreen:

We'll be fighting over the LEAF and the Infiniti G37 convertible. I guarantee I'll be the LEAF driver !

 

[Clippy]

Stop attacking people who complain about the range of the car. Acknowledge what Tesla accepts as fact. Your battery should take you more than 80 miles at freeway speeds. Nissan should address this in v.2, just like the silly 50% L2 charging rate, and the bogus Nav updating process. The car will need to be better. It can be better. And better is what will allow the EV revolution to occur, not the group think displayed here.

QFT.

There will always be nits to pick. But Nissan is either going to have to start telling people about this range thing or else. They're going to run out of EV Experts (and $5K CA rebate) real soon. It's not a "Your mileage will vary" thing. It's a you may get stuck at work, or worse if you're not careful, real careful. It's a lawsuit waiting to happen. The first Joe/Jane Doe that gets their door or something else ripped off due to being stuck on the freeway or somewhere else is gonna sue.

Will Nissan take care of the v 1.0 people when the "you'd better" improvements surface? Only time will tell. Or worse, will this thing fail and become a one-off and I'll have to spend eternity dealing with some of the rudenicks on this board forever for spare parts?

In my particular case, number 746 seems to be well screwed together, all present and correct.

And if you stay off the freeways, this is the perfect Old Man's car. Numb steering, a back up cam, an elevator music dispenser, easy ingress and egress and now that I'm charging at $0.07 per Kwh and eligible for the senior plate at Denny's I'm saving dough.

 

[LEAFfan]

If you're going to be adamant about the letter of the law for a speed limit, then fine, but pay attention to the other laws like "KEEP RIGHT EXCEPT TO PASS".

We don't have that law here, so I'm talking about ours. I have no idea what the laws are in other states. If I'm in the HOV it's because the other lanes are full or very slow. I'm not going to convenience a speeder if I'm going the limit. If traffic is flowing, I always drive in the right lane. And like most people have said, it's very dangerous to even be going the speed limit in the HOV when the 'fast' lane is creeping because some idiot is liable to pull into the HOV, most likely a single driver.

 

[ERG4ALL]

Here's what I see coming. The people who are not satisfied with the range/speed relationship may have that solved in the next few years. The following appeared in the May, 2011 issue of Car and Driver magazine. The article is entitled "State of Charge" and appeared on page 28. I'm sure most will know that A123 is a battery manufacturing company.

"A123 is aimed at optimizing the battery's power, energy, and life through the use of nanostructured materials that provide a high surface-area-to-volume ratio. Experimental solid-state (also known as thin-film) cells increase the surface area even more. The potential energy density of these micron-thin ribbons is four-to-five times that of today's Li-ion batteries. As with integrated-circuit manufacturing, the cell materials are deposited one thin layer at a time in a vacuum. The result is an incredibly light, dense cell."

What is nice is that the technologies used are proven. Their task, I'm sure, is to be able to replicate and lower the cost of the processes used. Photolithography has been used for decades and decades in chip manufacture and we have seen the cost of those tumble. It showed a pattern so clearly that Gordon Moore came up with his oft quoted "Moore's Law".

After the members of this forum are satisfied, it will open the door to another round of EV buyers that will complain about the 200 mile/charge restriction. Round after round will occur until the EV can go as far as an ICE and can quick charge in a reasonable amount of time.

 

[IBELEAF]

I used to get annoyed with drivers going at speed limit or less in HOV lane, until I realized that I've become "that" driver with Leaf, so I am learning to enjoy extending the range by driving in the far right lane.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

what it really boils down is whether we choose to follow the law. me driving 62 mph in HOV when the speed limit is 60 mph means i am violating the law. 60 MPH is the maximum speed limit, not the minimum.

now we all know it costs a ton of money to change laws so many are on the books that are antiquated and ridiculous.

but the laws governing speed impact safety, efficiency, energy use and in many cases road rage. if we all slowed down to the legal speed, we would eventually accept this as status quo.

that will never happen when even 1% are allowed to ignore the law. for everyone that does this, 10 will see them do it. this encourages others to follow.

we need to be following in the other direction. its as simple as that.

 

[walterbays]

I'm glad I don't live in SoCA if there are that many moronic drivers exceeding the speed limit and endangering everyone around them. They're just a collision waiting to happen. Speed kills.

Much of it is perception and attitude. Derkraut noted that he observes most drivers following the law. I have to admit when I see someone driving 65 in a 65 I just don't notice them, but when I see someone swerving from lane to lane at 90 I do notice (and get some distance away from a possible impending collision). When a driver yields to school children crossing the street it doesn't stand out as much as all the cars that roar through the red light slowing down only as much as necessary to negotiate the right turn.

I'll bet that if everyone would pay the extra minute or two of driving time to slow down to the speed limit then on average everyone including them would spend less time on the road. Because by far the biggest time waster on the road isn't the RV that slows you down to 60 for a couple of minutes. It's the wreck that slows everyone down to 5 for half an hour. And of course all those hundreds of ICE cars stopped in the traffic jam are burning gasoline all the while.

When someone tailgates you for driving "too slowly" in the HOV lane, much of how you react depends on your perception as well. Are they really trying to bully you into speeding, or do they just have no understanding of safe following distance and always tailgate everyone? If they do want you to go faster will they be happy if you pull over in the next HOV exit to let a line of fast cars pass; or if they can pull over there and pass? Or are they really preparing to ram your car or shoot you?

AAA reports that at least 1500 people per year are killed or seriously injured due to aggressive drivers, including both accidents and shootings. http://www.aaafoundation.org/resources/index.cfm?button=agdrtext#1D

If the state chose to stop speeding it would take either a massive increase in policing or a fundamental change in citizens' views of civil liberties to permit widespread deployment of automatic speed radar cameras. Both are extremely unlikely to happen. It may be more likely that gasoline at $8/gallon would slow people down, and I don't think that's likely soon. So we just have to deal with the world as it is, without necessarily buying into the peer pressure to drive 80, and without making ourselves a target for violence by forcing others to slow down, trying to take the policing burden onto ourselves.

 

[ERG4ALL]

One of the problems of ICE drivers speeding is that there is not as much mileage information in those cars as there is in the LEAF. We have several displays that give us second by second energy usage. The ICE drivers have maybe a "Miles to Empty" display. But that is obviously spread out over many many miles of experience and is not immediately related to the type of driving that is just occurring. What might help, but I doubt anyone would pay extra for it, would be if after filling up an ICE car, one could enter the price per gallon that they just paid. This is just like resetting the trip odometer. Then as they were speeding down the road a display would show their cost per mile driving at that speed. Or if one is too lazy to enter the price at least the car could display the ounces of gasoline per mile driving at that speed.

In 1974 the Federal Government imposed the 55 mph limit to increase mileage because of the oil embargo. I remember passing patrol cars at 59 mph, it seemed like an eternity to creep past them hoping they weren't too strict. Anyway it requires 93% more energy to travel at 70 mph rather than 55. This applies to any moving object, ICE or EV.

 

[Jimmydreams]

One of the problems of ICE drivers speeding is that there is not as much mileage information in those cars as there is in the LEAF. We have several displays that give us second by second energy usage. The ICE drivers have maybe a "Miles to Empty" display. But that is obviously spread out over many many miles of experience and is not immediately related to the type of driving that is just occurring. What might help, but I doubt anyone would pay extra for it, would be if after filling up an ICE car, one could enter the price per gallon that they just paid. This is just like resetting the trip odometer. Then as they were speeding down the road a display would show their cost per mile driving at that speed. Or if one is too lazy to enter the price at least the car could display the ounces of gasoline per mile driving at that speed.

In 1974 the Federal Government imposed the 55 mph limit to increase mileage because of the oil embargo. I remember passing patrol cars at 59 mph, it seemed like an eternity to creep past them hoping they weren't too strict. Anyway it requires 93% more energy to travel at 70 mph rather than 55. This applies to any moving object, ICE or EV.

The cost-per-mile would be an awesome gauge for people to have. Nothing gets people's attention like actual dollars and cents!!

 

[LEAFfan]

What might help, but I doubt anyone would pay extra for it, would be if after filling up an ICE car, one could enter the price per gallon that they just paid. This is just like resetting the trip odometer. Then as they were speeding down the road a display would show their cost per mile driving at that speed.

One of the many things an updated ScanGaugeII for ICE cars is exactly this. :mrgreen:

 

[sparky]

Getting quite off topic.
So, by my tally 26-29 responded to the question: Are you sorry you bought a Leaf with.... 'No"... (including iconoclastic googler)

Zero responded with "Yes".

The other 100 or so posts seem split between whether people drive too fast or too slow in NorCal, SoCal, WA. For that, put me down as an "all of the above" fanboy.

 

[AmarilloLeaf]

As far as the topic, put me down as a NO, I am incredibly thrilled to have my Leaf.

Every time I drive past a gas station, I am even more thrilled....

I'd ask, "Every time you stop at a gas station, are you sorry you bought a car that requires gasoline?"

I'd like to see that poll, at $4 a gallon.

 

[Googler]

Getting quite off topic.
So, by my tally 26-29 responded to the question: Are you sorry you bought a Leaf with.... 'No"... (including iconoclastic googler)

Part of my lack of regret is due to the fact that one sold on ebay for $40,100: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120714665752#description I believe that car would be ineligible for both the CA and federal incentives.

If the question had been phrased "would you recommend to your friends that they buy one?" my answer would have been "Not without a two hour conversation about the drawbacks".

 

[ericsf]

One of the problems of ICE drivers speeding is that there is not as much mileage information in those cars as there is in the LEAF.

In addition to that: With an ICE 80% of the energy is wasted, mainly in heat. So the impact of driving style is minimal to what people end up paying for. The incentive for conservation is not very high.

On the other hand with the LEAF most of the energy stored in the battery goes toward moving the car. So speeding takes a very visible toll on the range. With my ICE car I used to drive above the speed limit on the freeway 90% of the time. Since I am driving the LEAF, not only I am driving at or below the speed limit but I feel good about it because I can see what's the benefit!