Bay Area Walgreens / 350Green no longer free (ChargePoint)

[davewill]

... At 6.6 kW or maybe 9.9 or even 13.2 kW, this might be a viable alternative to L3. Is 32 Amps the limit on the current generation of public L2 chargers? If not, maybe what appears to be folly now might turn out to be savvy in the long term?

The limit on the current generation of J1772 is 80amps. Most of the installed base is limited to 30a. There are some converted Tesla sites that are more.

 

[KJD]

This might change with 6.6 kW (or more powerful) onboard chargers that take J1772?
How much can L2 provide?

The J1772 spec allows up to 80 amps. Clipper Creek builds an EVSE that will deliver high amps.

Most of the stations I have looked at have a spec of either 16 or 30 amps.

Most RV parks have 50 amp outlets. Nissan should let Leaf buyers have this option as well as 30 amps.

 

[KeiJidosha]

ActiveE will pull 7.5kW on a 240 volt Coulomb EVSE (like the one at Sports Chalet in Burbank). I’m paying 32¢/kWh from SCE to charge, so pricing does not seem unreasonable, exclusive of the convenience factor. At 3.7kW, pricing is less attractive, and you tie up the site for twice as long. Highlight the value (besides saving you time) of faster on-board L2 charging.

 

[GRA]

That being said, I've never understood how a viable business model could be constructed for pay L2 charging at a short-duration stop like a drug store. No one local will bother, and anyone from out of town needs longer charging.

+1

The only place were I can imagine that L2 makes sense would be hotels or motels or places where you stay overnight..or maybe at least 4h.
I never found any use for the gazillion L2 chargers in 10 mile radius around my home and if I want to go further, L3 would be needed.

This might change with 6.6 kW (or more powerful) onboard chargers that take J1772?
How much can L2 provide?
At 6.6 kW or maybe 9.9 or even 13.2 kW, this might be a viable alternative to L3. Is 32 Amps the limit on the current generation of public L2 chargers? If not, maybe what appears to be folly now might turn out to be savvy in the long term?

6.6 kW or higher power chargers will help considerably. Even 1 hour of charging will buy you 20-25 miles or so @6.6 kW, which can add enough range for considerable local driving. But I expect that the average customer time in a drugstore is 15 minutes or less, so I just don't see it working there except as a 'free' perk.

 

[TEG]

This might change with 6.6 kW (or more powerful) onboard chargers that take J1772?
How much can L2 provide?

The J1772 spec allows up to 80 amps. Clipper Creek builds an EVSE that will deliver high amps.

Most of the stations I have looked at have a spec of either 16 or 30 amps.

Most RV parks have 50 amp outlets. Nissan should let Leaf buyers have this option as well as 30 amps.

Most of the public J1772s are 30amps (6.6kW) so a 6.6kW charger upgrade is the "low hanging fruit".

As said, some 70A or 80A Tesla HPCs were converted to J1772, and so a limited number of vehicles in limited locations can take advantage of that. For instance, at the Salinas,CA Rabobank, you could get 70A if you had a higher powered charger in the car. I don't think it is worth Nissan's time, nor the cost for them to pursue those few locations. (Note a LEAF can still charge there, just at the slower rate.)

Regarding RV park "50 amp" outlets. Those are typically NEMA14-50 sockets, not J1772. How do you propose a 6.6kW LEAF will plug into them? NEMA14-50 isn't a consumer EV charging standard, so manufacturers could be a little shy of offering a way to use them. They would need a portable EVSE with NEMA14-50 on one side and J1772 on the other. It will be interesting to see what kind of portable EVSE Nissan provides with the 2013 LEAFs that have the 6.6kW charger option. If I were to guess, I would think they still only include a 120V 1.4kW portable "trickle charge interface", and expect you only use 6.6kW from permanently installed stations. Tesla offers something called a UMC ("Universal Mobile Connector") that serves this purpose, but it has a Tesla connector on the end, not J1772. Perhaps the Aftermarket will offer something like this. Basically you want something like the EVSEupgrade modified mobile EVSE, but with 30A capability, not just 16A.
The RV "50 amp" outlets aren't intended to provide continuous 50amps. NEC suggests that that continuous power draw should be no more than 80% of the rated capacity, so you really only should consider drawing 40A from them. (40A*240V=9.6kW). All Tesla Model S will include at least a 10kW onboard charger (optionally 20kW), and have UMC option with NEMA14-50 adapter, so they could take full advantage of campground charging. Does Nissan want the LEAF to be optimized for public 6.6kW J1772, or also for campground charging? Typically I would think campground charging is for overnight stay where even 3.3kW would be sufficient. Plus a 10kW charger costs a lot more than 6.6kW. I am glad that Nissan plans to offer 6.6kW, but I think it would be diminishing returns from a costs/benefits standpoint to go any higher.

 

[smkettner]

That 350green email response was lame. Same effect to charge $1 per hour and stop the charging after one hour if they are concered about overnight parking and full recharge for free.

Cannot charge by kWh is just a flat out lie.

 

[davewill]

Cannot charge by kWh is just a flat out lie.

Half truth. It's probably true for some regions they have equipment in, and they aren't interested in supporting multiple rate structures.

 

[jpa2825]

<snip>The only place were I can imagine that L2 makes sense would be hotels or motels or places where you stay overnight..or maybe at least 4h. <snip>

What about malls? Movie theaters? Restaurants? Bike trails? Sports stadia? Public parks? Park & Ride?

 

[GRA]

<snip>The only place were I can imagine that L2 makes sense would be hotels or motels or places where you stay overnight..or maybe at least 4h. <snip>

What about malls? Movie theaters? Restaurants? Bike trails? Sports stadia? Public parks? Park & Ride?

Malls and movie theaters, probably for free (at least for some period, maybe validated. These are local attractions in urban areas, typically no more than 10 miles or so to the next ones). Restaurants, probably only in regional (i.e. tourist) destinations - no one needs it for a local one. Recreational, sports, and cultural venues that draw a regional crowd for a few hours or more, yes, and park and ride/transit interconnections.

 

[ElectricVehicle]

As said, some 70A or 80A Tesla HPCs were converted to J1772, and so a limited number of vehicles in limited locations can take advantage of that. For instance, at the Salinas,CA Rabobank, you could get 70A if you had a higher powered charger in the car. I don't think it is worth Nissan's time, nor the cost for them to pursue those few locations. (Note a LEAF can still charge there, just at the slower rate.)

There's about a dozen high power J1772's currently in CA, they existed before we got DC Quick Chargers in CA, and they still outnumber the DCQC in CA! High power J1772 is MUCH, MUCH less expensive to install than a DC QC and could charge a LEAF in a little over an hour, if the LEAF had a 20 kW on board charger.... A touch over 2 hours if the LEAF had a 10 kW on board charger.

Regarding RV park "50 amp" outlets. Those are typically NEMA14-50 sockets, not J1772. How do you propose a 6.6kW LEAF will plug into them? NEMA14-50 isn't a consumer EV charging standard, so manufacturers could be a little shy of offering a way to use them. They would need a portable EVSE with NEMA14-50 on one side and J1772 on the other. It will be interesting to see what kind of portable EVSE Nissan provides with the 2013 LEAFs that have the 6.6kW charger option. If I were to guess, I would think they still only include a 120V 1.4kW portable "trickle charge interface", and expect you only use 6.6kW from permanently installed stations. Tesla offers something called a UMC ("Universal Mobile Connector") that serves this purpose, but it has a Tesla connector on the end, not J1772. Perhaps the Aftermarket will offer something like this. Basically you want something like the EVSEupgrade modified mobile EVSE, but with 30A capability, not just 16A.

SPX offers a compact supply side plug connected EVSE that will do 120/240V at 32A as a special order item at a probably for a little more than $1,000. https://homecharging.spx.com/portal/pdf/SS11-195D.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The RV "50 amp" outlets aren't intended to provide continuous 50amps. NEC suggests that that continuous power draw should be no more than 80% of the rated capacity, so you really only should consider drawing 40A from them. (40A*240V=9.6kW). All Tesla Model S will include at least a 10kW onboard charger (optionally 20kW), and have UMC option with NEMA14-50 adapter, so they could take full advantage of campground charging. Does Nissan want the LEAF to be optimized for public 6.6kW J1772, or also for campground charging? Typically I would think campground charging is for overnight stay where even 3.3kW would be sufficient. Plus a 10kW charger costs a lot more than 6.6kW. I am glad that Nissan plans to offer 6.6kW, but I think it would be diminishing returns from a costs/benefits standpoint to go any higher.

Some time ago I got curious at how long a load has to draw peak power to be considered a continuous load. I was actually a little suprised at the answer. I expected the time frame to be 30 minutes or an hour, but I found out...

Continous Load. A load where the maximum current is expected to continue for 3 hours or more
art 100 definitions, pg 70-20 top...

http://www.mikeholt.com/forum/Forum1/HTML/001032.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Wow! 3 hours! So if you're just plugging in for two hours or a touch under 3 you can use the full rated current of circuit! A 10 kW on board charger on the LEAF can use the full circuit capacity and not be considered a continuous load because at 10 kW, the 21 usable kW in the current LEAF battery will be fully charged in a touch over 2 hours and well under 3 hours!

A 10 kW charger, especially as an incremental cost from a 6.6 kW charger is not that expensive. Look at the Tesla Model S for a cost comparison - the twin charger option to add a second 10 kW charger to the existing 10 kW charger is only $1500 which translates to $0.15/watt. So the additional cost for a factory installed 10kW charger vs. a 6.6 kW charger in the 2013 LEAF is ( 10kW - 6.6 kW = 3.3 kW ; 3.3 kW * $0.15/watt = ) $500 !

Maybe they wouldn't offer it standard, but I'd pay $500 as an option to take the LEAF from 6.6 kW to 10 kW. If they offered 13.3 kW for $1,000 , I'd take that for sure. $2,000 for 20 kW (more than Tesla's $1500 for 20 kW because the stock Tesla charger is 10 kW, while the 2013 LEAF's is 6.6 kW) ... I'd think about that a little bit, but if we had it as an option, I'm actually certain I would get that. With the Tesla Model S coming out, we'll see some more 19 kW J1772 stations (80A * 240V = 19 kW).

And if we had that option on a few thousand LEAFs, I'd ask more sites with multiple J1772 stations and adequate power to install one 19 kW J1772. You don't always need the 19 kW, so many stations could would be 6.6 kW or maybe 10 kW, but a few hundred 19 kW j1772 stations in CA would greatly extend the utility of the LEAF if it had the larger on board charger. I'm already asking a few sites to put in a 19 kW J1772 when they have capacity because we soon have thousands of Tesla Model S on the road. Even if you purchase the Model S without the twin charger option, you can add it to the car later!! What a great idea, too bad we can't change our existing 3.3 kW charger to 6.6 or 10 kW in our 2010, 2011 and 2012 LEAFs.

 

[TRONZ]

I paid the 2$ fee at our Walgreens yesterday more as a "Thank You" than anything else. Their sites are now Emergency Only... and after 18mos I have had no emergencies so that's probably that.

 

[bobs]

You're all doing the charging rate kW math using 240V. That's correct for home EVSEs with residential "single-phase" power, but commercial 3-phase AC is 208V across the legs. You should expect lower peak kW charging rates (about 85%) to be available on a particular size breaker (e.g. 40A) in a common public installation on commercial power. Anything else requires significant engineering and construction and permitting and delays, so you won't see the typical restauranteur just popping one in so they can draw a green customer base for their brunch specials. And you won't see a high volume service provider like 350Green or CarCharging with custom low-volume product+service offerings like that.

Yes, you can install higher voltage (e.g. to support DCQC) and big breakers, but that requires a significant capital investment in the upstream delivery infrastructure, sometimes all the way back to the utility substation.

 

[KJD]

I paid the 2$ fee at our Walgreens yesterday more as a "Thank You" than anything else. Their sites are now Emergency Only... and after 18mos I have had no emergencies so that's probably that.

The Walgreens in Utah are still free to use. I charged at the Bountiful Utah Walgreens yesterday.

I asked the store manager how much longer they would stay free for users and he did not know. He seemed surprised to hear the stores in CA had a 2 dollar fee.

 

[DaveEV]

You're all doing the charging rate kW math using 240V. That's correct for home EVSEs with residential "single-phase" power, but commercial 3-phase AC is 208V across the legs. You should expect lower peak kW charging rates (about 85%) to be available on a particular size breaker (e.g. 40A) in a common public installation on commercial power.

The LEAF will draw more than 16A to make up for the voltage deficit if the EVSE is capable of delivering it...