Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

[DaveinOlyWA]

VERY interested to hear about the first warranty replacement as far as GID count, etc. if you get something back near 100%, I think this will allow even AZ;ens enough leeway to lease with minimal risk. The fact that most will go thru 2 sets of batteries is something that should catch Nissan's attention!

 

[Volusiano]

For me personally, I opened up a case to let Nissan know about my first bar loss in June 2012, then called again to update my case for the second bar loss in July 2012. I made it clear that I'm not happy and I'm looking for a remedy, not just reporting the losses. When I called back in December for a status, they closed my first case already without my consent. So I had to open up a new case with them, explicitly requested a buyback. They called me back a week later and asked me to wait for the warranty announcement to see if I like it or not. I agreed to wait. Then I waited some more to go to the Phoenix town hall to see if it might bear better results. Then a week after that I called them to let them know that I still want a buyback. That was 2 days ago. I called and left another message again today, and still no response. That's my personal ordeal so far asking for a buyback.

Did Nissan buy your car back or do you still have it ?

Yes, they approved the buyback request and I'm returning the LEAF to them this Friday. I just bought a new 2013 Volt yesterday to replace the LEAF.

 

[RegGuheert]

Yes, they approved the buyback request and I'm returning the LEAF to them this Friday. I just bought a new 2013 Volt yesterday to replace the LEAF.

Congratulations! I hope your new Volt serves you MUCH longer than the LEAF has!

 

[cwerdna]

Yes, they approved the buyback request and I'm returning the LEAF to them this Friday. I just bought a new 2013 Volt yesterday to replace the LEAF.

Congratulations! I hope your new Volt serves you MUCH longer than the LEAF has!

Yes. Congrats!

Would love to see how the Volt's batteries w/thermal management and all hold up after 2 or 3 hot AZ summers.

 

[Volusiano]

Thanks for all your good wishes. I do hope the Volt battery will last through the AZ summer. Below is some info about the Volt TMS mode I found in the GM-Volt forum. I thought it might be interesting reading here. Sorry for the bad formatting. I had to do cut and paste of the text.

It's important to note up front that we are talking about the temperature of the battery pack here, not ambient temperature. It's a 400 pound battery pack, well insulated, so it is going to take a long time to cool down / warm up to whatever the ambient temp is. An overnight park, even in a mode where the TMS isn't kicking in, is not necessarily long enough to get the pack to ambient. So an overnight low of -13 F doesn't mean the battery pack itself will actually cool down to that cold!

Volt battery temperature management system (TMS) modes

Temperature range | Volt is parked | Volt is parked | Volt is powered on
| and plugged in | but NOT plugged in | (e.g. being driven)
--------------------|------------------|--------------------|----------------------
above 122 F | cooling(1) | cooling(1) | car won't run until battery
| | | is cooled below 122 F by TMS(2)
122 F .. 86 F | cooling(1) | cooling(1) | cooling(2)
86 F .. 72 F | cooling(1) | | cooling(2)
72 F .. 68 F | no action -- ideal temperature band for long-term life
68 F .. 25 F | | |
25 F .. 14 F | warming | | warming(3)
14 F .. -13 F | warming | | warming(3)
below -13 F | warming | | car won't run until battery
| | | is warmed above -13 F by TMS(3)

* Notes:
(1) High temperature cooling will only run if the SOC is >75%. If the SOC is <75% then there is no action.
(2) At extreme high temps, the ICE may come on to generate power for the TMS to work faster,
but only if the car is powered on (that is, the ICE won't start by itself, unmanned)
(3) At low temps, the ICE may come on to generate power for the TMS to work faster, and to generate
power for the cabin heater, but only if the car is powered on (that is, the ICE won't start by itself; it will
only start once the car is powered on or it receives a remote-start command); the ICE will shut off once
it reaches 150 F. Note that the ICE coolant can not be used to directly heat the battery because the
battery coolant loop is separate.

 

[cwerdna]

^^^
Did your table come from http://gm-volt.com/forum/showthread.php?5243-Volt-thermal-management-system-temperature-band&p=48601#post48601" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;? (Not that I hang out much at gm-volt.com...)

If so... seems interesting.

 

[Volusiano]

^^^
Did your table come from http://gm-volt.com/forum/showthread.php?5243-Volt-thermal-management-system-temperature-band&p=48601#post48601" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;? (Not that I hang out much at gm-volt.com...)

If so... seems interesting.

Yes. I wanted to show it directly so people don't have to go to a link, but it's the same table. In retrospect, it's probably better to point to the link since my text copy was too messed up. Thanks for pointing out the link.

 

[RegGuheert]

(3) At low temps, the ICE may come on to generate power for the TMS to work faster, and to generate power for the cabin heater, but only if the car is powered on (that is, the ICE won't start by itself; it will only start once the car is powered on or it receives a remote-start command); the ICE will shut off once it reaches 150 F. Note that the ICE coolant can not be used to directly heat the battery because the battery coolant loop is separate.[/i]

Perhaps I am missing something, but that seems risky and potentially very dangerous. What prevents the Volt from turning the ICE on when it is parked in the garage? Hopefully connection to an EVSE prevents this behavior!

Also, what happens between 68F and 25F? If nothing, why does this temperature range have it's own row in the chart?

Edit: I guess connection to an EVSE DOES prevent that behavior since it is probably like a LEAF and you cannot get into READY mode with the EVSE connected. Still, it seems you need to be careful not to turn on your Volt in the garage when it is cold outside.

 

[Herm]

Congratulations Volusiano, enjoy your 50 miles of EV range.. with careful planning you can remain gas free most of the time.

 

[Volusiano]

(3) At low temps, the ICE may come on to generate power for the TMS to work faster, and to generate power for the cabin heater, but only if the car is powered on (that is, the ICE won't start by itself; it will only start once the car is powered on or it receives a remote-start command); the ICE will shut off once it reaches 150 F. Note that the ICE coolant can not be used to directly heat the battery because the battery coolant loop is separate.[/i]

Perhaps I am missing something, but that seems risky and potentially very dangerous. What prevents the Volt from turning the ICE on when it is parked in the garage? Hopefully connection to an EVSE prevents this behavior!

Also, what happens between 68F and 25F? If nothing, why does this temperature range have it's own row in the chart?

Edit: I guess connection to an EVSE DOES prevent that behavior since it is probably like a LEAF and you cannot get into READY mode with the EVSE connected. Still, it seems you need to be careful not to turn on your Volt in the garage when it is cold outside.

I guess that's why they put a qualifier in there and said that the ICE won't start by itself. That situation only works if the car is started by the owner either directly or via a remote-start command.

 

[RegGuheert]

I guess that's why they put a qualifier in there and said that the ICE won't start by itself. That situation only works if the car is started by the owner either directly or via a remote-start command.

Sure, I quoted that part. But that still doesn't prevent a Volt from filling a garage with CO inadvertently.

Here's a scenario that seems plausible to me: What happens in a couple of years when people no longer get OnStar for free and they stop paying for it? Will they go out to the garage and turn on the car to preheat it, not knowing it might run the gasoline motor?

Maybe this is far-fetched, but I can imagine it happening to some Volt owners. Is there something preventing this from happening?

 

[Volusiano]

I guess that's why they put a qualifier in there and said that the ICE won't start by itself. That situation only works if the car is started by the owner either directly or via a remote-start command.

Sure, I quoted that part. But that still doesn't prevent a Volt from filling a garage with CO inadvertently.

Here's a scenario that seems plausible to me: What happens in a couple of years when people no longer get OnStar for free and they stop paying for it? Will they go out to the garage and turn on the car to preheat it, not knowing it might run the gasoline motor?

Maybe this is far-fetched, but I can imagine it happening to some Volt owners. Is there something preventing this from happening?

I think if you own a Volt and you start the car (manually or remotely, doesn't matter), especially in cold weather, you must assume that at any moment there's a good chance of the ICE turning on to help heating up the cabin, so you have to use the same principle as operating an ICE car where you don't do it in an enclosed space.

In fact, many people complain that the ICE turns on in cold weather too often (for their taste) so in 2013 they changed the software to let people select to not have the ICE turned on unless it's VERY cold (as opposed to just cold). For people who don't have this new option (2012 and 2011 owners), they've figured out to trick the ICE from not turning on too often by running the cabin in Comfort mode upon (instead of ECO mode) to make the electric heater from the battery to work harder at warming up the cabin to prevent the ICE from turning on as often to provide heat to the cabin.

 

[leafwing]

Yes, they approved the buyback request and I'm returning the LEAF to them this Friday. I just bought a new 2013 Volt yesterday to replace the LEAF.

Congratulations for the buyback and the volt.

 

[GaslessInSeattle]

I somehow managed to trade in my 2012 for a 2012 Lease, with no money out of pocket and only a slightly higher monthly payment ($340 vs $375). for those feeling stuck, it's possible to cash in on loyalty and get both a decent trade in value and a deal on a lease for the last of the 2012's in stock. this was my 3rd Leaf at this dealer in under 3 years and that definitely helped. We are very relieved to be able to go back to being happy Leaf owners without so much worry about residual value, fortunately the climate up here is generally good for the Leaf so it was an attractive option. side note, it's remarkable to me that not all Leaf battery packs are created equal. I don't have hard numbers but my 2011 was pretty good, my first 2012, not so good, while the second 2012 seems to have surprisingly more range than either, like maybe 10 miles.

In any case, Nissan has two years to get it together if they want to keep us as EV customers. We'll be moving on at the end of this 24 month lease if they don't offer an option for a much larger battery pack and a real solution to the heat related capacity decline.

 

[Roadburner440]

I think if you own a Volt and you start the car (manually or remotely, doesn't matter), especially in cold weather, you must assume that at any moment there's a good chance of the ICE turning on to help heating up the cabin, so you have to use the same principle as operating an ICE car where you don't do it in an enclosed space.

I will dispell this now. There are only 5 instances where the Volts engine will kick on (6 if you have a 2013 with hold mode).. 1.) When you run out of battery charge 2.) When you open the hood with the car energized/on to warn you that the car is live 3.) In mountain mode when you get below 14 miles of range remaining 4.) When the exterior temperature is less than 25F (or on the 2013's 15F if you set it to low temp) 5.) On the 45th day that you have run in EV mode alone 6.) When turning on Hold mode (2013's only).

Other than that remote starting your Volt will not lead to the engine coming on unexpectedly. In 2 years of having my car it has never happened unexpectedly once. I knew the moment I walked out the door whether the gas engine would come on or not.

Personally I am in agreement with everyone here about moving on after the leases are up. Really strongly leaning toward buying a Tesla. GM has not improved the Voltec technology much beyond my 2012 except for software tweaks. Really disappointed the ELR and Spark EV will only be charging at 3.3kwh..... The Leaf would be a prime candidate to get a new one as it meets almost all of my needs however I do not think they have done any improvements at all to the battery.

 

[Herm]

Personally I am in agreement with everyone here about moving on after the leases are up. Really strongly leaning toward buying a Tesla. GM has not improved the Voltec technology much beyond my 2012 except for software tweaks. Really disappointed the ELR and Spark EV will only be charging at 3.3kwh..... The Leaf would be a prime candidate to get a new one as it meets almost all of my needs however I do not think they have done any improvements at all to the battery.

You really should not expect a major revision in 2 years from any OEM, usually takes 4, 5 or even 6 years.. in any case GM said early on that they would not increase battery size past 40 miles of range. Their goal now (both GM and Nissan) is to reduce manufacturing cost.

 

[Volusiano]

I think if you own a Volt and you start the car (manually or remotely, doesn't matter), especially in cold weather, you must assume that at any moment there's a good chance of the ICE turning on to help heating up the cabin, so you have to use the same principle as operating an ICE car where you don't do it in an enclosed space.

I will dispell this now. There are only 5 instances where the Volts engine will kick on (6 if you have a 2013 with hold mode).. 1.) When you run out of battery charge 2.) When you open the hood with the car energized/on to warn you that the car is live 3.) In mountain mode when you get below 14 miles of range remaining 4.) When the exterior temperature is less than 25F (or on the 2013's 15F if you set it to low temp) 5.) On the 45th day that you have run in EV mode alone 6.) When turning on Hold mode (2013's only).

Other than that remote starting your Volt will not lead to the engine coming on unexpectedly. In 2 years of having my car it has never happened unexpectedly once. I knew the moment I walked out the door whether the gas engine would come on or not.

Personally I am in agreement with everyone here about moving on after the leases are up. Really strongly leaning toward buying a Tesla. GM has not improved the Voltec technology much beyond my 2012 except for software tweaks. Really disappointed the ELR and Spark EV will only be charging at 3.3kwh..... The Leaf would be a prime candidate to get a new one as it meets almost all of my needs however I do not think they have done any improvements at all to the battery.

There's nothing to dispell because the scenario we've been talking about here is exactly scenario 4) that you outlined above on your list.

RegGuheert's concern is all about scenario 4) you outlined, whether the ICE will come on due to a car start inside an enclosed garage, filling it up with CO2.

 

[TomT]

Agreed. I have two years left on my lease and at this juncture it appears very unlikely that my next EV will be a Leaf...

In any case, Nissan has two years to get it together if they want to keep us as EV customers. We'll be moving on at the end of this 24 month lease if they don't offer an option for a much larger battery pack and a real solution to the heat related capacity decline.

 

[MrIanB]

Agreed. I have two years left on my lease and at this juncture it appears very unlikely that my next EV will be a Leaf...

In any case, Nissan has two years to get it together if they want to keep us as EV customers. We'll be moving on at the end of this 24 month lease if they don't offer an option for a much larger battery pack and a real solution to the heat related capacity decline.

I am w you Tom. More choices by then and unless they have a battery temp cooling system, I am not interested. I will not go through what some of the Az folks have had to deal with and Nissan's poor and slow response.

Ian B

 

[LEAFfan]

I think if you own a Volt and you start the car (manually or remotely, doesn't matter), especially in cold weather, you must assume that at any moment there's a good chance of the ICE turning on to help heating up the cabin, so you have to use the same principle as operating an ICE car where you don't do it in an enclosed space.

I will dispell this now. There are only 5 instances where the Volts engine will kick on (6 if you have a 2013 with hold mode).. 1.) When you run out of battery charge 2.) When you open the hood with the car energized/on to warn you that the car is live 3.) In mountain mode when you get below 14 miles of range remaining 4.) When the exterior temperature is less than 25F (or on the 2013's 15F if you set it to low temp) 5.) On the 45th day that you have run in EV mode alone 6.) When turning on Hold mode (2013's only).

Other than that remote starting your Volt will not lead to the engine coming on unexpectedly. In 2 years of having my car it has never happened unexpectedly once. I knew the moment I walked out the door whether the gas engine would come on or not.

Personally I am in agreement with everyone here about moving on after the leases are up. Really strongly leaning toward buying a Tesla. GM has not improved the Voltec technology much beyond my 2012 except for software tweaks. Really disappointed the ELR and Spark EV will only be charging at 3.3kwh..... The Leaf would be a prime candidate to get a new one as it meets almost all of my needs however I do not think they have done any improvements at all to the battery.

7. ? Going 70mph or faster? (read this somewhere)