Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

[surfingslovak]

Agreed, the SOC goes up for both LB and VLB on degraded packs. Back when the LEAF was knew, several of us thought that going down to the very low battery warning when needed should carry an insignificant penalty. That's where the voltage "knee" is located for new batteries. Since the VLB will move up in terms of true SOC on an aged pack, I would not hesitate to go a bit under VLB if needed. Even hitting turtle mode is not a cardinal sin when you are in a bind IMHO. I would just take care to avoid accelerating hard when driving at low SOC if possible.

 

[jhm614]

Had the software upgrade today. Looks like I am eligible for the 4 bar losers ("4BL") repair / placement. I am the second 4BL at Don Davis but they don't have a procedure worked out yet. They faxed my battery report off to Nissan (faxed?) and will keep me updated on my status.

Dealership has been unfailingly polite but vague on the details and timeline for the repair / replacement. The Service Advisor had no updated info today, so I opened up a case with No-Gas-Ev. I want to make sure that the repair / replacement does not drop into a black hole. The rep at No-Gas-Ev said that this was his first call about a 4BL warranty claim. He was aware of the updated capacity warranty and was able to tell that the software enhancement had been applied to my car. He verified that my dealership was Don Davis, double checked my contact info and said he would update me on Tuesday.

I have read that the next step is a more intensive test. Has anyone on the forum had the repair / replacement completed?

 

[TonyWilliams]

MODERATORS: Could we break out the "Battery Repaired / Replaced Under Warranty" posts into their own thread?

 

[N1ghtrider]

I lost my first bar yesterday, upon first getting into the car and seeing the GOM showed 85 mile range when it previously topped 90 in D after charging. 15,800 miles on my leased 2012 in hot South Florida. I always charge to 100%, but do not recharge every day; only when below 9 bars.

 

[dhanson865]

Still searching for a used car, still comparing traditional Prius vs Leaf because the PiP doesn't exist on the used car market at the prices I'm comparing.

Came across a AZ leaf with 2 bars lost that got sent to TN by way of Michigan but is listed as a one owner car. Presumably Nissan bought this one back from the original owner or from the dealer that accepted it as a trade in on a newer Nissan or maybe that is just how the carfax listing looks when a used car gets put on national auction after the dealer takes it as a trade in.

I went ahead and pulled most of the info I could and added it to the wiki.

I really don't think NADA, Kelly, etcetera have properly valued leafs with capacity loss as dealerships seem to base the price on book value no matter how many bars show on the dash.

Personally I still haven't decided were the bottom line is for me on how many bars lost is too many or how much less I'm willing to pay per bar lost but I know it'll take more of a discount on price than I'm currently seeing for me to consider these AZ leafs that are getting shipped around the country.

I feel sorry for the used car buyer that gets one of these from a non Nissan dealer as a used car as it'll be a AS-IS transaction and they'll likely have no recourse to reverse the transaction by the time they figure out the true range of the used car they bought.

 

[JPWhite]

I feel sorry for the used car buyer that gets one of these from a non Nissan dealer as a used car as it'll be a AS-IS transaction and they'll likely have no recourse to reverse the transaction by the time they figure out the true range of the used car they bought.

As always with second hand car buys. Buyer beware. What sort of price was the dealer asking? Trade-in values are depressed for second hand LEAF's.

Despite the fact the battery is degraded the buyer will benefit from capacity warranties and next year the battery replacement program. Maybe not outcomes they anticipated, but options nonetheless.

As an educated buyer you should be able to pick up a good car at a good price.

 

[RegGuheert]

Personally I still haven't decided were the bottom line is for me on how many bars lost is too many or how much less I'm willing to pay per bar lost but I know it'll take more of a discount on price than I'm currently seeing for me to consider these AZ leafs that are getting shipped around the country.

I think I would hold out for a LEAF with all 12 capacity bars, preferably from a cooler climate. It seems the concept of capacity loss is not well understood at this point, so those lost bars do not seem to be priced into used sales. In addition, we have very little idea what happens beyond the loss of the fourth bar. Will the battery fail quickly soon afterwards? Hopefully not, but we simply don't know.

 

[dhanson865]

I'm seeing 12 bar leafs at $17,000 and up and 8, 9, 10, 11 bar leafs anywhere from $15,000 on up (when I see bar loss leafs above $20,000 I figure the dealer is totally delusional or unaware of the lost value of an auction leaf with multiple bars missing).

I might sit it out a bit and wait for prices to drop but if they continue to ignore bar loss when pricing used leafs long enough I'll just buy a used Prius and call it good.

as an example the 4 cheapest on autotrader right now are

(9 bars) 3 bars lost 27,500 miles Blue $16,680 + tax/lic/title fees (no doc fee)
12 bars (0 bars lost) 11,500 miles Silver $16,988 + (no mention of fees but you have to assume there will be some)
(10 bars) 2 bars lost 22,750 miles Blue $17,500 + tax/lic/title fees
12 bars (0 bars lost) 4,400 miles White $17,995 + 399 dealer processing fee

try and make sense why the low mileage car with more bars is sandwiched in between two loser leafs from AZ (all of these are being sold east of the Mississippi). And tell me what discount you would expect for a 9 bar or 10 bar leaf vs the 12 bar leafs in that list. Is Blue paint worth that much extra?

 

[jspearman]

Common sense, but always take a good look at the Carfax on a used Leaf. My 2-bar loser from Phoenix ended up being sold to a (likely) unsuspecting soul in Nashville.

 

[mark1313]

I got to thinking about the battery issues and the warranty .. Im beginning to think that getting a new battery every 26000 miles is not that bad of a idea....As long as they are going to do a free replacement after every 4 bar loss its fine with me...
I know what to expect from the Leaf now unlike what I was told back in 2011 ...
I will look @ the battery like a gas tank for the next 2 years .. It will stay full for about a year and then start to lose gas the 2nd year..
The first year I will avg. 130-120 miles per charge , the 2nd year 120 down to 85 miles per charge..
Nissan was wrong when they said the Leaf would lose less battery charge and @ a slower pace after the first bar loss ...In my case I loss the first bar after 14 months of ownership and then loss 3 more bars 12 months later .......

 

[derkraut]

I got to thinking about the battery issues and the warranty .. Im beginning to think that getting a new battery every 26000 miles is not that bad of a idea....As long as they are going to do a free replacement after every 4 bar loss its fine with me...
I know what to expect from the Leaf now unlike what I was told back in 2011 ...
I will look @ the battery like a gas tank for the next 2 years .. It will stay full for about a year and then start to lose gas the 2nd year..
The first year I will avg. 130-120 miles per charge , the 2nd year 120 down to 85 miles per charge..
Nissan was wrong when they said the Leaf would lose less battery charge and @ a slower pace after the first bar loss ...In my case I loss the first bar after 14 months of ownership and then loss 3 more bars 12 months later .......

The first year, you'll average 130-120 miles per charge? Uh---I don't think so, unless you drive a constant 30mph on level ground @ 60 degrees F.

 

[jhm614]

I got to thinking about the battery issues and the warranty .. Im beginning to think that getting a new battery every 26000 miles is not that bad of a idea....As long as they are going to do a free replacement after every 4 bar loss its fine with me...
Nissan was wrong when they said the Leaf would lose less battery charge and @ a slower pace after the first bar loss ...In my case I loss the first bar after 14 months of ownership and then loss 3 more bars 12 months later

1) Remember, the warranty only says repair or replace to at least 9 bars. So the second free replacement might not be a 12 bar battery....

2) I completely agree about the losses speeding up after the first bar, rather than slowing down, and not just because the first bar represents double the capacity. Although, since heat comes into play, it probably depends on what month that you lose the first bar.

 

[LEAFfan]

I got to thinking about the battery issues and the warranty .. Im beginning to think that getting a new battery every 26000 miles is not that bad of a idea....As long as they are going to do a free replacement after every 4 bar loss its fine with me...
I know what to expect from the Leaf now unlike what I was told back in 2011 ...
I will look @ the battery like a gas tank for the next 2 years .. It will stay full for about a year and then start to lose gas the 2nd year..
The first year I will avg. 130-120 miles per charge , the 2nd year 120 down to 85 miles per charge..
Nissan was wrong when they said the Leaf would lose less battery charge and @ a slower pace after the first bar loss ...In my case I loss the first bar after 14 months of ownership and then loss 3 more bars 12 months later .......

The first year, you'll average 130-120 miles per charge? Uh---I don't think so, unless you drive a constant 30mph on level ground @ 60 degrees F.

I know so. Your knowledge seems to be limited and or lacking. It's very easy to obtain 5.8m/kW h which would give you over 120 miles AND it can be done easily at speeds above 40mph , doesn't have to be constant, nor does it have to be 60F (which would not be as good as higher temps). You can ask Stoaty his particulars on how he has maintained a 5.8m/kW h average over his entire time with his LEAF.

 

[LEAFfan]

Still searching for a used car, still comparing traditional Prius vs Leaf because the PiP doesn't exist on the used car market at the prices I'm comparing.

Came across a AZ leaf with 2 bars lost that got sent to TN by way of Michigan but is listed as a one owner car. Presumably Nissan bought this one back from the original owner or from the dealer that accepted it as a trade in on a newer Nissan or maybe that is just how the carfax listing looks when a used car gets put on national auction after the dealer takes it as a trade in.

I went ahead and pulled most of the info I could and added it to the wiki.

I really don't think NADA, Kelly, etcetera have properly valued leafs with capacity loss as dealerships seem to base the price on book value no matter how many bars show on the dash.

Personally I still haven't decided were the bottom line is for me on how many bars lost is too many or how much less I'm willing to pay per bar lost but I know it'll take more of a discount on price than I'm currently seeing for me to consider these AZ leafs that are getting shipped around the country.

I feel sorry for the used car buyer that gets one of these from a non Nissan dealer as a used car as it'll be a AS-IS transaction and they'll likely have no recourse to reverse the transaction by the time they figure out the true range of the used car they bought.

Remember, a 12 CB car could be close to a 15-20% loss. If I were you, I would borrow someone's LEAF Battery App and look at the AH, SoH, and GIDs on those 12 bar cars.

 

[dhanson865]

Still searching for a used car, still comparing traditional Prius vs Leaf because the PiP doesn't exist on the used car market at the prices I'm comparing.

Came across a AZ leaf with 2 bars lost that got sent to TN by way of Michigan but is listed as a one owner car. Presumably Nissan bought this one back from the original owner or from the dealer that accepted it as a trade in on a newer Nissan or maybe that is just how the carfax listing looks when a used car gets put on national auction after the dealer takes it as a trade in.

I went ahead and pulled most of the info I could and added it to the wiki.

I really don't think NADA, Kelly, etcetera have properly valued leafs with capacity loss as dealerships seem to base the price on book value no matter how many bars show on the dash.

Personally I still haven't decided were the bottom line is for me on how many bars lost is too many or how much less I'm willing to pay per bar lost but I know it'll take more of a discount on price than I'm currently seeing for me to consider these AZ leafs that are getting shipped around the country.

I feel sorry for the used car buyer that gets one of these from a non Nissan dealer as a used car as it'll be a AS-IS transaction and they'll likely have no recourse to reverse the transaction by the time they figure out the true range of the used car they bought.

Remember, a 12 CB car could be close to a 15-20% loss. If I were you, I would borrow someone's LEAF Battery App and look at the AH, SoH, and GIDs on those 12 bar cars.

I already have the leaf battery app and a Bluetooth adapter. But when searching over the internet you at least know that a 12 bar leaf has more capacity than a 9 bar leaf.

Besides honestly do you think any dealer will budge his price based on battery capacity readings on a 12 bar leaf? We already know they don't vary the price when visible bars are missing on the dash display.

Even if they would these cars are all in different cities\states so I'm going to have to make a decision before I drive to inspect a car. I'd also have to drive it back from the dealer which could be an ordeal of its own as I trickle charge and/or L2 charge several times on the trip back (assuming I bought the car). Luckily in that case I'd have my wife drive the Prius back so I'd have a chase car though I guess even a used leaf can call for a Nissan tow?

 

[kolmstead]

Lost capacity bar number two this morning. The first one departed one year ago.

Leaf #257
22,400 miles
30 months of ownership
50.60 Amp-hr (76.37%)
71.60% health
100% charge gives 211 GIDs (75.0%)
80% charge gives 177 GIDS (63.3%)

Haven't had P3227 update. I routinely see LBW at about 42 miles with an 80% charge. Averaging about 5.6 miles per kWh.

-Karl

 

[TomT]

I'm sorry but that is very much the exception and most definitely an outlier. Most people are not anal or OCD enough to average neatly 6 M/Kwr... So, 120 miles is NOT the norm and few average drivers will see it, particularly on a regular basis.

It's very easy to obtain 5.8m/kW h which would give you over 120 miles AND it can be done easily at speeds above 40mph , doesn't have to be constant, nor does it have to be 60F (which would not be as good as higher temps). You can ask Stoaty his particulars on how he has maintained a 5.8m/kW h average over his entire time with his LEAF.

 

[mark1313]

I must be super anal and OCD must run in my blood ...Im currently averaging 6.3 M/KW @ 29000 miles .. I just try to time all the red lights and get as much out of a charge as possible ..

 

[GRA]

I can't remember if these NREL reports have ever been mentioned before, so thought I'd post links:

"Variability of Battery Wear in Light-Duty Plug-in Electric Vehicles Subject to Ambient Temperature, Battery Size and Consumer Usage"

http://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy12osti/53953.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Although their model uses a battery with NCA chemistry, I'm sure all here can recognize which cars they based the BEV and PEV on.


"Battery Wear from Disparate Duty-Cycles: Opportunities for Electric-Drive Vehicle Battery Health Management"

http://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy13osti/54698.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[z0ner]

Boy, that was quick.

Three months after I lost the first bar (April 25), I noticed this morning that the second one gave up the ghost. Odom=27177

This is with July in So Cal being one of the coolest on record.

At this rate, I should be a 4BL (four bar loser) by the end of January . The cooler months should actually slow down the degradation, but it seems quite possible that I'll be turning this lease in with four bars down come next April. Tsk, tsk.