Car Charging Group tips its hat to SAE Combo as debate cont.

[scottf200]

Car Charging Group tips its hat to SAE Combo as debate continues -- By Jon LeSage
Posted Nov 6th 2012 3:01PM
http://green.autoblog.com/2012/11/06/car-charging-group-tips-its-hat-to-sae-combo-as-debate-continues/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The battle between the SAE Combo and CHAdeMO DC fast charger just tipped a little bit toward SAE's "J1772 EV and Plug In Hybrid EV Conductive Charge Coupler." The Car Charging Group is endorsing the new SAE Combo standard that couples a DC fast charger with the J1772 AC 240-volt charger, all in one charging point.

Car Charging Endorses SAE’s New EV Combi Coupler -- BY PHILIPPE CROWE
Nov 1, 2012
http://www.hybridcars.com/news/car-charging-endorses-sae%E2%80%99s-new-ev-coupler-58117.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

A couple of weeks after the Society of Automobile Engineers announced its new combo plug-in vehicle connector, the Car Charging Group, Inc. has said it will endorse this standard, more formally called "J1772 EV and Plug In Hybrid EV Conductive Charge Coupler."

The SAE’s charge coupler will serve as Car Charging Group’s new standard plug for connecting EV charging stations to EVs and Plug In Hybrid EVs in order to charge the vehicle's battery.

[350Green LLC] Firm installing Chicago's car-charging stations to be acquired [Car Charging Group, Inc]
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2012-10-23/business/chi-firm-installing-chicagos-carcharging-stations-to-be-acquired-20121023_1_350green-llc-electric-vehicle-stations" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

350 Green would become a wholly owned subsidiary of Car Charging Group, which would be responsible for completing the Chicago project along with other build outs in Pennsylvania and the San Francisco Bay area.

The transaction marries two business with similar business models. Both companies have agreements with Deerfield-based Walgreen Co. and 350Green has a partnership with Simon Property Group, Inc., an owner of malls.

The deal would position Car Charging as the largest public electric vehicle service provider in the United States with more than 1,000 EV charging locations installed and contracts with nearly every major mall operator in the country.

 

[scottf200]

350green charging infrustructure map (ie. they are bigger than Chicagoland):
https://350green.com/locate/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[TonyWilliams]

350green charging infrustructure map (ie. they are bigger than Chicagoland):

They didn't stay they were converting anything over (which would be stupid, financially).

 

[DaveEV]

350green charging infrustructure map (ie. they are bigger than Chicagoland)

99% of those stations are L2 J1772 stations.

 

[ksnogas2112]

All of the one's in KC are only the Walgreens J1772 and that is less than 25% of all the devices in the metro.

 

[scottf200]

350green charging infrustructure map (ie. they are bigger than Chicagoland)

99% of those stations are L2 J1772 stations.

Indeed. The 350green map just shows all the places that the Car Charging Group (new owner of 350green) has influence/business relations. Their website: http://www.carcharging.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; via http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Car_Charging_Group" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It would seem it also indicates where they could put the J1772 combo DC chargers in the future ... and then it would seem where they will not be putting CHAdeMO DC chargers.

 

[walterbays]

99% of those stations are L2 J1772 stations.

And all of the handful of cars which could potentially use an SAE Combo plug (Chevy Spark) will be in California. For the next few years if CCG wants to have any customers for its QC stations they'd better offer CHAdeMO.

In a few years I can imagine it changing. Per the settlement agreement NRG's California stations will be capable of SAE Combo charging once a significant number of such cars are on the road. Probably their stations will initially be CHAdeMO only with a second port ready to be installed if and when it's necessary. Using its Spark compliance car as a large scale test program GM could decide that a pure BEV in its fleet is a perfect complement to its Volt, and begin production and marketing on national scale. And BMW could arrive with a production BEV even earlier, probably also SAE Combo capable. Like NRG, CCG might build all of its QC stations for dual ports, and so Chicago could be an ideal location to be included in GM's large scale BEV roll-out. So then we'd have reasonably large numbers of both CHAdeMO and SAE Combo capable cars on the road, visiting charging stations most of which would offer both - just as most gas stations offer regular, premium, diesel, and high ethanol.

A few years after that sales volumes would probably determine whether CHAdeMO or SAE Combo won out. More likely CHAdeMO.v2 or SAE Combo.v2 or Tesla.v2.

 

[edatoakrun]

The Car Charging Group (new owner of 350green) seems to have a large financial interest in obsolescent technology, public L2 "opportunity charging" just as GM has a large stranded investment in obsolescent PHEV technology.

So it should be no great surprise that they share GM's interest in blocking the fast charge infrastructure development, by supporting the SAE DC standard.

In fact, there is presently no economic rationale for the SAE DC standard, since no vehicle manufacturer has invested in the necessary EV production capacity to support a network of public stations. There are nearly 20,000 CHADeMO BEVs on the roads in America today, a total appearing to be perhaps five years away for the SAE DC standard. And American sales of CHADdeMO capable EVs can be expected to outsell SAE DC capable vehicles, by at least ten to one, for the foreseeable future.

Two corporations have the opportunity to alter this present reality.

GM could make the Volt SAE DC capable, accelerating it's inevitable demise as a modified ICEV drive-train PHEV, and accelerating the BEV ascendancy. I doubt that GM will do this, since it will want to wring every dollar it can out of it's huge Volt investment.

Or, Nissan, which is expected to sell ~90% of all US-Market DC capable EVs in the next few years, could decide to transition to the SAE standard for the US market, probably by offering a SAE combo plug next to the CHADdeMO plug (which will remain necessary for many years, since the vast majority of US existing charge stations will probably remain CHADdeMO). I think Nissan will do this, only if other manufactures build SAE DC capable EVs at greater than the present rate of a trickle, only to meet "compliance" standards. And since large scale SAE DC capable EV production is not on the horizon yet, I doubt Nissan will be in any hurry to do this.

We will probably have a token number or SAE DC chargers installed in California, and perhaps elsewhere, a few years from now.

At that time, we may see technical advantages to either standard become apparent.

Too bad, IMO, that will probably be the least important factor in our decision to adopt one or the other...

 

[edatoakrun]

...Per the settlement agreement NRG's California stations will be capable of SAE Combo charging once a significant number of such cars are on the road...

I cant find the details of the SAE requirement for The NRG stations. Anyone know what sales levels trigger it?

 

[walterbays]

I cant find the details of the SAE requirement for The NRG stations. Anyone know what sales levels trigger it?

News reports are vague on the number. I wonder whether the settlement agreement is precise, or leaves it up to NRG to interpret. I think you're probably right that they'll put in one or two SAE QC stations, probably in San Francisco and Los Angeles, to demonstrate they can do it. And then wait for further deployment until GM starts production of Spark beyond pilot test quantities.

http://smartenergyuniverse.com/elec...ctric-vehicle-charging-infrastructure-forward

 

[smkettner]

I can't imagine installing even one SAE-QC before a single vehicle is sold.
Although GM must have far more connections to push than Nissan.

 

[TonyWilliams]

I can't imagine installing even one SAE-QC before a single vehicle is sold.
Although GM must have far more connections to push than Nissan.

Yes, they tried to push the California legislature into specifically abandoning CHAdeMO, and only fund Frankenplugs.

They, of course, weren't successful, but the balls it takes to request that is telling as to their perceived stature.

 

[edatoakrun]

Remember, there are a few more wild cards, IMO.

GM has announced that the Spark SAE DC capability will be available only as an option.

I wonder how many of the few spark buyers will be willing to pay extra for the DC port? Especially if GM makes the DC option cheap, Volt owners might start to ask questions...

And Tesla has claimed that the S's with fast charge capability should be able to easily adapt to SAE DC, whenever it is actually a reality.

Since S drivers probably should expect long waits for a plug-in at their "free" Supercharger network, at least occasionally, all those vacant (albeit slower and for-fee) SAE DCs might look pretty tempting to S drivers...

BMW, who knows? If you have the "range extender" ICEV option, it will still be much faster just to gas-up, anyway, right?

And you might get some pretty impressive freeway mpg numbers, off the 600 cc ICE, lessening the BEV efficiency and cost advantages of a DC recharge...

 

[Stanton]

The Car Charging Group (new owner of 350green) seems to have a large financial interest in obsolescent technology, public L2 "opportunity charging" just as GM has a large stranded investment in obsolescent PHEV technology.

So it should be no great surprise that they share GM's interest in blocking the fast charge infrastructure development, by supporting the SAE DC standard.

Well said and totally agree. Ultimately, this kind of "standards battle" only hurts widespread EV adoption, and I blame GM for delaying said adoption AGAIN (EV1 anyone?) :evil:

 

[hill]

I cant find the details of the SAE requirement for The NRG stations. Anyone know what sales levels trigger it?

News reports are vague on the number. I wonder whether the settlement agreement is precise, or leaves it up to NRG to interpret. I think you're probably right that they'll put in one or two SAE QC stations, probably in San Francisco and Los Angeles . . . . . . . snip . . . .

L.A. ?? After 2 years of Leaf availability and arguably the largest quantity of EV's with Q.C. need, the L.A. (and surrounding area) has a total of just ONE public QC, due to demand fees. If the area only warrants one QC with (possibly) thousands of Leafs in the area, I'd like to know how GM can swing a frankenplug (and of course, you KNOW it won't have a Chademo head on it so that anyone else can use it).

 

[scottf200]

Since BMW obviously has skin in the game it will be interesting when their J1772 combo cars will hit the road and where.

From TomMoloughney Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 11:33 am

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=205597#p205597" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

BMW has had a couple dozen ActiveE's using the SAE Combo plug for a while now, undoubtedly testing it for the i3. Here is a picture of an ActiveE charge port with it that was taken at EVS26 in California last month. The plug can fit in the same opening currently used on the ActiveE for the J1772.

I also have a picture of a CHAdeMO connector next to the SAE plug. They really isn't that much difference in weight and size when you hold them both up at the same time. I didn't take these pictures, but I have seen and held both connectors at the same time.

Pictures in above link