CHAdeMO and SAE dual ported DC Fast Chargers

[tps]

I think it's a real shame when the states reward the Amarican car companies for delaying the introduction of EVs, while the penalize the Japanese, especially a company like Nissan, who is doing a lot to push the technology. So far as QC standards, I think we might point out that Chademo has rolled out in many countries of the world already, so it is already a world standard. I wonder if the SAE standard will be adopted outside North America? This kind of stuff where large American industries buy off our politicians has been going on for years; it's just the way US politics works...

 

[TimeHorse]

I know there's CHAdeMO in the UK at least, mainly at a handful of Nyssa-n (because they pronounce it that way over there) dealerships. But that said, the Germans are keen to go with a different standard whose name escapes me at the moment, but I believe is IEC 62196, Mode 4.

 

[scottf200]

I think it's a real shame when the states reward the Amarican car companies for delaying the introduction of EVs, while the penalize the Japanese, especially a company like Nissan, who is doing a lot to push the technology. So far as QC standards, I think we might point out that Chademo has rolled out in many countries of the world already, so it is already a world standard. I wonder if the SAE standard will be adopted outside North America? This kind of stuff where large American industries buy off our politicians has been going on for years; it's just the way US politics works...

1) Tom M's post with pictures where BMW has been doing early testing of the SAE Combo on the ActiveE? Proves it's real and far enough long to be testable.
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=205597#p205597" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

2) The Slow Process of EV Charging Standardization
By John Gartner · June 12, 2012
http://www.plugincars.com/slow-process-ev-charging-standardization-122126.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

When it began developing a standard connector in 2007, which was long before any of this generation of PEVs had hit the market, the SAE decided it wanted a connector with few pins and that was as small as possible so it would be consumer friendly. When the SAE first began its standards work, the CHAdeMO specification was presented and considered for adoption, but the group ultimately preferred a single connector and chose to develop its own standard.

SAE began relying on power line carrier communications (PLC) when it began to work on an AC charging connector, and the group continued that philosophy with its DC charger development. PLC piggybacks digital communications information over the power line for communications with equipment off the vehicle. The new combo AC and DC connector will take the CAN messages and change them into PLC messages that are governed by the charger’s control pilot equipment.

In addition to these technical issues, the two groups had clearly differing philosophies on the urgency of providing a DC connector standard. Nissan, Mitsubishi, and other CHAdeMO backers wanted PEVs to launch with a fast charging DC option. At the time, SAE’s work was likely years away from completion. Since a CHAdeMO specification was available, they began shipping CHAdeMO-compatible vehicles in 2010 and were comfortable with a two-port solution.

Other automotive OEMs (largely in Germany and the United States) were not in as much rush to deliver vehicles or a DC charging standard.

According to the SAE’s Kissel “the priority was always AC,” and that decision has led to the broad adoption of the J1772 connector.

3) Seven manufacturers support J1772 L3 DC Quick chrgr over CHAdeMO
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=6215" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[ztanos]

3) Seven manufacturers support J1772 L3 DC Quick chrgr over CHAdeMO
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=6215" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

3 of which are also using Chademo.

 

[DANandNAN]

As for cost, consider a 60 mi range on a QC. Compare that to a Prius running petrol which should get just a bit less than that per gallon. The cost of a gallon of gas is a shade under $4 so IMHO $4 per session is quite fair. But take 350Green (now CarCharging's) model of $7 per session. I'd happily pay that for a session even if it worked out to only about 32 mpg in today's fuel costs. The point for me is not having to buy the blood liquid and bring our troops home. That, for me, is more important than and fuel cost savings, but maybe although an environmentalist may feel the same way for different reasons than mine for national security I agree that not everyone is willing to pay it. But mating the average cost of a gallon of gas is a pretty good ball-park for a fair price for L3 IMHO. I don't think it should be free. And the important thing too is that the owner spent *some* money on the station, so they're financially invested and thus of course would take an interest in the stations well-being and upkeep. That's the other problem with out-and-out grants which is why I favor a credit or at least a micro loan that allows for an extended ROI.

You're assuming that they're profitable at $7. That they can live with an "investment" that will never pay for itself. One that won't still won't be used by most Leaf owners on a regular basis. And, will be used by even less if they raised their prices to make it profitable (paying for things like demand charges, station installation, station maintenance, insurance and so on).

Tony Williams' thread http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=8854" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; is a great point of reference.


ztanos,
Testing and production vehicles are different, no?

 

[hill]

You're assuming that they're profitable at $7. That they can live with an "investment" that will never pay for itself. One that won't still won't be used by most Leaf owners on a regular basis. And, will be used by even less if they raised their prices to make it profitable (paying for things like demand charges, station installation, station maintenance, insurance and so on).

Tony Williams' thread http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=8854" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; is a great point of reference.


ztanos,
Testing and production vehicles are different, no?

Most QC stations in CA already eat the 'demand-fee' via all the other business that their facility does (elevators - lifts - compressors - air handlers etc) so from there on in - it's just the rate they pay per kWh. Even $10 / charge (presume from 10% SOC to 80% SOC) for maybe 15kWh's. That works out to 67 cents per kWh ... enough to get a lil' sump'n sump'n cash. At $15 / charge you'd get $1 per kWh. That's more 'per unit' profit than gas station owners get per gallon compared to 1 kWh - and a gallon goes a lot farther than 1 kWh. Plus, the electricity doesn't foul the gas stations property, requiring tanks to be dug up every so often for replacement / polluted land remediation.

.

 

[DANandNAN]

Most QC stations in CA already eat the 'demand-fee' via all the other business that their facility does (elevators - lifts - compressors - air handlers etc) so from there on in - it's just the rate they pay per kWh. Even $10 / charge (presume from 10% SOC to 80% SOC) for maybe 15kWh's. That works out to 67 cents per kWh ... enough to get a lil' sump'n sump'n cash. At $15 / charge you'd get $1 per kWh. That's more 'per unit' profit than gas station owners get per gallon compared to 1 kWh - and a gallon goes a lot farther than 1 kWh. Plus, the electricity doesn't foul the gas stations property, requiring tanks to be dug up every so often for replacement / polluted land remediation.

.

Sorry, but you can't have it both ways. If you want to compare "QC" stations to gas stations then can include the profit margin difference (once there is one) but you also have to include the number of users. A typical station in a busier area pumps about 3-7K gallons per day. At the low end of 3K gallons that's still 200 cars per day. A typical "QC" station will service how many Leaf's per day?

At $15/ charge you'd virtually eliminate all your Leaf traffic.

 

[TimeHorse]

You're assuming that they're profitable at $7. That they can live with an "investment" that will never pay for itself. One that won't still won't be used by most Leaf owners on a regular basis. And, will be used by even less if they raised their prices to make it profitable (paying for things like demand charges, station installation, station maintenance, insurance and so on).

Tony Williams' thread http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=8854" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; is a great point of reference.


ztanos,
Testing and production vehicles are different, no?

Most QC stations in CA already eat the 'demand-fee' via all the other business that their facility does (elevators - lifts - compressors - air handlers etc) so from there on in - it's just the rate they pay per kWh. Even $10 / charge (presume from 10% SOC to 80% SOC) for maybe 15kWh's. That works out to 67 cents per kWh ... enough to get a lil' sump'n sump'n cash. At $15 / charge you'd get $1 per kWh. That's more 'per unit' profit than gas station owners get per gallon compared to 1 kWh - and a gallon goes a lot farther than 1 kWh. Plus, the electricity doesn't foul the gas stations property, requiring tanks to be dug up every so often for replacement / polluted land remediation.

.

You know, before your reply Hill, I was planning to say something similar because though I like Dan and Not a Number he clearly is living up to his name because he hasn't shown us one number to back up his point but just wants to ping us emotionally with what he feels must be right. Truth be known, there is a sweet spot that would make CHAdeMO with an upgrade to SAE profitable. What that sweet spot is is hard to say, but it comes down to let's say $9,000 equipment, $4,000 electrical work and $1,000 to swap out one of the TEPCO plugs running CHAdeMO for the SAE J1772 L3 when demand indicates. Alas, there's no more EVSE credit and much as I'd love a new EVSE credit at the state/commonwealth/province level, it's gonna take time on my part to lobby the General Assemblies and Parliaments to see these laws enacted. So we'll take these costs as is.

I also suggest there's a maintenance cost for the station, but I'd guess that may be as little as $100 per year given warranties and other protections the station owner would have against failure. Consider it like an insurance deductible.

Again, starting from Hill's well-reasoned premise, let's assume 15 cents per kWh is the actual per kWh cost to the station owner. This isn't unreasonable as the national average is about 11 cents per kWh but we may be talking about 30-40 cents per kWh in places like Hawaii so adjust the math accordingly in those locations.

Ideally, these stations will be per kWh cost not per session but most are currently by session and I'd suggest that on average they're going from 20% to 80% (because no-one wants to get to turtle mode) which represents about 12 kWh assuming 100% represents about 20kWh as has been observed elsewhere. Thus we have about $1.80 in electricity cost for each session on average, meaning that everything above that is used to pay for the equipment. So at $7 you have $5.20 per session. But the nice thing is each of those visitors are potential customers so really you may expect as much as $5 more business by providing a location lucrative to a certain clientele that wouldn't normally visit.

As an aside I'd like to stop here and provide a very practical example: I love the Hard Times Cafe. When the Hard Times Cafe in Herndon, VA closed I was devastated. The property lay fallow for more than 5 years because the landlord raised the rent, an example of poor business acumen considering no revenue from any tenant is better than reduced revenue from a tenant that's not making enough. But in any case I swore I would boycott any business that took the location of the old Hard Times Cafe as a boycott against the landlord in general. But then they put in a MOM's Organic Market. MOM's is an EV friendly business that was kind enough to put 2 L2 Coulomb units in the unfortunate location of right in front of their store. This was a tremendous benefit to me when my power utility disconnected my EV service for a month while I waited for a new, ToU meter (not a worthwhile investment, BTW). Now I shop at MOM's all the time and can't speak more highly of them. I'm sure they've made well more than $5 net profit from all of my visits and use of their station.

So, given about $10 back from the original $7 per session station, with half from the session fee and half coming from increased business, it takes only 10 people per year to recoup the cost of the expected annual maintenance. Beyond that, we're paying off the EVSEs. That said, if you can't expect more than 10 per year you probably shouldn't be building a station. We the potential customers can help you there because I for one will tell anyone interested in building a station if I don't think it's a prime or practical location given what I know from the combined experience of many an EV driver.

Clearly the payoff will require about 1,500 sessions to pay off the stations completely, but what needs to be remembered is those are one-time, fixed costs. Once paid off, it takes just 10 sessions per year to maintain. If 510 people visit per year, about 42 a month or 1 and a third per day, the payoff is 3 years. If it's more like 310 per year, 25 a month or less than 1 a day, it's 5 years. If it's an abysmal 120 per year, about 10 per month or one every 3 days, it'll take just under 14 years to pay off. OTOH, with a credit that 120 per year use case could become as little as 7-10 years and that's I think the ROI sweet spot and after that point it's nothing but profit after the first 10. Want to get there quicker, the station owner could charge $10 per session. That means it's more like 1,200 sessions to pay off. $15 puts you at a mere 833.

There are many ways a business can make this work. I think $7 is the sweet spot with a tax credit to reduce the upfront cost. The station owner still should pay, they need to have a stake to prevent spurious stations from being built in the middle of nowhere. But it can be done even without the credit. It just makes thinks easier because a 7 year ROI is sweet!

 

[Herm]

$100 in maintenance per year is naive.. expect a new handle every couple of months if you are lucky. Its possible the maintenance will outstrip the utility charges.

 

[hill]

You're assuming that they're profitable at $7. That they can live with an "investment" that will never pay for itself. One that won't still won't be used by most Leaf owners on a regular basis. And, will be used by even less if they raised their prices to make it profitable (paying for things like demand charges, station installation, station maintenance, insurance and so on).

Tony Williams' thread http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=8854" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; is a great point of reference.


ztanos,
Testing and production vehicles are different, no?

Most QC stations in CA already eat the 'demand-fee' via all the other business that their facility does (elevators - lifts - compressors - air handlers etc) so from there on in - it's just the rate they pay per kWh. Even $10 / charge (presume from 10% SOC to 80% SOC) for maybe 15kWh's. That works out to 67 cents per kWh ... enough to get a lil' sump'n sump'n cash. At $15 / charge you'd get $1 per kWh. That's more 'per unit' profit than gas station owners get per gallon compared to 1 kWh - and a gallon goes a lot farther than 1 kWh. Plus, the electricity doesn't foul the gas stations property, requiring tanks to be dug up every so often for replacement / polluted land remediation.

.

You know, before your reply Hill, I was planning to say something similar because though I like Dan and Not a Number he clearly is living up to his name because he hasn't shown us one number to back up his point but just wants to ping us emotionally with what he feels must be right. Truth be known, there is a sweet spot that would make CHAdeMO with an upgrade to SAE profitable. What that sweet spot is is hard to say, but it comes down to let's say $9,000 equipment, $4,000 electrical work and $1,000 to swap out one of the TEPCO plugs running CHAdeMO for the SAE J1772 L3 when demand indicates. Alas, there's no more EVSE credit and much as I'd love a new EVSE credit at the state/commonwealth/province level, it's gonna take time on my part to lobby the General Assemblies and Parliaments to see these laws enacted. So we'll take these costs as is.

I also suggest there's a maintenance cost for the station, but I'd guess that may be as little as $100 per year given warranties and other protections the station owner would have against failure. Consider it like an insurance deductible.

Again, starting from Hill's well-reasoned premise, let's assume 15 cents per kWh is the actual per kWh cost to the station owner. This isn't unreasonable as the national average is about 11 cents per kWh but we may be talking about 30-40 cents per kWh in places like Hawaii so adjust the math accordingly in those locations.

Ideally, these stations will be per kWh cost not per session but most are currently by session and I'd suggest that on average they're going from 20% to 80% (because no-one wants to get to turtle mode) which represents about 12 kWh assuming 100% represents about 20kWh as has been observed elsewhere. Thus we have about $1.80 in electricity cost for each session on average, meaning that everything above that is used to pay for the equipment. So at $7 you have $5.20 per session. But the nice thing is each of those visitors are potential customers so really you may expect as much as $5 more business by providing a location lucrative to a certain clientele that wouldn't normally visit.

As an aside I'd like to stop here and provide a very practical example: I love the Hard Times Cafe. When the Hard Times Cafe in Herndon, VA closed I was devastated. The property lay fallow for more than 5 years because the landlord raised the rent, an example of poor business acumen considering no revenue from any tenant is better than reduced revenue from a tenant that's not making enough. But in any case I swore I would boycott any business that took the location of the old Hard Times Cafe as a boycott against the landlord in general. But then they put in a MOM's Organic Market. MOM's is an EV friendly business that was kind enough to put 2 L2 Coulomb units in the unfortunate location of right in front of their store. This was a tremendous benefit to me when my power utility disconnected my EV service for a month while I waited for a new, ToU meter (not a worthwhile investment, BTW). Now I shop at MOM's all the time and can't speak more highly of them. I'm sure they've made well more than $5 net profit from all of my visits and use of their station.

So, given about $10 back from the original $7 per session station, with half from the session fee and half coming from increased business, it takes only 10 people per year to recoup the cost of the expected annual maintenance. Beyond that, we're paying off the EVSEs. That said, if you can't expect more than 10 per year you probably shouldn't be building a station. We the potential customers can help you there because I for one will tell anyone interested in building a station if I don't think it's a prime or practical location given what I know from the combined experience of many an EV driver.

Clearly the payoff will require about 1,500 sessions to pay off the stations completely, but what needs to be remembered is those are one-time, fixed costs. Once paid off, it takes just 10 sessions per year to maintain. If 510 people visit per year, about 42 a month or 1 and a third per day, the payoff is 3 years. If it's more like 310 per year, 25 a month or less than 1 a day, it's 5 years. If it's an abysmal 120 per year, about 10 per month or one every 3 days, it'll take just under 14 years to pay off. OTOH, with a credit that 120 per year use case could become as little as 7-10 years and that's I think the ROI sweet spot and after that point it's nothing but profit after the first 10. Want to get there quicker, the station owner could charge $10 per session. That means it's more like 1,200 sessions to pay off. $15 puts you at a mere 833.

There are many ways a business can make this work. I think $7 is the sweet spot with a tax credit to reduce the upfront cost. The station owner still should pay, they need to have a stake to prevent spurious stations from being built in the middle of nowhere. But it can be done even without the credit. It just makes thinks easier because a 7 year ROI is sweet!

Whether or not these numbers work or not - another consideration is (just like gas stations) that the capitol outlay is all write-off, as a business venture ... just as the merchants electricity cost is a write off, as is their maintenance, their auto expense, insurance etc. Some ventures invest - knowing their may be 'loss' and find it acceptable, strictly for offsetting other ventures. Just sayin' ... making a buck can get pretty creative. That's why multi-national companies like Exxon can make hundreds of millions, yet pay no tax . . . . and for that matter - pride their self for having huge carry-over loss each year.

.

 

[TimeHorse]

Whether or not these numbers work or not - another consideration is (just like gas stations) that the capitol outlay is all write-off, as a business venture ... just as the merchants electricity cost is a write off, as is their maintenance, their auto expense, insurance etc. Some ventures invest - knowing their may be 'loss' and find it acceptable, strictly for offsetting other ventures. Just sayin' ... making a buck can get pretty creative. That's why multi-national companies like Exxon can make hundreds of millions, yet pay no tax . . . . and for that matter - pride their self for having huge carry-over loss each year.

.

Yes, capital depreciation is actually another way a business can reduce the ROI, something we as individual can't do but places like SolarCity can do as part of their up to 16 year ROI in Virginia with no incentives at the Commonwealth level Solar Lease program.

 

[HoustonFlier]

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=5806#p196140

We now offer you a choice in how we give you a prostate exam! :lol:

The left one is for females (for upper and lower, ah, holes).
Right is male version

:lol:

 

[HoustonFlier]

That's why multi-national companies like Exxon can make hundreds of millions, yet pay no tax . . . . and for that matter - pride their self for having huge carry-over loss each year.

.

Modus operandai (sp?) for airliners for decades

 

[TonyWilliams]

$100 in maintenance per year is naive.. expect a new handle every couple of months if you are lucky. Its possible the maintenance will outstrip the utility charges.

Truth be known, there is a sweet spot that would make CHAdeMO with an upgrade to SAE profitable. What that sweet spot is is hard to say, but it comes down to let's say $9,000 equipment, $4,000 electrical work and $1,000 to swap out one of the TEPCO plugs running CHAdeMO for the SAE J1772 L3 when demand indicates.

I also suggest there's a maintenance cost for the station, but I'd guess that may be as little as $100 per year given warranties and other protections the station owner would have against failure. Consider it like an insurance deductible.

Herm, the whole thing is nutty. I like the comment where you "swap out" the parts best. I was thinking of swapping out the Chevy transmission in my car for a Ford one. Shouldn't cost more than $1000.

This "lowball" method to forecasting how much a DC charger should cost is probably going to pop up forever. Most current installations are pushing 6 figures, and the NRG deal with California has "up to $250,000" per installation. Now, granted, those are grossly overpriced due to their respective government "handout" status, however the endless lowball posts are just as unrealistic.

By the way, you can't get the hot water fixed in your house for $100. The plugs still cost THOUSANDS of dollars each, and are the thing most likely to fail / be vandalized / be dropped and driven over. Heck, the maintenance bill on all the Blink DC chargers is likely approaching the cost of the units. Virtually all of them have been broken more than operational.

Depreciation and insurance, of course, aren't even considered in any of these lowball posts. Obsolete equipment either.

FACT CHECK ALERT: I see "TEPCO" frequently quoted, when that is the the Tokyo Power Company. They are a member of CHAdeMO, as are over a hundred other companies. The "plugs" are made by several manufacturers (Yazaki, Sumitomo, etc), none of which are TEPCO. The actual chargers are made by DOZENS of companies, again, none of which are TEPCO.

 

[TimeHorse]

$100 in maintenance per year is naive.. expect a new handle every couple of months if you are lucky. Its possible the maintenance will outstrip the utility charges.

That's the insurance deductible. After the first $100 is paid against the policy there's nothing more to pay.

 

[TimeHorse]

FACT CHECK ALERT: I see "TEPCO" frequently quoted, when that is the the Tokyo Power Company. They are a member of CHAdeMO, as are over a hundred other companies. The "plugs" are made by several manufacturers (Yazaki, Sumitomo, etc), none of which are TEPCO. The actual chargers are made by DOZENS of companies, again, none of which are TEPCO.

CHAdeMO: The communications protocol used by Japanese DC Fast Charging Equipment
TEPCO: The name of the plug shape and form that the CHAdeMO standard uses; it's named after the power company that developed it.

 

[TimeHorse]

This "lowball" method to forecasting how much a DC charger should cost is probably going to pop up forever. Most current installations are pushing 6 figures, and the NRG deal with California has "up to $250,000" per installation. Now, granted, those are grossly overpriced due to their respective government "handout" status, however the endless lowball posts are just as unrealistic.

Okay, we've seen $9,900 units already advertised and surely that price isn't going to go up over time. http://www.greenfleetmagazine.com/n...troduce-ev-quick-charger-that-starts-at-9-900

So we quibble over the electrical work. Can you show me how much it costs to run a 3-phase out to a DC Fast Charge station? I'll be happy to work with those numbers. Blanket, unitemized costs aren't worth looking at because that's not the way the world works. If I'm a business I hire an electrical contractor to bring the 3-Phase out to the station and then I buy the unit and hire the contractor to install it. So maybe $4,000 is a low ball. What do you think? $10,000? Seriously, I want your numbers. As for part replacement, we don't know but more than 10% the original unit cost seems unlikely given again the downward trend in cost over time. Consider just 2 years ago EVSEs cost upwards of $2,000 (ClipperCreek CS-40) and now can be purchased for $700 or less. CHAdeMO may be held back by it's stupid NDA licensing but $9,900 is the cost today. So show me the electrical work cost.

 

[grommet]

The under $10K unit, which is indoor use only, is still vapor and hasn't shipped. The only unit available from Nissan/Sumitomo starts at $15K (without any networking or RFID/access control).

Feel free to find a site, and get a real quote. ;-) http://www.nissanqc.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[DANandNAN]

$100 in maintenance per year is naive.. expect a new handle every couple of months if you are lucky. Its possible the maintenance will outstrip the utility charges.

That's the insurance deductible. After the first $100 is paid against the policy there's nothing more to pay.

You do understand that's not all there is to insurance, right? If you're just driving your parent's car or something it may seem that way, but people pay premiums every month and that total is based on how much damage the insurance company thinks they'll pay every year, includes making a profit how much of the damage the policy holder will cover (deductible - your $100). So, just because station owners "only" pay $100 per incident doesn't mean that's all station owners pay.

Costs of things are going down, but the cost of copper isn't. There's a boatload of copper in the cord, and when copper thieves catch on we'll see those stolen regularly.

I'd also recommend calling and finding out for yourself how much it would cost to install a L3 station. I've done it locally and in California and it's definitely not cheap.

 

[hill]

This "lowball" method to forecasting how much a DC charger should cost is probably going to pop up forever. Most current installations are pushing 6 figures, and the NRG deal with California has "up to $250,000" per installation. Now, granted, those are grossly overpriced due to their respective government "handout" status, however the endless lowball posts are just as unrealistic.

Okay, we've seen $9,900 units already advertised and surely that price isn't going to go up over time. http://www.greenfleetmagazine.com/n...troduce-ev-quick-charger-that-starts-at-9-900 . . . . . . . . . snip . . . . . . .

HONOLULU -- Nissan North America Inc. announced plans to introduce a DC quick charger for electric cars in the U.S. market. The EV charger, which will start at $9,900, is will launch as part of a global collaboration with Sumitomo Corp.

The first installations are planned for early 2012.
. . . . . . . . . . . . . snip

News alert: "Early 2012 has come & gone" remaining question is when, if ever.

. . . . . . . <snip> . . . . I'd also recommend calling and finding out for yourself how much it would cost to install a L3 station. I've done it locally and in California and it's definitely not cheap.

Back around Nashville, there are LOTS of QC's . . . and many are around high carb restaurants (like Cracker Barrel). I'm certain the state of TN practically gives their power away . . . but how is it the initial capitol outlay / maintenance isn't killing QC's in OTHER areas?

.